How EllisDon Atlantic Wins Complex Projects — Design-Build Strategy, Labour Shortage, and Owner Budget Reality | Ep. 48

0:00This episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor Pizant Building Products. Pizant Building Products has been providing contractors and builders with the supplies necessary to complete their jobs since 1964. They have built a reputation of honest, helpful, and quality service, serving the HRM for the last 58 years. Now with seven locations in Nova Scotia and one in New Brunswick, our team at the Atlantic Construction Podcast is extremely excited to announce our new co-branded partner, Procore. Procore is the global leader in construction management software. We'll be conducting

0:29several podcast episodes with Procore users and construction companies across the country in 2023, among many other things. Stay tuned — we're excited. Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Very excited and honoured to have EllisDon Corporation with us today, Atlantic division. We've got Travis Rudolph, Chief Estimator, and Shaun Stiles, Senior Vice President. Gentlemen, thank you, thanks for coming in and giving us your time today. Glad to be here. Thanks for having us. Great to be here. Shaun, you were saying you're a native of New Brunswick, UNB grad — tell

1:07us a little bit about your early journey. So I graduated civil engineering at UNB in 2003. Did you see construction pick back then? I was always kind of doing summer construction jobs, and I won't say they were engineering jobs — everything from being on a survey crew with the city to laying water and sewer pipe, whatever. Working, family influence there too? Not really. I have an older brother, I have an identical twin brother who's

1:38an engineer, same as me, works for every model, and then I have an older brother who was with the competition for a while at Pomerleau. So we all did kind of the engineering route. But yeah, I don't know, it just kind of happened naturally, and civil was kind of cool. So graduated from there, and back then you couldn't find jobs — you had to either go kind of west. Around 2003, yeah. So I headed to Boston with a lot of UNB grads and

2:07kind of worked the tail end of the Big Dig that was going on. Yeah, and built a wastewater treatment plant, kind of came up through field engineer through the superintendent ranks for four or five years. That's got to be quite an experience, working on a wastewater treatment plant. Yeah, yeah, it was — it was a big one too. It was about 100 million dollars. So I started out as

2:31a field engineer. 100 million back then, yeah, right. Factor in the inflation there. Yeah, it was a good job to really cut your teeth on and get in the industry. Nice. And then headed back here — so the opportunity came to EllisDon and I kind of jumped on it, been here ever since. Yeah, and Travis, yourself — you're a native of Pictou County? I call Pictou home. Yeah, I grew up just outside. But a different

3:00path than Shaun took to get here. I think my first life goals were to kick soccer balls and bounce basketballs, yeah. So did the recreation first, and then what — when did you know that wasn't working out?

3:17Maybe it's a similar answer — I think the jobs and the salary weren't there. Right. But I spent some time in hospitality, and then, okay, after a while kind of heard about — well, I've always had an interest in construction, sure — but didn't think it was going to be a lifelong thing. And then in the late 90s I went back to community college and took the Construction Administration Technology at NSCC. Was that NSCC? Yes, okay. And since then, kind of after that, bounced around for the first

3:48couple years — first few years of on-site coordinator work — and then got into some little residential, and then for the last, let's say, 18, 19 years, been estimating. Kind of started with some sub-trades, did some flooring, did some drywall, okay, and then after that it's been with a couple of big generals for most of my career. And EllisDon's been treating me well ever since. Yeah, we've been — so 10 years now? You've been almost 10 years with EllisDon? Yeah, yeah. Travis is at 10, and I'm coming onto my

4:1817th. So, wow — we're both some veterans here. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So at what point — because you have your PQS designation, right? Do you both have PQS? You have a PQS, Travis, and my Gold Seal, yeah. So was that part of EllisDon's internal education — or was that a personal choice? That's a personal choice, for sure. It's one of those things — I was involved when there used to be a Nova Scotia chapter of quantity surveyors and was heavily involved with

4:48that, on education, just as a member at large and then — before it ended — Vice President for a couple of years. But at that time when I got into it, it was more of a personal choice because I found with the CIQS it was more of a kind of an education, right? People hear it and they think, oh, just estimating, just estimating. But when you're going through it to get your designation, the focus is on economics, contracts, law, scheduling, planning — it's a much broader scope than, and about to compare it to like

5:19the Gold Seal, which is a great designation as well, through the association — the Canadian construction stuff, here, exactly. So the Gold Seal is: you're an estimator, very strict on the estimating. But I find the CIQS, the PQS designation, is much more broader. So for me, I think if an estimator brought it to the table, I know they're a well-rounded estimator — they can think outside the box, thinking about planning, scheduling, economics, law, contracts — a bit of everything. It's great. Yeah. I think it's interesting — you both come

