EP 63 · 2023-08-15 · 1:10:54
600 Units in Cole Harbour & Buying a Competitor — Rob Clinch on Construction Management vs Project Management (Avant Garde CM)
NB builder Rob Clinch on bid risk, the Quest partnership, and Avant Garde's Nova Scotia leap.
⟶ The story, written up — a sharp read with every fact on the record. Or skip straight to the moments that matter, as clips.
// CHAPTERS — TAP TO JUMP THE PLAYER
0:00Sponsor reads: Luminous Labs, Procore, Paisan — Pre-roll partner announcements for Luminous Labs architectural visualization, Procore Technologies, and Paisan Building Products' new facilitation centre.1:07From Bathurst to McGill: hockey and civil engineering — Rob Clinch's backstory — growing up in Northern New Brunswick, playing varsity hockey at McGill at 17, choosing civil engineering, and why engineering is fundamentally problem-solving.4:22The Boston years (1998-2004) — Moving to Boston with his wife Allison during the Big Dig era; high-end residential, retail and school work across the Northeast; Patriots and Red Sox games; then back east to start a family.6:56Starting Avant Garde: resilience and earned opportunities — Meeting his business partner, naively going out on their own, pestering architects and developers who gave them 'not jobs but opportunities to bid', and growing organically.9:15The 10-client rule, restaurants, and a culture built on long-tenure supers — The 80/20 ten-target-clients advice; 15-year repeat clients like Crombie and Plaza Corp; a soft spot for restaurant work (Popeyes for Keel Group, Atelier Tony, Pomodori); 7 superintendents and long-tenure guys like Alan, Chris and Joe who set the culture.13:55Construction management vs project management — CM as a transparent, collaborative process from inception — budgeting from conceptual drawings, lender involvement, why design takes as long as building, and Gold Seal certification over PMP.20:10Risk: low bids, 36-hour prices, and tender-day adrenaline — How he qualifies a left-field low bid and makes the client co-own the decision; sub prices now good for 36 hours ('Mission Impossible bids'); the rush of competitive tender closings.23:59Staying in your lane with developers — Where a CM adds value (cost, constructability, past-project lessons) vs what's not his lane; developers with internal construction teams handing complex jobs to major GCs.26:11NEWS: Quest Capital partnership and a 600-unit Lake Loon project — Current workload — a four-owner professional plaza, ~100 multi-res units underway, ~1,000 units in the CM pipeline; Quest Capital becomes an equity partner sharing office space; two-building 600-unit retirement-living complex at Lake Loon/Cole Harbour breaking ground spring 2024 — AGCM's Nova Scotia entry.31:43The tech stack: Procore, Sage, Revit takeoffs — Five years on Procore with pandemic-era training that paid off; Sage still separate from Procore; estimating via On-Screen Takeoff, Bluebeam, and Revit/Navisworks data extraction with Lydon Lynch Architects.36:14Entering Nova Scotia and the competitive landscape — Building a Halifax sub-trade network from scratch; competing with Halifax-headquartered firms (RCS, Lindsay) in Moncton; healthy competition keeping everyone sharp.40:14Mid-roll sponsors: Freeman Group, Soublier Trinity, Pivot — Partner reads for Freeman Group Financial wealth management, Soublier Trinity drywall and interiors, and Pivot Accounting.41:20Diversification: multi-res bet, healthcare, Class A office — The deliberate move into multi-res 3-4 years ago (6 to 126-unit buildings, wood and concrete); a private OR clinic opening the healthcare door; live-reno office fit-ups for Grant Thornton, BDC, EY and WSP.45:22Heritage properties and renovation risk — Saint John heritage work including a Tim Hortons in a historic building and the stalled St. John Theatre Company Performing Arts Centre (an old courthouse); Boston brownstone roots; 30-40% contingencies and demo-first de-risking.48:44Labour shortage realism — 'You can't muscle your way through it anymore' — subs honestly capping capacity, longer schedules, clients needing to start a year early, and why that discipline is a positive change.51:53Public tenders and the 75/25 balance — Why AGCM mostly skips public work (one-or-two-bidder bulletins, different setup) and targets 75% construction management / 25% competitive