600 Units in Cole Harbour & Buying a Competitor — Rob Clinch on Construction Management vs Project Management (Avant Garde CM)

0:00Our team at the Atlantic Construction Podcast is excited to announce our newest partner, Luminous Labs. Luminous Labs is the leading provider of architectural visualizations for developers, homeowners, architects, and more. Luminous Labs has a team of experienced designers and visualizers using cutting-edge technology to bring your 3D renderings to life. Using these architectural visualizations will give you a sense of scale, space, and design, allowing you to make informed decisions about your projects before construction even begins. These high-end architectural visualizations are a perfect tool for presentations, marketing materials, and

0:34design reviews, allowing you to communicate your vision to stakeholders, clients, and more. We'd like to thank our co-branded partner Procore Technology. Procore Technologies is the global leader in construction management software. We look forward to having many guests from across the country from all different capacities under the Procore partnership umbrella. We'd like to thank our formal partner Paisan Building Products. Paisan has a sixty-thousand-square-foot facilitation centre currently underway, as well as having acquired a new location in Windsor. Lots of change and big news with Paisan, and we look

1:06forward to having them back on the podcast in the near future. Okay, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Very pleased to have our guest today — another fine guest from New Brunswick. We have Rob Clinch, CEO of Avant-Garde Construction Management. Thanks so much, Rob, for making the trip over and being with us in the studio. It's my pleasure. Yeah, it's a beautiful day in Halifax today, nice time to visit. It is! Great day for a drive. Yeah, perfect. We were chatting earlier just about your time at McGill University and

1:37a little bit your backstory of working in Boston for a while and then back over to Moncton for your first gig before you started Avant-Garde with your partner. Maybe just, for our audience, give us a little backstory. Yeah, I was — I'm from Northern New Brunswick, I grew up in Bathurst, and I left there to go to McGill University. I was studying engineering. I was fortunate enough I played hockey my first two years there, so that was kind of the

2:00opportunity that got me in. Yeah, I played a lot of centre. Yeah. So there'll be some good hockey talk. It was good. I mean, I was really young for university — 17, just turning 18 when I got there. A lot of the players were just coming out of the QMJHL, so it was fun. I did it for the first two years I was there and then thought, now we gotta talk hockey. Yeah, that's it.

2:25Yeah, that's right. You went to McGill, so you were a Habs fan before — I was a Habs fan, and when I went there I went full Canadiens fan. Do you still play any hockey? I just stopped probably three years ago. I stopped after I finished university, stopped for probably about eight or nine years, then I started playing pickup in and around Moncton, met some great guys, played hockey with them. And then my girls are all into Ringette, so I'm spending a bunch of time at the rink with them and

2:52I was helping to coach, so it was just enough rink time — like six or seven times a week. So when you're at McGill, you're studying civil engineering, right? But were you thinking at the time, playing hockey at a pretty high level, were you thinking at all that you might go somewhere past university? I think that's why I stopped. Yeah. You knew it wasn't going to happen. The best-case scenario would have been something maybe down the road, but it just didn't feel like it was ever going to

3:15go past university. I really liked what I was studying. I had some great opportunities in the summer and I was pretty sure where I wanted to head after a couple of years in engineering, heading towards construction. So no, the hockey track was quickly diminished. Civil engineering — do you think, talking to a lot of different people in the industry who might have a mechanical background, or for students choosing their major in engineering, how has that served you?

3:45I think engineering is predominantly problem-solving. Whether it's civil or mechanical — it's just analytical thinking. It's breaking down what's known and what's unknown, and how do you solve it. For me, I enjoyed structures, I enjoyed the civil component of it. Some people enjoy the mechanical component — they want moving parts and to build things. It's the same thing with electrical, computer, mining, metallurgical — there are all kinds of disciplines of engineering. But I think if you've got an aptitude for

4:16analytical thinking and you want to apply that, I think it's a great direction. Yeah, thanks for that. So — Boston, right after that? Boston right after that. At the time — well, not right after. After I graduated, I spent a year in Bathurst, and it just wasn't ready to stay there. And Allison, who's my wife, was my girlfriend at the time. We were living in different cities and just said, let's just try something. And we had

4:44no plan. We were initially thinking we were going to head across Canada, and then at the last kind of eleventh hour she had an opportunity to go to a job interview in Boston. I went down with her — she was successful in her job search. I was able to quickly find a job right after that with a construction company, so we were both doing what we wanted to do in a city that we loved. We had such a great time down there and worked on great projects. At the time it was the

5:10Big Dig era in Boston, so there was lots of engineering work. What year was that? 1998 to 2004. The years we spent — I remember some of the major projects in the city. Yeah, a lot of high-end residential is what the company I worked for specialized in. I did some retail work, I did some school work, and I was working anywhere from Pennsylvania up through Maine, New Hampshire, and all along the Eastern Seaboard, Northeast United States. So I traveled a little bit. Most of the

5:40work was centred around the greater Boston area. Yeah. Boston — it's a great sports city. It is, great sports. Now you got some football games? I went to everything. Yeah, that was kind of the short-notice ticket guy anyway. I got tickets to something and the guys who wanted to meet the guy — they'd give me their tickets. So I would say probably four or five Patriots games a year, twenty Red Sox games. And when we were down there, people used to come visit all the time — we

6:03were still pretty young, lots of friends coming down, never been to Boston before, we had a place to stay. We just had a great time. Yeah, it sounds like a ball. It was just — great job, you're getting the work experience you need, you're young, you're living it. Yeah, we were both lucky. We both got on with great companies and stayed with those companies the whole time we lived there. We didn't move. We had a great network of friends and

6:23it was just, for that period of our lives, I couldn't have imagined anything being more fun. And it gave us some experience as well. That's awesome. And as you made your way back east after that? Yeah, so we decided that we wanted to be a little closer to the east coast. We were planning to have a family and wanted to be closer. My parents are still up in Bathurst, Allison's family lives in Truro, so everybody was pretty close. And so we decided to

6:48make the move, and ended up living and working — lived in the area, worked in Moncton, and started from there. Yeah. And it wasn't long after that — maybe six months, a year, a year and a half or so — before you and your former business partner started Avant-Garde? Right, we met through the company that we were both working at, and just decided that we shared a lot of the same values, we shared a lot of the same work ethic, and

7:13thought we could just — if we're gonna do it, then was the time. We just decided, probably naively, to go and give it a try. What's it like for you now, having built over the last sixteen, nineteen years a company that's well established — you've got all kinds of complex projects under your belt in New Brunswick — and look back now and think of when you first kind of stuck your nose out as an entrepreneur and took the

7:43risk? To reflect back now — not if you didn't know then what you know now, but — I think I'm cognizant of it. I find that I'm very sympathetic to people that are just starting out. How else do you learn? But also, there were so many people that were nice to us — that took meetings with us, whether it was architects or developers — because they knew you were local, because they knew you were trying, because they knew you

8:06were, and sometimes just because we pestered them enough. You've got to be resilient. Yeah, knocking on doors — this is what we can do — and people just started giving us opportunities. Not giving us jobs, but opportunities to bid. And then we just started, and it was just the two of us for a while, and then we started hiring site superintendents, and we just started growing organically.