5:48from an estimating background. As you know, a senior — as Chief Estimator now with EllisDon Atlantic — and Shaun, yourself, Senior Vice President, but you were a Senior Estimator there for a while as well, right? Yeah. And it's funny, so I kind of — you know, I was always in the field when I was in Boston, and a lot of the time called into the office when we were finishing one project and moving on to another one, to just help them out with another estimate. So I did end

6:12up in the office for a bit, helping them out. And I was looking for work and stuff like that, trying to come back to Canada, wherever it was, and I got turned on to someone that was looking for a new estimator with field experience — a younger estimator that he could kind of mould into an estimator. So that's how I ended up in it, and just kind of moving my way up through it. But my intent was probably to be a

6:37superintendent if I was going anywhere. This was an interest, right? Yeah, yeah. So it's — I think that was me back in school: it was like, never had the intention of being behind a desk all day. It was like, get some certification, grow it on site, be a super — yeah, all that. And then yeah, as I get older and the kids and stuff, kind of changes your views. Sure. It was like, you get in the office, you see the hours, and it's like, this isn't too bad, I can do

7:02this. Yeah, yeah — you're going to the same place every day, for the most part. There's consistency with that too, yeah. It's great. Yeah. It's interesting though — I was probably the first Chief Estimator to get promoted to a VP Area Manager job. It's a different route that you took, isn't it? Yeah. But now we have three — London, Toronto, civil, oh yeah, Calgary — so now there's four. There's four chief estimators that moved into that role. That's interesting.

7:33Yeah, yeah. So I think it's interesting too, to pick your brain about estimating. Shaun, you mentioned they wanted an estimator with some field experience. Yeah. I think a lot of subs put a lot of high value on that — someone who has the intuition on labour. It might be different from a general contracting standpoint; you have the 30,000-foot view, it's kind of a lot more contract work and heavy on the data side. But what do you think makes a good estimator? I mean, you said PQS — that

7:59designation means a lot, right? I mean, if someone has that designation, for sure, is one thing. But experience — experience trumps everything. Experience trumps everything. Yeah. I think it's a catch-22: is it the estimator that comes from the field first, or is it the estimator that starts in estimating then goes to the field? But I think on both sides — I think younger people should have some estimating experience so when they go in the field they kind of see where the projects begin, how they're put together,

8:24and how they start, yeah. And then on the more senior level, it's nice to have those people that have some site experience, because just what you said — they have a better concept on labour and productivity and the general conditions, the odds and ends, the temporary works, yeah. So that definitely helps. Yeah. It's not an easy job, that's for sure. No, no. A lot of high stress, a lot of numbers, especially, you know, closing day, tight deadlines, and

8:50yeah. And you add materials and logistics and all these things. Yeah, some guys they thrive on — like, Shaun was saying we don't do a lot of lump sum bidding, but we do some — and I know there's some guys, some estimators, they just love it. They say if it was closing day every day it would be perfect. It's just high stress, busy, a lot of excitement, and they thrive off that environment. But then other people, they'll run away from that.

9:11Yeah, they've got to be out on the site, they've got to be — yeah. But it's interesting too, because you might think — and you might have that aura about estimators — from the site perspective, you know, you can mention you don't like to put people in boxes, but more introverted, more extroverted, depending on where you thrive, where you build your energy from. But yeah, I think one of the biggest things in estimating is communication — having the communication with the site, having, you know, open channels with

9:35different kinds of people who are out there working. Labour — 100 different kinds of people, right, different than — would you guys agree with that? Like, how important is communication — how do you see that operating in EllisDon Atlantic, as far as the communication between the estimators and the site supers and so on and so forth? You want to start? Oh, go ahead. Communication is key on every level. And especially when — I'll start with the estimating side itself: you can come

10:01in as a junior and there's that time where you've got to put in your time doing your takeoffs, making some calls, stuff like that. But if you want to promote and progress, you've got to have that communication — you've got to build the relationships with all your subs, with all your PMs, with all your supers. And to get to the next — intermediate, Senior, Chief level — it's all communications. Yeah. Like, Shaun and I probably don't do as much — he wouldn't have been doing it when he was Chief or Senior. You're

10:26not doing takeoffs at that point, that's for sure. No, it's more communication, talking, meetings, working things out, yeah. And you have to have that, and it's a two-way street with the site people as well — you've got to communicate with your own people, and then the subs out there as well, you've got to have those relationships. It's all communications, yeah. What do we call them? Back-room estimators, right? We were never back-room-type estimators — on the

10:52phone talking to the subs and building those relationships with the owners and everything else. Yeah. That's a pet peeve of — I think every company has that. It's like, well, did you talk to Dan? It's like, yeah, I sent him an email. It's like, no, no, no — did you pick up the phone and actually — in my head, because I can totally relate — did you talk to him? Yeah, take him out to lunch or have something like that. You don't get a relationship