tender.54:00Crombie took a chance: the startup grind — How Crombie's early trust (Highfield Square work) led to Sobeys and JDI; no bonding and certified cheques in year one; construction's weak startup culture; loyalty to the guys who were there when teeth got kicked in.59:25NEWS: Acquiring Rice Contracting — Agreement to acquire John Rice's 30-year design-build firm — an authorized Butler dealer strong in industrial and food-service — as a succession deal; Rice operates as its own company with training synergies.1:02:24Working with your spouse — Twelve years working alongside his wife Allison, both engineers; 'she calls me out on a lot of my crap' and commands respect because she earned it.1:04:03Recruitment pipeline and the generational tech shift — Hiring NBCC construction-management grads and internationally trained engineers from India and Nigeria; OpenSpace reality capture; the kids at the office now teach the founders the tools.1:09:28Wrap-up and outro sponsors — Clinch endorses the show's mission of telling regional builders' stories; outro reads for Cook Insurance and FCA Surety.
// THE INTRO
Host Daniel Arsenault sits down in the Halifax studio with Rob Clinch, CEO of Avant Garde Construction Management (Moncton, NB) — from Bathurst hockey kid and McGill civil engineer through Big Dig-era Boston to co-founding AGCM and growing it to ~17 staff. Clinch gives an unusually candid operator's view of construction management vs project management, how he qualifies suspiciously low bids and shares risk with clients, and why sub prices now expire in 36 hours. The episode carries two genuine news disclosures: an equity partnership with developer Quest Capital anchored by a 600-unit retirement-living project at Lake Loon/Cole Harbour (groundbreaking spring 2024), and the acquisition of Rice Contracting as a succession deal that adds design-build capability. It closes on labour shortage realism, NBCC immigrant-engineer hiring, and the Procore/Revit/OpenSpace tech stack.
// THE LESSONS
See all 18 lessons ▸Name the 10 clients you want, spend 80% of business development on them, and keep 20% of the door open.
“just established the 10 people that you want to work with 10 clients”
Early-stage contractors should chase opportunities to bid, not handouts — resilience and pestering earn the chance.
“not giving us jobs but opportunities to bid”
Long-tenured superintendents are the culture: they onboard newcomers and recruit by telling people they are treated well.
“they help establish the culture when new people come in”
Construction management works when owner, design team, CM and lender collaborate transparently from project inception.
“when you collaborate and you're transparent that's when construction management is at its best”
When one sub bid lands far below the field, qualify the risk and make the client co-own the decision to take it.
“do you want to take the risk because I'm not doing it alone”
Sub-trade pricing validity has collapsed to days, making carried numbers in lump-sum bids a live risk to manage.
“my price is good for 36 hours”
A developer equity partnership buys runway and consistency — and signalling that pipeline to employees matters as much as winning it.
“there's a Runway of work for the the next level it's so important for the employees to know that”
Use slowdowns to train: AGCM kept everyone on through the pandemic and invested the downtime in Procore training.
“we invested a lot of time into training and that's paid off now”
Estimating directly from the architect's Revit model turns window counts, cladding and partition takeoffs into quick wins.
“window counts are really quick your cladding materials are quick”
On heritage and renovation work, do the demolition first to see behind the walls before pricing — or carry 30-40% contingency.
“let's get the demo done before we yeah we just see what's behind the walls”
The labour shortage is structural: you can no longer muscle through schedules with nights and weekends — plan longer durations.
“you just can't muscle your way through it anymore”
Subcontractors who honestly cap their capacity up front beat ones who overpromise — it lets the GC manage client expectations.
“the subcontractors are doing better to manage expectations”
Owners must start projects far earlier now: a lease expiring in a year means design and procurement begin today.