8:31Slowly. Yeah, very nimble. Can you remember any milestones, say two, three, five years in, where maybe you're focusing on a certain type of project — bidding multi-res only, or retail fit-ups — where was there any kind of milestone project or decision that kind of opened the doors for a new look, or the next level? Is anything kind of — that's a good question. It was just always a slow process,

9:03right? Just kind of slowly kept the client base that we had. We knew we wanted to work with — I guess somebody gave me some good advice early on: just establish the ten people that you want to work with, ten clients. Eighty percent of your time working to do work for those ten clients, and leave a little bit of the door open for anybody. So that was it — the twenty percent. And we were very good at that. Are you still

9:27working — I know sometimes I cut people off when I'm getting into this conversation — but are you still working with any of those first clients now? Oh yeah, yeah, all of them. Some of them, yeah. It's interesting — you did projects fifteen years ago and the lease is being renewed on the space for the tenant that you did a fit-up for fifteen years ago. It makes you feel old, but it's also very gratifying to say, okay, we've been stuck together this long. Yeah, let's do

9:55it again. Yeah. And so that's been really fun. There are great developers in Atlantic Canada. We do work for companies like Crombie and Plaza Corp. Car dealerships for you? Yeah, the REITs are very good, the dealerships, yeah. We're doing car dealerships. And I always have a soft spot for restaurants — I don't know why, I think I'd like to cook, so I always appreciate people that are doing restaurant work. Yeah, you just finished a couple, I

10:21think I saw in New Brunswick. I'm trying to think of the chain of restaurants. Yeah, so in terms of chains, we've got a Popeyes under construction for Keel Group, and I don't think I've ever eaten

10:38at one. Yeah, they've been doing — they opened the one in Halifax, they've got one open in Moncton, we're doing the one in Saint John, they've got other projects in Fredericton, so they're growing. And it's fun to see. We've done work for local restaurants like Atelier Tony, Pomodori Pizza — just fun ones. And then older projects that have been around for a while, like Tide & Boar — always one of the favourites. Yeah, we did that. And I know they recently — is there a Tide & Boar here

11:03in Halifax? I don't know if there is or not. I'm thinking of something else — they may be, no. They're just on Main Street in Moncton. Anyway, that's probably twelve years ago now. Great spot. Yeah. Just kind of a mix of everything. And my kids get annoyed — we drive around different cities and I'm pointing to stuff: yeah, we built that, or we worked on that, or we know these people. Yeah, so a new restaurant opens and we're going — it's like, Dad, did you

11:30work on this? Front-facing clients as a construction management project manager, sometimes the GC — those relationships, that's going to be satisfying, right? Once the project's turned over and handed over, and you can say that — yeah, you're confidently eating what they're serving. Yeah, then you go eat there. That's — that's the final — yeah, nail in the coffin. Analogy, but yeah, exactly. So you guys have obviously evolved so much. I think eleven employees now — I think Avant-Garde would

12:04be up to eighteen now. Okay, yeah. So maybe we need to update our website. That's right. We've hired a few people in the last six months and we've been able to keep our core. So I think we're maybe seventeen or eighteen now. That's a mix of site superintendents, estimating crew, finance and admin team, and project managers. I think we're seventeen now. Yeah. How many site supers? How many superintendents? So

12:33at Avant-Garde we have seven superintendents. Yeah. And then we'd have three project managers, and then finance and admin would be two or three people. Yeah. That's such a crucial position, right? Yeah, I'm really lucky. I've had some long-term guys, and they're passionate about the construction, they're passionate about the company. Guys — I'll give their names out here in case they listen — like Alan and Chris, who have been over fourteen years with us and have

13:08grown. I've watched their families grow, they've watched our families grow. We've always stuck together. And project managers — I've got people like Joe, who's been with me for I think thirteen or fourteen years now. So they help establish the culture when new people come in — they know that that's the core of people. And I'm just really lucky that they're as passionate as they are about the people that they work for. Yeah, it's interesting — they help establish the culture because these guys are kind of the

13:34cornerstones of your business, right? The core guys. Yeah. Trust levels for them — they're treated well. I think the people coming in see that they're treated well, they'll tell people that they're treated well. Yeah, and that means a lot to people when you're trying to recruit new people. So it's very helpful, and I'm very grateful that they've been able to be with us that long. Yeah. One of the things I thought about when knowing that you were coming over from New

14:01Brunswick was — I think a lot of our listeners are owners, developers, architects, obviously many different backgrounds that are tuning in and taking part. A lot of site workers too, other apprentices, any of the trades. I just wanted to kind of pick apart the difference between construction management and project management, because I think the terms get thrown around. And if you're not in that client matrix where, like yourself, you have project managers working and

14:38you're bidding and consulting on these different scenarios right from the top down — the difference between project management: is it as simple as, we're involved in the budgeting, the design, the schedule, and then the construction as well? It's kind of more holistic. Construction is just looking after the construction. The different risk levels — let me talk about that a little bit, because you've got six or seven site supers, three project managers — comparing it to a lot of

15:09the kind of work that happens in real Nova Scotia here. I've worked on some of these projects where — not major projects, not overly complex at all, basic builds — but there might be a hundred or a couple hundred thousand in the budget for just one site super/project manager. And because you only have the one position there and the project is a certain size — you need, it's almost at the threshold where you kind of need both, you know? Yeah, I hope

15:40that makes sense — it's long-winded. I would say construction management is a process. It's the team and the life cycle of the project, the critical path. When it works really well, the developer, the owner, the architectural design team, and the construction manager work together from inception of the project — just to say, okay, what's the end result and how do we get there — so that it's a viable project that meets the cost objectives, meets the functional program, and can be delivered

16:13on the expected schedule. If everybody's working together on that process — for our team, that involves myself from a leadership perspective to meet with the clients and work through the process; it involves our estimating team; it involves our project management group. And everybody's working — the outside architect, the outside consultants, engineers. So they're looking at — you get a thirty-three percent set of drawings, or even a conceptual set of drawings, because a lot of times we're involved with the lenders and how do we borrow

16:43the money to build this project and what is it going to cost. So you're helping the client with the funding. Exactly. So you're looking at the conceptual drawings, you present a budget to the client, to the architectural team — everybody's got experience, everybody understands what we're trying to do — and does it make sense? If you're looking at it and presenting it as X dollars per square foot, or if it's multi-res, X number of dollars per unit, everybody has a chance to