11:12through an email or a text, it just doesn't happen. No, that's right. And it means a lot too for the subs to be, you know, asked out to have a lunch — if you're working on a big project, I mean, you're talking about, you know, often several millions of dollars and maybe a few years of your life committed to this. Like, you know, maybe we'll have lunch and have a chat. Yeah. The good thing about us with our company and the type of projects we do too, it's kind of

11:34cool, because we're always sitting at the table during early stages. So we're sitting down with the owner and the design team, and you've been brought on to everything, and you're kind of rolling with the team — so it's a very team-approach, yeah, project approach most of the time. Right, yeah. Which makes it really more interesting. A lot of conceptual estimating — like, you have to be a good conceptual estimator. And you've got to have that repertoire of experience. Maybe I remember when the guys from — I think it was Lauren from

12:00Pomerleau was talking about — oh, we have sheets from jobs like that, we've done five wastewater treatments across the country, so we're not scared to price this one because it's going to fit somewhat into this mould that we already have. Historical data — draw from your past projects. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And that ties in, Shaun, to what Travis was saying earlier — you don't see EllisDon, at least in Atlantic, doing a lot of lump sum. No, exactly. That's obviously part of the business model. And you're there

12:26kind of at the entry point in the design phase. Exactly. Building those relationships with the architects. Yep, yep. And design-build and construction management are really our bread and butter here, what we like to do. And I assume that leads you into a lot more complex projects? Exactly, yeah. Exactly. You're not doing a lot of schools — basic builds — no, nothing like that. No, exactly. And I think the province is trying to lean towards — correct me if I'm wrong, Travis — but we've

12:52seen a couple of — they're not modified IPD — IPD, integrated — alternate, alternate design-build — they've got modified design-build, you've got integrated project delivery. They know — I shouldn't say they know — I say I think lump sum is kind of people are getting away from, to some extent. It's not the best for the stakeholders, and it's not the best for the subs involved, and it's not the best for most parties involved. Exactly. Anything that's

13:19collaborative — if it's P3, design-build, and then however you mix that up — if it's integrative or collaborative anyway, the quicker you bring in the subs, your architects, the whole design team together, the better. It's neat that you say that too, because a lot of people that have been on our podcast — everyone's in the industry in some capacity, all different — it could be an architect, could be a salesperson, an agency rep, GCs — collaboration just keeps coming up. It's

13:44just like a big shift, right? I mean, maybe in the last 20 years — construction wasn't always so collaborative. No, very kind of old-school, blue-collar, kind of mentality. Okay, I think that was the perfect term to use, right? Absolutely. Yeah. Just what you said. But it's shifting from every level. Yeah. And I think EllisDon — what we bring to the table, we can't bring that to the table in the lump sum world. What we're talking about

14:10earlier — when you bring all your added services, everything you do — rather than lump sum, where it's one number, you don't have that chance to say, well, we can help with design, we can help with logistics, with schedule, whatever it might be. It doesn't even fit the model. Like, you're too big, too good a value prop, to even — well, you need a different value prop, but you've got to sell your services. You've got to talk to the owner about that. Lump sum world is: what's your number?

14:34Yeah, no, it doesn't. So when EllisDon — what capacity were you involved with the Dal Arts Centre here? Because is that — that's open yet, the new — it's open, it's open, just recently though, right? A few months maybe? Yeah, opened in — hit it over in the fall, right? Yeah. So this is kind of a reno plus addition — 42,000 square feet, the new theater, yep, next to Rebecca Cohn. And yeah, it was always CM — construction management. Yeah,

15:02okay. And you were involved with the university kind of in the early phases? Absolutely. I remember — correct me if I'm wrong, I mean, you may not remember this anyway, because obviously this is a few years back. For anyone listening not in the industry, like, it's sometimes five or six years from inception. But yeah, I remember like the re-tender, the second go-around, you know, eliminating a lot of this, which is typical for such a

15:27build — with the sound and acoustics and panels, you know, these are high-cost items — and then, you know, like might manoeuvre that already. They cancelled the lump sum and went out CM after that, I think. So yeah. Because what happened was, they took a lot of the ceiling acoustics — or they changed products — and you see that when it comes to a concert hall, right? Because those are the add-ons that come in that just

15:51could be millions of dollars, you know. And it's — but Lydon Lynch, right, was the architect? Lydon Lynch — and was it Thomas Payne? Yeah, from Toronto. From Toronto, right? Yeah, that happens a lot, right, on these big projects. You have the national firm and then they have to engage someone locally. And Lydon Lynch was a big player on that, that's for sure. Yeah. And it's a pretty cool building. It looked — well, inside it's — I don't know, when you get in, it's beautiful. Yeah.