“if you're not starting now like it's not going to get done in time”
Pick a delivery-model mix and hold it: AGCM targets 75% construction management, 25% competitive tender, and skips most public work.
“if we can keep that balance of you know 75 construction management 25 competitive tender”
Anchor clients who take a chance on a startup create the flywheel — repay them by never letting them regret it and name-dropping them everywhere.
“they were one of the first people that took a chance”
Acquiring a retiring competitor with aligned values is a growth path: Rice Contracting added design-build capability via a succession deal.
“to find a succession plan for his business so we started talking”
Internationally trained engineers re-credentialed through NBCC's two-year programs are a proven answer to the regional talent gap.
“engineers in their country have taken the two-year program at nbcc”
Adopt reality-capture tools and let young hires run them — 20-somethings make platforms like OpenSpace sing.
“we're using open space for for reality capture on site”
// CLIPS FROM THIS EPISODE
Framework · 3:46
“I think engineering is predominantly problem solving”
Story · 7:49
“there were so many people that were nice to us that took meetings with us”
Framework · 9:09
“somebody gave me some good advice early on”
Emotional · 12:48
“I'm really lucky I've had some long-term guys”
Framework · 15:41
“I would say construction management is a process”
Hot take · 19:11
“It's A Hard Sell when you tell people it's going to take as long to design as to build”
Framework · 20:55
“I think construction management is a bit more shared risk”
Hot take · 22:31
“in the environment we're in now there are no low numbers”
Story · 23:09
“I remember submitting one thinking this is feeling your gut”
Hot take · 24:58
“that's what they're paying for right, they're paying for you”
Story · 28:05
“one of the big projects we're really excited about is in Cole Harbour Westphal”
Story · 32:37
“at Avant Garde we started we were ham and egging it, Excel and fax machines”
Framework · 35:17
“we've hired an estimator recently that has excellent Revit experience”
Framework · 47:31
“it's gonna be tough to price those though right”
Hot take · 48:44
“what are your thoughts on the labor shortage and the current situation”
Hot take · 50:17
“gone are the days where you could put out a tender say it's got to start next week”
Emotional · 54:18
“we were really lucky that we were working with Crombie early on”
Story · 59:37
“we have an agreement in place to acquire Rice Contracting”
Story · 1:06:00
“so many students that are local at NSCC, engineering students”
All 18 lessons from this episode, on one page.
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// FEATURED BUSINESSES
Avant Garde Construction and Management Inc.
A construction management, project management and general contracting firm serving the commercial and …
Crombie Real Estate Investment Trust
A publicly traded Canadian real estate investment trust (TSX: CRR.UN) that owns, operates, and develop…
Rice Contracting Ltd.
Commercial general contractor offering general construction, design-build, and construction management…
// FACT-CHECKED ✓ web-verified, with sources
✓ VERIFIED
AGCM agreed to acquire Rice Contracting as a succession deal — Rice is a 30-year authorized Butler dealer with design-build capability
Acquisition confirmed finalized February 22, 2024 (announced post-episode recording in August 2023). Rice Contracting founded 1992, making it 31 years old at acquisition — 'over 30 years' is accurate. Butler dealer since 2002, confirmed as largest in Atlantic Canada. John Rice is confirmed founder/s…
SOURCE ▸// COMPANIES & ORGS ✓ verified
Avant-Garde Construction & Management Inc. ▸Quest CapitalRice Contracting Ltd. ▸Loon Lake Retirement LivingCrombie Real Estate Investment Trust ▸
// PROJECTS NAMED
Loon Lake Retirement LivingSt. John Theatre Company Performing Arts Centre (old courthouse conversion)Highfield Square (Moncton)Big Dig (Boston)Professional plaza with oral surgery / orthodontic / physiotherapy fit-upsPopeyes Saint JohnGrant Thornton live-renovation office fit-upTim Hortons heritage-building fit-up (Saint John)
SOURCE: podscope · public episode data · py9rl0yCoe4