17:09say, okay, what did you carry for this, what are we doing for this? You review the scope — does the budget match the scope? Can we send this to the lender? And then the lender will give the developer the appetite for borrowing the funds. And that's become as big a process now as the design is — how do we get it funded? Developers are having challenges. It's different means to borrow the money, and everybody's transparent about it. When

17:35it's — when you collaborate and you're transparent — that's when construction management is at its best. And it adds value to the team and to the people that are going to be the end users. Do you have a PMP designation? I don't, no. But you do have — I'm Gold Seal certified. Yes. And I'm not trying to pick it apart, I just remember from your profile. No, I've — I'm Gold Seal certified in project management. We've got another project

18:00manager that's Gold Seal certified. We've got three people actively working on their Gold Seal designation for project management. And so yeah, it's a program that I believe in. I think it's certainly something that we would encourage everybody to get, especially as you're younger in the business — it's something to achieve. It's a combination of experience and continuing education, which is the right kind of designation, I think. Yeah, because these are all — like you just explained, you're involved from inception of

18:29gathering funding, budgeting, working with architects and design engineers on that side. These are complex relationships that you're trying to manage. And I think it's interesting for guys and girls who are working on site sometimes to hear a little bit of a deep dive into that, just to understand what it takes to get these projects to the point where — okay, now it's time, we need a labour force — and there's the labour shortage. Just a little

19:04understanding of both sides, or what does a consultant do. A lot of people — you hear the jokes about consultants — but it's a hard sell when you tell people that it's going to take as long to design the project as it is to build it. Maybe longer, or sometimes longer. Yeah. And that's where — it's putting ideas on paper. Because you get the plans on site and you're looking through the cut-throughs and the details and assemblies and everything.

19:30You hear the saying, somebody dreamed this up, now I gotta build it. It's just different mentalities. I've been on both sides, but yeah, it's actually not that easy to get that set of drawings to you, right? No. And I think that's one of the benefits of the construction management process as well — if you're using that process, you're not getting a set of plans without the understanding of how you got to that point. Yeah, you understand the reasoning, you've had your input

19:55to say — maybe, what are some options, whether related to cost or constructability? You've had your say, your kick at the can during the process. So you're not getting a set of plans and saying, what were they thinking? You were part of that process. Yeah, yeah. What about the topic of risk? I think — I don't want to compare contracting to gambling, everything's a gamble, getting out of bed is a gamble, but these larger

20:26firms — anyone in business is taking a certain level of risk, and it's so important to measure the risk as much as possible. There are always going to be variables that are unknowns. It's part of the fun, it's part of the hell you have to go through if it doesn't work out. But if you compare project management to construction management on certain projects, what comes to mind for you as far as — I think there's more reward even too, right. I think construction management is

20:57a bit more shared risk, I think it's more transparent. So if you put a job out for tender and you've got four bids coming in on a certain trade, and one of the bids is just too low — it's lower than your in-house estimate, it's lower than the three other people that bid, and they're confident they have it — if I was bidding the job competitively, I wouldn't carry that number. And that's what I tell the client. I said, if we want the one number that's totally left field, so

21:22it's just out in left field — it's a risk to the project. I think you explain the risk, you qualify it as best you can, and then you work with the client to say, do you want to take the risk? Because I'm not doing it alone. And you have to ask the client first, because they're going to say, well, if you're going to save two hundred thousand on that scope, why not? I think they hire you for your opinion, and I think that means a lot. I don't have anybody

21:42that says — some of them will say, well, why did you invite them? Well, we've done a lot of work with them. But I think they're awesome — that's the right number. And if we want to take a chance, or maybe it's a new contractor that's come on board, you try to work with them on the pricing. You don't want to see people get stung, but you want to deliver the project at the best price you can for your

22:01client. So I think you just tell them — maybe we work with this guy, it's going to be a little bit more work on our end just to make sure that this company is on time or that they have the right resources. And if you're willing to take the risk, then we're certainly willing to manage it for you. On the design-bid-build format, you probably don't take those risks as much, because it's exactly that — you

22:25have twenty-something sub-trades bidding on the project, and every time you carry a low number — especially in the environment we're in now, where prices are good for no more than five days. And you see, like, my price is good for thirty-six hours. It feels like you're getting bids from a Mission Impossible movie — you're gonna read this bid and then it's gonna self-destruct. So you've got to really manage your risk carefully. When you've been in business a long time

22:50you have great relationships with subcontractors who've been at it with you for a number of years, and you tend to maybe want to stay a little safer with the people you know you can rely on and trust. And at the same time you still want to be low. Yeah, it's always a balance. But do you — that's a tough sleep? Well, most nights. Yeah. There's a few — a few how-do-you-do-that nights. If you're nervous and you're like, oh God, I remember

23:16submitting one thinking — this is just a gut feeling, just like, I can't believe I bid that job. Why did I bid it that low? And then they called me the next day and said I was fifth of five bidders — everybody had gone low. It was a good job. Right, really? Yeah. I was nervous and didn't sleep well. I knew we were like the highest. Yeah. So you just never know. It's part of — it's

23:38always tender-closing days on competitive tenders — it's still a rush after all these years. You still have people scrambling, and everybody waits till the last half hour to send in their bids, and you're just hustling to put your best number forward. Yeah, I still get a rush out of it. I still find it really fun. That's great to hear. So when you're working with some — on the transparency side, sometimes the difference

24:09between the finance side and the construction side — maybe it's best if everybody does what they're specialized in, kind of thing. Does it happen — it's got to happen at times where they're not as lenient to let you manage your expertise. I'm not asking for specific examples — it's just, is that always — I mean, you try to stay in your lane as much as you can. And every once in a while everybody kind of

24:39has that opportunity to say, you know, what about this? You have the benefit of past projects where a different option might have worked, and you want to present that. Or maybe some of the challenges you had in a previous project were from something similarly designed. I think that's the value you add. Yeah, that's what they're paying for. They're paying for you. Yeah, I'm not picking colours, I'm not picking materials, I'm not telling them whether it's wood flooring or carpet. Yeah, I

25:06can tell you what it costs, but it's not my lane to say this is going to look great. Right. And what I guess I'm getting at is — you'll see that a lot here, and I'm sure in New Brunswick to some extent too — some of the larger, more complex jobs in Halifax where certain developers have their own internal construction team, and they're getting so complex that they're handing those out to major GCs. Right. SCM or SGC. Yeah. Because it's just at a point

25:30where someone has to handle the construction while the developer handles all of their — wrapping their arms around it that way. Yeah. When a developer starts a conversation, it's usually, I do these myself, but I think it's a little bigger than what my crew can handle. You're always — well, how is this going to fit? Because they're not going to stop doing what they do, and we're going to bring our expertise to the table. It's worked out sometimes, but we

25:52don't see it a lot. If you're either developing or doing your own construction — some people are doing that quite successfully. And other people are just comfortable with an owner's rep or somebody in their company that can lead the construction and work with the general contractors, and it works really well. So right now with Avant-Garde in New Brunswick — you mentioned car dealerships, lots of retail and restaurant construction, fit-ups. I think you just finished a

26:21mall — yeah, we did a professional plaza. In the plaza in Chipman. Yeah, that was a great project. We did the construction of the building and then all of the fit-up work. There's an oral surgery centre, an orthodontic clinic, a physiotherapy clinic. So you did all the tenants too? Is it one owner? Four different owners. Okay. If you managed to get in there and — yeah, everyone. So we were doing a good job and there was a connection between all the

26:45companies — it's all similar professional services businesses. And yeah, we managed all of them. But that's good for mobilizing, right? Yeah, you're there, you know the building. And we had a great site super on the project who was able to build the building and then all of the subsequent tenant finishes. So that was a great project. The last — I think we're doing, just getting ready to start the last nineteen-hundred square feet for another

27:13— that's the dental? No, it's more of an — esthetician? We're going to say esthetician. It's not the right word. It's

27:29— there it is. Okay, yeah. So those have been good. And we've got probably close to a hundred units under construction right now from the multi-res space in and around Moncton. And with a couple of other projects we're working on in the pipeline on construction management deals, we've got close to a thousand units that we're building — most in and around Moncton for several different developers. Most of this work — there are some from a couple of different developers, but the bulk of it is for

28:00Quest Capital. Okay. And their — yeah. So one of the big projects we're really excited about is in the Cole Harbour/Westphal area, near Lake Loon. How many units? You're at like six hundred units? Yeah, it's a big building — it's two big buildings. And they've recently got their development agreement approved and just submitted for the development permit. It's two separate structures — two separate structures with some walkway connections, but two independent buildings. So will these be two of the

28:30bigger projects you've done? For sure, yeah, certainly. And we've just recently finalized a partnership with Quest Capital, where they're partners now in our business. And we're doing construction management for them on their multi-res work. So we've been working with them now for the last eighteen months. We've formalized an agreement to partner with them. They've got project work in and around a lot of the land in Dieppe that's currently being developed or ready to be developed, and also the big

29:03project at Lake Loon, which is a retirement-living complex. So that'll be the first project in Nova Scotia we've done actively. We've done a few here and there, but just when developers we were working for asked us to. We haven't actively sought out opportunities in Nova Scotia. So we're working on building our team to get them ready in Nova Scotia. I think there are lots of construction management firms in Nova Scotia that'll be — we'll be keeping an eye on these two three-hundred-unit buildings that you've got

29:33going. That's — so it's great, it's exciting. It's obviously the opportunity that brings us here, and that's where we're starting. What a great start. Yeah, no, we're really excited about it. So are these in the design phase? What's the groundbreaking? We're expecting to break ground in the spring of 2024. Okay. The development agreement was approved in the spring, and the development permit is being issued imminently. And we'll work on costing with the architectural group — they'll

30:02work on design development, full project management, full construction management. So they're a partner in your business? They're a partner in the business now. So they were looking for some consistency, and had debated about building their own team internally. We were pretty excited about what they were doing and had done a good job for them on other projects, and just saw the synergy. We really worked well together in project management. And so we actually share office space now. We've

30:27moved into a shared space in December — shared space with them and their team. And they're working — they've got really exciting plans, land secured, and are at different phases of a lot of different work. So for you — obviously had a great journey with your former partner with Avant-Garde Construction Management — and then to have this relationship established and this large project on the go. Just peace of mind — there's

30:57got to feel pretty satisfying. I think it's just where it's headed and where it's at, and it's exciting for everyone. Not saying just you, but yeah. There's a runway of work for the next level. It's so important for the employees to know that too — so they know that there's a lot of work there. And it wasn't always like that — you never really knew. Sometimes I can remember times when you're wondering, like, what's coming next? I've got

31:22nothing for this guy in two months. So peace of mind for sure, the consistency from there. And they like what we're doing. I think we've got the right people, we've got the right technology, we're at the right size for a great partnership. So it's been a good start and it's really just getting started, and we're really happy about it. Amazing. You mentioned technology — one of the partners of our show is Procore. When did you integrate Procore into your operations?

31:52So we started — I would say five years ago. Okay. And we were getting into it, and very fortunate that a couple of people in the company took the lead. We had probably used it before — I was involved with a project as an owner's rep for a group that had used it and got a taste of it that way. And then it's everywhere now. Yeah, of course. I was able to visit with them at their booth at

32:16Construct Canada. Got pretty excited about it and really just felt it was the right fit for where we were as a business. What others did you consider — like Fieldwire, other options? I don't remember at this point. I had some experience with Primavera and some of those programs when I worked for a GC in Boston. And then at Avant-Garde we started — we just were ham-and-egging it, like yeah, Excel and

32:40yeah, and fax machines and whatever. So it worked really well. And it's allowed us to grow the business with a set standard for document control, data management, and field reporting. It's been really good for us. During the pandemic, when things slowed down at the beginning, we chose to keep everybody on board, and we invested a lot of time into training. And that's paid off now — we've got users in the company that really know how to use all the features.

33:11They're able to work with the field teams. So it's been a great fit for us. Do you have it fully integrated with the finance side of the business as well? No, but if there's anybody out there that knows how — we're working towards that. Well, we've had other companies on the show and — that's a big undertaking. I think it is. Whether or not it's worth it at the end of the day once

33:36it's done — I think the transition is a big task, and we found that out pretty quickly when we looked at it. It's not as easy as pressing a button. There's got to be data matching to sync from one platform to the other. So right now we do it separately with Sage and Procore, and there's some duplication. But what about estimating? Same thing. Well, we're using a lot of different programs.

34:01We consolidate everything. There's a new estimating module for Procore — they didn't always have this. Yeah. So we've done the demo and are probably going to jump to that platform soon. We use On-Screen Takeoff for quantification. Is that PlanSwift? Is that Bluebeam? Similar to Bluebeam. We have one guy that's very comfortable with Bluebeam, so we have some that use On-Screen Takeoff. We have some that still use the metric measuring

34:28rollers. But we're extracting data now — we're working with an architectural team on some of these projects with Quest that's drawing in Revit. We're able to — we're working with Lydon Lynch. Okay, so Halifax. They're providing us with the model. We're able to extract data from the Revit model, quantify it in Revit and Navisworks, and then use that for estimating. Yeah. And so we've got all these different platforms that we're using to send out

34:57bids — to quantify, to collect, and then compile subcontractor pricing. And then it still ends up in an Excel spreadsheet. We just haven't found a better way to do it. I don't know if there are all that many people that are estimating from Revit. But it's interesting — yeah, we're seeing that more and more. We've done some training, and then we've hired an estimator recently that has excellent Revit experience. And so when we got the model, all of a sudden

35:25window counts are really quick, your cladding materials are quick, your partition types are quick — it's pretty impressive. Big-time savers. So when we're looking at these bigger projects now, it's still a big undertaking especially on the conceptual estimates, but we're getting enough data from the design team that it's working really well. And I'm sure with a lot of your repeat sub-trades that you're working with throughout New Brunswick, they're

35:52used to Procore at this point anyway, especially having been working with you. Yeah, they've got to do it — submittals are there, their contracts are there. So there's familiarity. Most of our competitors are using it. We're seeing it become more of the industry standard. I think it is the industry standard for most of the companies that compete with us. Great. So I think I was going to ask — when you do this project

36:18in Nova Scotia — not your first, but a major project obviously — you'll be looking outside of your current network of sub-trades in the near future certainly. Is that something — yeah, it's something that we've started already. Right, yeah. I mean, we're not naive — the runway of work in Halifax is probably bigger than it is in Moncton, and we're seeing a lot of backlog of work. So yeah, we're working to develop these relationships, and we're going to continue to work to develop these

36:45relationships. I think it's an exciting project. It's not necessarily downtown, you know, there's — right, yeah. But it is in the HRM. Kind of in this area. Yeah, no, for sure. You know, it's one of the challenges that we'll have, but one that I think we're up to. And we know there are lots of great contractors here, and we've got a great project. So we're going to promote that as much as we can. And I don't know if it's

37:10a concern, but I think it's one that we can manage. And yeah, it's a great opportunity. Well, it's a great project — contractors aren't going to turn down a project like that with a good-reputation company like yourself. Yeah, we're not — it's tough to — you can meet with somebody and they're not sure who you are. Hopefully they're listening to this podcast. Yeah, one of the benefits.

37:38So yeah, no, it's going to be challenging, but at the same time it's exciting and we're up for it for sure. And in the same regard with logistics, supplies, materials — it's kind of maybe the same situation there. I mean, New Brunswick's not that far, right? In some sense it's the same — it's the same land mass. You could say the Moncton-to-Halifax corridor is not that far. And there are some opportunities — contractors from everywhere from Moncton to the HRM. What can you say about the New Brunswick market as far as competition? I'm thinking of

38:04know, contractors from everywhere from Moncton to the HRM. What can you say about the New Brunswick market as far as competition? I'm thinking of retail construction companies that might be Maritimes-wide, whether it's Rice or RCS, companies like this. Is there a certain type of project where you've got your niche with certain clients, but if they're public tenders you might stay away from them? Not doing as much GC work — especially with Avant-Garde — like you

38:33know, you're taking a different approach here. You're taking a unique approach and kind of bypassing a lot of the — bottom feeder, for lack of a better term — or lump-sum bidding. And building these client relationships is what you're all about. So you're not that concerned about competing on the general tender side. Yeah, you know, yeah. Competing — stipulated price or construction management. A lot of the competition that we have in Moncton is companies with

39:01headquarters in Halifax that have offices set up in and around Moncton. You mentioned RCS and Lindsay's. They don't have — but we see them — for certain developers. And that's the kind of work that we like, it's the kind of developer we like. And we'll compete against them because they're structured the same way we are — we know what we're doing, they're managing it in a similar format. And yeah, you can be competitive with them. And that's

39:24always a pretty tight game. Yeah, it is tight, and you never know on all levels. Yeah, it's competitive and it's good — it keeps everybody sharp in your company. You know, it keeps your subcontractor network growing and you find people. It's a healthy mix. I don't think you want to be one hundred percent construction management. You still want to keep yourself diversified. And so we're lucky we do that, because — depending on the trade, some trades are maybe more

39:53diplomatic than others. But you do see a lot of the sub-trades in the local market here in Halifax and Nova Scotia — they'll talk to each other. There's a lot of market out there. That happens sometimes, sometimes it doesn't. Is there the same kind of thing happening between you and some of the competition — is there much conversation? Not really, not at that level. We'd like to welcome our newest partner here at the Atlantic Construction Podcast —

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41:21competitors at events and it's cordial — you know, how you doing, yeah, you got me on this one, I got you on this one. Yeah. So I have a lot of respect for the people that are doing what you do. And ideally there's enough work for everyone. And you want to continue to grow your market and they're trying to do the same thing, and you just do it the best way you know how. There's never

41:45going to be just one company to survive — so as long as you've got good competition, it's good for developers, it's good for subcontractors. Yeah. And I think in Moncton we've got a really good balance right now. Yeah. And you've done a lot of multi-res — forty to sixty unit kind of complexes all throughout Moncton, New Brunswick? Yeah, anywhere in New Brunswick — we're only in New Brunswick. So we've got, as small as a six to eight unit. We've done a thirty-six, a forty-two. We've got, yeah, you

42:08know, up to — we've got one we're getting ready to start at a hundred and twenty-six units. We're doing wood construction, we're doing concrete construction. We've got the trades that have the expertise in those fields. It's exciting. We've got a lot of multi-res. About three or four years ago we made the decision to really try to invest and get in that space, and it's paid off. We've got not only our partners at

42:32Quest, who have very aggressive plans for growth in our area, but there are other developers that we've been able to work with and deliver projects successfully for, and that just generates new opportunities. They see your sign and it's a booming market. Yeah. I remember talking to different guests on the show from the GC/CM perspective, and they were tackling different types of projects — like

43:04wastewater treatment facilities, airports, healthcare projects — more complex or just very different types of projects. And they'd tackle anything as long as they had a precedent for it somewhere in North America. If they'd done a similar job in the southern United States and it looked a lot the same, and they had a template for it and they completed it, then they'd give it a shot. And it's all about having that resume, having the experience, and the peace of

43:34mind knowing that yeah, we've done something like this before. So you want to get a couple under your belt. Yeah. I think we're probably in that category as well. I wouldn't say we specialize in any one area. We just recently finished a private OR clinic in Moncton. We've been doing a lot of dental clinic and orthodontic work — that's classified as healthcare. Yeah, yeah, healthcare. And that involved getting an opportunity to do a private OR clinic,

44:01and that's been successful. So that kind of leads you to — what are some other opportunities? We've got some opportunities now in the healthcare space. I think, like you say, once you've got one — you kind of have to get your feet wet with one, at the right risk level. Fortunately for us, it was a developer that we knew and a medical team that we had worked with before, so they were comfortable with us, we were comfortable with them. And we worked

44:27with a design team that had the expertise in that space and delivered a great project. So that opens up opportunities. We've got enough portfolio in office space — we've done some of the nicest Class A office space. Grant Thornton was a great client, and that job went really well. It was a live renovation where we had to do swing space for them. They were renovating a floor,

44:53moving to another — oh, it makes it tough. Those are tough nights. Yeah, some night work. And it's an occupied building, not just for their staff but for the three floors above it and the three floors below it. So that went really well. Companies like BDC, Ernst & Young, engineering companies like WSP — we've done a lot of nice office space. We've done some work for some of the banking institutions. So we've got a good network on that.

45:22Any heritage properties? Heritage — we were knee-deep in heritage properties, especially in Saint John in the uptown core. The theatre company — does that fall under that? No — that's not a heritage? Yes, that is. Yeah, you're in there, but you're waiting on — we're waiting on that, yeah, just for that project to go. We had been working with the design team. I think the pandemic slowed that one down, but the intention is that it'll go forward. And that's the

45:46Performing Arts Centre for the St. John Theatre Company. It's a fantastic project, a great team — a hundred-and-some-year-old building, right? Yeah, it's an old courthouse that we're converting into a Performing Arts Centre. So it's been on the table for a while, and it's going to go — we're just waiting for everything to come together for them. But we have done work with them, with that crew, the team at the St. John Theatre Company, before. And they're great people and

46:13they're passionate about what they do. They really do a great job in Saint John in that space, and we're really excited for that one to go. That's great. So any other heritage property projects that stand out to you that you've been involved in the past? I mean, there's got to be a lot of effort, a lot of protocol. You see construction styles and you're like, you

46:34don't know — how are you going to get this stuff, going to replicate this corner, going to line up these floors between these two buildings? But there's a lot of — we did — way back when — a Tim Hortons in a historic property in Saint John. That wasn't easy. You can't do it to normal Tim Hortons standards within the heritage building. Within the heritage building — was the design a typical Tim Hortons? It was, but

47:00you had to maintain the facade of the heritage building and keep a lot of the properties of it. So we've had a lot of interesting projects over the years in that space. And the background was that in Boston I did a ton of it — we were working on brownstones on Commonwealth Ave and Mass Ave and in downtown Boston, and it was just a logistical nightmare. Buildings that were — it was just

47:25but you just got it done. And there was something — so many great people that you met that were experiencing it. It's going to be tough to price those, though, right? On the estimating side you've got to add a contingency of thirty or forty percent just to make sure you're safe. You just never know what you're going to find. So now, as much as we can, when we're doing renovation work — whether it's historical or not — let's get the demo done first. We just see what's behind the walls.

47:49And the structure is there — just eliminate a lot of the guessing we're going to have to do. Because then you've got to fit systems in — whether it's ductwork, or how we're going to get the lights running, how do we drain water from the room, what are you going to connect to? Nothing. Yeah, it's always a challenge. So those take a lot out of you. They really do. Yeah. Is it worth it? It is, because it again goes back to the beginning — it's just problem

48:13solving and challenge. And as long as you're working with the right team and everybody's moving in the same direction, you'll get there. People get upset if things don't work the way you initially thought they were going to. And in the renovation space, that's a real possibility — you just can't predict everything that's going to happen once you get started. Yeah. New builds are great — when you get a new build, it's always a treat. You just

48:39finished a heritage property renovation. Yeah, exactly. What are your thoughts on the labour shortage and the current situation in New Brunswick? That's a thing for everyone, but I think people are getting more accustomed to it. It's not great, but it's not terrible. And you're allowing a longer schedule for your work. You just can't muscle your way through it anymore, like you used to. If you needed, let's say, ten drywallers, well, the company only

49:06has six, and they're not going to find the other four, and they tell you that before they start. And so the subcontractors are doing better to manage expectations — they're not over-promising anymore. They're being realistic, and you just communicate that to clients. It's in the news, it's everywhere. It's not an Avant-Garde issue, it's a construction industry issue. And everybody wants to have more people and wants to get material faster and work done quicker. It's just challenging, but

49:37I think people are getting it — it's not just been for the last two months, it's been for the last three years that it's been like this. And so people are just getting — I don't think anybody really wants to get accustomed to it, but you have to be realistic about it. And as long as you're working with people that are not over-promising on what they can deliver, it's still frustrating. There's stuff that you know could be done and you don't have enough guys on the site

50:00to do it. But nobody does, and it's just the new reality. And as much as you try as hard as you can to manage expectations, people still have deadlines. What I think the positive change in all that is — if you're a project manager, you're the one establishing that. What I think people know now is that they need to start sooner. Gone are the days where you could put out a tender and say it's got to start next week

50:24and I've got to be done in five weeks. People just say, I can't meet your schedule, that's not realistic. And everybody is saying the same thing. So people have to adjust. It allows us to plan work much better. People are saying, okay, my lease expires in August of 2024, I want to build a new building — when should I start? Now. If you're not starting now, it's not going to get done in time. So I think people are just reacting to

50:50what's in front of them, and I think it's developing some positive changes — in terms of the get-it-done-now, work nights, work weekends, we've got to get this done — you just can't do it anymore. Yeah. It's a twelve-month-a-year industry, and people are working full-time, and there's just not enough labour. But there is labour, and you've just got to get it done with what you've got. And I think

51:12not everybody's always happy, but I think people understand. And if you communicate that well, then I think it's going to benefit you. Yeah. There's a lot of value — as a project manager with a front-facing client — having your pulse on the industry enough to know, hey, I'm going to set these deadlines and I'm going to do it realistically, because those are the only things that matter once they're down there on the page, right? To the client. And it may turn some people

51:41off, but I don't think your competitors are telling them anything different. And if they are, they're going to find out fast enough. Yeah. So with the diversified client base — a lot of great private relationships right now. Are you still — do you have the capacity to keep your eye on the public tender or

52:10sneer? And some of these jobs are really great projects, you know, high dollars, safe to be involved with because of the finances and the scenario. So is that still something your team is working on too? Or do you feel like sometimes you don't have the capacity, with the new Nova Scotia build and kind of getting away from this one? How do you manage

52:36that? Yeah, I think we just made the decision that we don't follow it as much. We do bid competitively — there are some REITs or developers that have an internal policy that they need at least three bids and they'll get a selected list, and we're happy to bid on those against people. But the public work is just a different setup, a different management. There are some people — you don't see a lot of people doing both these days. You look at the bulletin they publish

53:02every week with the tender results through the association, and you're like, oh my God, there's only one bidder or there's two bidders. They're big numbers and big dollars, but I think it's a different type of construction — a different type of client — and you really have to be set up to do it well. We just made the decision that — we've done it before and I'm not saying we won't do it again — but right now we're pretty happy with

53:25the format. And if we can keep that balance of seventy-five percent construction management, twenty-five percent competitive tender, then I think that's really our wheelhouse. And we know that when we're in that format we've got enough work coming down the road. And then the work — when you bid and you're successful, it keeps going. So yeah, you have — you guys have so many recurring clients that are well-known, like Home Depot, New Brunswick Liquor,

53:57Irving. Is there any project that comes to mind when you think of some of these clients — that were just more satisfying, or just one after the other? Yeah, you know, I don't really have — I can't think of any that jump up. But I remember we were really lucky that we were working with Crombie early on. They were really — we went to their office and met with

54:26their team. Because of so much work they were doing in New Brunswick at the time — they had Highfield Square, they had different projects. Yeah. And so they just gave us an opportunity, and we never really wanted them to regret it. They were one of the first people that took a chance. Yeah, you'd really want to impress. And we'd name-drop their name everywhere — like, as soon as we started doing work for them,

54:46we'd say we're doing work for Crombie — and they had project managers and their team there. I think very highly of them. And that led to opportunities with Sobeys and their construction group. And then it just got our foot in the door. So I can remember doing work at Highfield Square in Moncton and some office work in the towers that Crombie owned. And it felt like

55:10it was such a big deal that a company like that would take a chance on a startup like ours. Oh, it would have been — yeah, anything. I don't ever say anything negative about Crombie. I really respect what they do and how they treated us. And I always thought that if I had the opportunity, that's how I would treat somebody that was starting out — I would certainly not slam a door in their face. So that's the

55:34one that always jumps out to me. I tell that to a lot of people — how well we were treated by them. They worked to make sure that we were getting paid. And we knew all the people on the phone. Yeah. When you think about it — at the time, Crombie, the guys there, the project managers and their local team — they'd have a good pulse on the market. And they'd see, you know, somebody maybe at

55:55the time, young, coming up — a new company trying to get to the next level. And I'm sure depending on the company's mentality and culture, they'd want to — if the numbers were very close, they'd want to give you that shot, knowing that you'd have maybe a little more incentive at the time to impress. Yeah. So it'd be a smart decision on their part. And then just to see others

56:21kind of grow, just kind of reach down and help the next guy up. Right, yeah. I think — how would anybody want to take a chance on somebody that was just starting in the business? And it's hard, like we were talking earlier — it's not a really great startup culture in our business. For somebody to start a new company, you don't see too many startups that survive. And when it's a

56:48mix of competitive tender — and at that time we weren't bonded, so you're putting up certified cheques and trying to get work that way. And then we had good opportunities with a couple of local developers that I met through different networks. And Patrick at the time was hustling in Saint John and had connections through his network. And then we just started going, and we were able to get some work through JDI, and then we were

57:12able to get some opportunities with Sobeys. And those are always great companies to work for — they've got their construction division, they've got some really competent people who are managing the construction for them. But like you said, it's such a hustle and a grind. There's something new — and anyone who hasn't done it, those years. And then to have a relationship like Crombie, or some of the other ones you got, where you can

57:33almost breathe again, knowing that, hey, there's work coming. I don't have to grind it out anymore. Now I've got to shift my thinking to — how am I going to structure this? That feeling is — and that's what I guess I appreciate what you guys are doing here. You're telling the stories of the people that have had similar starts. And meeting some of the people that — whether they're subcontractors

57:55or contractors — there's a lot of shared experiences in that. And really it's just, beat the asphalt and see who can go. That's right. And you're not getting paid anything, and it's just a real leap of faith. Yeah. We're fortunate we survived and have thrived, but we've got our teeth kicked in a few times. Yeah. And who hasn't, right? Who's got to the level you're at? I mean, that's the thing. You can look at some of these

58:20people reach the success they have, and a lot of people who don't know them would think, must be nice, right? You hear that all the time from people towards somebody who's on the ladder of success, so to speak. But you don't know what they've been through to get there. And they took the risk and they took that journey. Yeah. And I think — you get your teeth kicked in literally. And like I

58:45mentioned earlier, the guys that have been with us a long time — they were there. And we stuck together. We talk about it and say, remember this, remember that. They're great friends and they work really hard for the business. They knew what it was like when it was working to get paid and working to get going. So it's as much for them that we have these new opportunities

59:10— I'm excited because they were there with us. And maybe they weren't taking the financial risk, but they believed in what we were doing. And I think that's what the energy in the company is — the passion and the belief that those guys had — and we were able to grow off of it. You mentioned the large project here in Nova Scotia with Quest, the two separate complexes, six hundred units total. Something else of recent news for you — I think you're able to disclose — is

59:36acquiring a new company as well. Yeah. So recently — well, not recently — we have an agreement in place to acquire Rice Contracting. It was a competitor, but we didn't really compete a lot against Rice Contracting. John Rice has owned that business for thirty years. He has a great list of clients, a great list of projects, great staff. So I met John a couple of times over the years, and then as he was planning

60:07his exit, we started talking, and it seemed like a right fit. We were trying to grow, he was looking for an opportunity to find a succession plan for his business. So we started talking. And as I got more into his company, it just — it was easy. John and I got along really well. He's got great people, a lot of the same values that are the foundation for his company as for our company. And they

60:31were really strong — they are really strong in the design-build world. And we hadn't been in the design-build world at all. So we're getting opportunities, maybe some that are Avant-Garde clients that are better suited to work with Rice's staff, and so on. And speaking of Revit experience — is that kind of part of that transition too? Yeah, so they're not as much on the Revit side. They have an architectural technologist in-house and an

60:57architect they work with that reviews plans. So they draft in-house, they deliver a lot of projects. They're an authorized Butler dealer in New Brunswick, so they're doing Butler buildings and delivering those in design-build. They're heavy in the industrial space. They've got a lot of experience in the food service industry — did a lot of work with Tim Hortons over the years. So totally a great fit. It just worked out really well. They've got great people. And the same as what you

61:25know — the things I liked about and that you draw energy from at Avant-Garde — there are a lot of long-time employees at Rice as well, who've been with John for twenty years, fifteen years. And you'd have some kind of rapport between the teams, right? Yeah. So it was announced to both our team and their team what was happening, and we were able to reach an agreement. So it's just about finalized now. I'm not

61:51letting anything out of the bag — it's not a secret, the staffs all know. And so we're looking for — they're going to operate as their own company, and Avant-Garde will continue to operate. They both have different specialties, but there are some synergies between the two companies in training and opportunities. So it's exciting, and it allows us to grow through their company. Their company was a great company and it's just, you know, it was

62:17the next phase. Rice 2.0, and we're excited about that too. We have a lot going on, Rob. Yeah, no, it's busy — and it's good. You get to relax tonight though — you're here with your wife, right? You're staying at the Four Points? Yeah, yeah. We're going to hit the boardwalk tonight, and I think they're probably putting a dent in the credit card this afternoon. Yeah, no, it's busy, but we're busy as a

62:44family — our kids are active. Allison and I work together; we've worked together for the last twelve years. It's been great. Any comments — not advice, but comments — for other couples that are trying to pull that off? I'd say that we do it well because we're very open with each other. She calls me out on a lot of my crap, and she's really valuable in what she does. Professionally, she

63:13commands respect because she's earned it. She's in the foxhole with you, so if she's calling me out on something, it's got to be true. And we're both engineers, so we're both analytical thinkers in the same way, and both enjoy problem-solving and the opportunities. Yeah. So she made the switch from consulting engineering to construction, and it's been great for our business. And our marriage is surviving, so we

63:42started — when we started at Avant-Garde I can't remember exactly — Allison was pregnant, and her oldest daughter is now getting ready to go to university. So I find those are the moments that you think of and you're like, crap, I've been at this a long time. Her whole life has been in this business. So it's rewarding, and it also makes you feel older. Yeah. Anything else — I'm conscious of the time, I'm sure you have plans

64:10for dinner. We're about an hour. But anything else that you want to get out there, promote, shed light on for Avant-Garde or for yourself? Obviously the shift into Nova Scotia with this major project, and obviously there's going to be more for Quest throughout. And yeah, I'm sure with the market the way it is now, you'll be in Nova Scotia for many, many years. Yeah, we hope so. And it's certainly exciting. And you

64:39know, just a big shout-out to our team. It's hard to mention names because then you're going to leave somebody out. I've listened to other people do this through this podcast — I remember getting you back on. But our team is great — it's not perfect, but we work really hard to make it fun. We encourage people to get involved — not only with their families but in their communities. And there are opportunities in

65:04the industry and outside of the industry to give back. It's something that we believe in, and people take advantage of it. And we want them to be successful. There's a balance — and I don't know what it is, work-life balance — but people give a lot, and more often than not they don't expect enough in return. Everybody's passionate about what they do, and you try to just match their energy and give them some direction and

65:30help them to succeed. And if we keep doing that well, then I think we'll be able to continue to grow. And I'm not anywhere close to being ready to stop. I feel like I've got a while, but I'm just really feeling like I'm getting going. So there's great energy around the business and the industry in general. There really is. Yeah, you're right — the energy, the passion, the energy, it's infectious.

65:56It's a great time to be in the industry. What about — we talked about the labour shortage earlier. A lot of people on the show will tell you — you talked about your time at McGill. So many students that are local, at NSCC, engineering students at Dalhousie, whether it's UPEI or Memorial in Newfoundland. For people that are not quite there yet, or thinking about what they want to do with their lives — that's kind of where we can solve that problem downstream, right? I mean, yeah, we've had great luck with

66:23the NBCC construction management program. NBCC as well, yeah, doing really well. Graduates in the civil engineering technology or the building construction management program — structural, architectural — they do a really good job prepping people for our industry. And we've had some recent hires from there that have been really good. We've had some immigrants that we've hired who have gone through — engineers in their country have taken the two-year program at NBCC. We've been able to hire them through that program. In your last

66:52three hires — from India, Nigeria, India. And they're local here. They're local. They've been in Moncton in these cases, and they're well educated in their home country, are looking for opportunities in Canada, have landed in Moncton, and gone through NBCC or similar programs. So it's been really good for us in attracting talent. And for those of us who have been in the business a while now, it's time to start bringing people in and start training. And we've got

67:20the right people and the right infrastructure to do that. Yeah, no, that's amazing. And I think part of having these conversations is to shed light on what it's like in the industry from all kinds of different perspectives, and hopefully it does something to lure some younger people who maybe aren't thinking about this industry and what it's actually like. Yeah. And the amazing opportunities that are there. And the technology — integrating

67:52technology — is now, and on top of that, it's a game changer. Yeah. We're using OpenSpace for reality capture on site. And so now the management of it — so many people are using OpenSpace now. Yes. And such a simple idea, it just really works. Yeah, they do a great job with that platform. So we've integrated that, and people who are more technically inclined and enjoy the technology — you're seeing now that when you're hiring a young twenty-something, they

68:17just dive into it and make that program sing. And the rest of us are just kind of — yeah, look at how we're doing all of a sudden. My parents — shout-out — now you really feel old. Yeah, now you really feel older. Just — the kids at the office are now telling us how to use technology, much like we had to teach our parents how to plug in the VCR. Yeah, yeah. The story of

68:39— like you've taken an iPhone to some foreign country or a place in poverty, and a five or six year old kid just knew how to use it. It was designed so well — it was another extension of the body or whatever, right? But you're right — the generational shift in technology. Even your kids — you watch them with their iPhones or their MacBooks, whatever it is, and you're probably thinking, geez, OpenSpace and Procore — man, if we'd only had this fifteen years ago when we were first

69:06started. All those Excel sheets — print it out but you couldn't read it, it fell off the border of the page. When we were young and working in Boston we were the DINKs — double income, no kids. Yeah, we were always the ones trying to figure out the computer programs. And then here we are, twenty years later, twenty-five years later, and it's like, oh God, we're on the other side. Oh man. Well, it's been a

69:31pleasure, Rob, to talk with you. This is great stuff within the industry, and your story and Avant-Garde Construction Management. So it's great we're getting more guests from the New Brunswick area. And yeah, everybody has a story to tell and lots of exciting news. So congrats. Yeah, I appreciate that. Best of luck, and thanks for having me on. I really appreciate what you guys are doing. You're doing a great job and

69:58telling the stories of people that — it's really interesting to learn not only about the people that you know, but their stories and their projects and their challenges. I really enjoy what you guys are doing. So congratulations. Thank you. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, cheers. Awesome. We'd like to thank our long-time sponsor Cook Insurance. Cook is your trusted insurance broker in Atlantic Canada for fifty years. The Cook team opens up opportunities for contractors by proactively managing the requirements of their bond facility. They expand levels

70:27of support and negotiate preferred rates, all while prioritizing ease of doing business. A Navacord partner since 2020, Cook is one of the largest construction brokers in Canada and offers national strength with a local touch. Whatever your insurance needs are, Cook has you covered. The team at the Atlantic Construction Podcast has been able to build a strong relationship with the folks at FCA Surety. FCA Surety is strongly invested in supporting the Atlantic Construction marketplace and helping contractors to build their businesses. We highly recommend them.