16:14But the acoustics — what you say is, you can't tell how eccentric — or whatever the word is — from the outside, you know, the structure being acoustically separated. Like, it was quite a bit. Yeah, there's more to it than meets the eye, absolutely. Yeah. The auditorium kind of as a standalone type feature — for vibrations and music and sound and stuff like that — where it's

16:40almost like freestanding from the rest of the space. Right. Yeah, exactly — kind of isolated for sound waves and that kind of stuff. Exactly. Yeah, it was nice there. Like, we had the whole street for a couple of years building — yeah, work, yeah. WorkLive across the street. Oh yeah, that's right. And then Seymour, with WorkLive — so the student housing. Yeah, kind of a different kind of project there, huh? Yeah, yeah. I have a neighbour — my neighbour and my buddy

17:04works for WorkLive. Oh cool. He was here in the city helping, you know, when they opened in the fall of 2022, yeah. Because it was pretty tight deadline there, right — to get all the students in? And so he was one of the guys that was giving them a hand at that. Chris Cameron — I'll give him a plug. That was a pressure cooker to get — yeah, I heard — to get the students in. But you know what? It

17:27happened. We had a great team — field team on our side — and ZAP Architecture, is that right? Yeah, yeah, Joe and his team. And the WorkLive team was great too. So yeah, we all came together in the end and did the push, but it was down to the wire for sure. Oh, I can't give the site people enough props on that, because they were incredible. Yeah. I mean, for anyone that's, you know, not been involved in

17:52some of these big projects — when it comes to a building that's got a tight timeline for being open, what does that mean? Well, how many units are there? 160? 100? That's 500 homeless students if we didn't get it. Exactly, exactly. And like, these are students that are not from here and they've got nowhere else to go. Like, I don't know if they're coming in — yeah, they're coming in the doors whether you like it or not. That was another level of complexity. Like,

18:16they moved in while we were still doing stuff around them — like, it was impressive. Yeah. And that was all during COVID, when we were pricing and going through design and stuff, so there was a challenge there. We did it pretty quick — 24 months — as if it wasn't complex enough. Exactly, exactly, exactly. So, you know what? The project turned out great, the building looks great too. It does, yeah. I know it looks great, and the students got in on time, and yeah, it's a great

18:41one to have on a résumé. Yeah. And like you said, right across the street — two big ones for Halifax, we had that street block down for over a year. Yeah. Bayers Lake Community Outpatient Centre — a P3 project, first one in Nova Scotia — that's coming on the back end of completion, right? Yep. So we're going to — it'll be open in the fall at some point. Our substantial completion is in August on the construction side. And then there's a bunch of stuff — you guys really have

19:13your arms wrapped around that one, maybe, with EllisDon Corp and the maintenance and so on and so forth. Yeah — design, build, operate, finance, maintain. Yeah. Other than design and architecture, everything was in-house. Wow. Yeah. That was another good example — like, that was right from the get-go, just when COVID was starting, through COVID, and kind of getting over the hump. Like, even dealing with the province on how to deal with COVID as we were getting started — everything about that was — turkey. But that closed during the height of

19:43the pandemic. Yeah, right? Oh yeah, yeah — the pursuit was ongoing, and then the first case hit Canada, and then within a few months it kind of came to the Maritimes. Okay, and just got worse and worse, and then trying to figure out how you deal with COVID to submit a price on it for such a long-term project. But again, the site staff's been doing great, it's coming along. So as Chief Estimator, Travis — when you have a project like — let's use those

20:12three that we just talked about. So you have Seymour — you have a multi-res student housing, still steel structure, right? Thank you, Seymour. Is it all wood frame? Steel? No, steel. Yeah. And then you have an arts centre with a theatre, and you have a healthcare job at Bayers Lake. So for you — tell me, or tell us — you've got your hands in all of those in some ways. Are you just going to go to whichever one is going worse so you can help, or are you going to want

20:43everyone's best? So you can't stay out of the bad ones. No, no. I'm in a pretty lucky seat — once it comes to life, talk about variety — a lot of variety, that's for sure. And each project has a full team assigned to it. So once we get the contract, yeah, and like the P3, you've got people involved all along. Seymour, Dal — once the site teams are set up, they're running that thing, they own it, and I'm just in the background. And each

21:10one usually has a Senior Estimator that's helping them out as well. But the site teams run it — we're just there to support when necessary. But variety of projects, 100%. It is one thing — you know, being in the Maritimes, I say this a lot actually — we've had to adapt, you know, especially when it's not busy. Yeah, we look at everything, you know — if it fits the model. So horses and barns? Absolutely, yeah. Someone ironically talking about the first two

21:41jobs — horses and barns, and a lobster — we did a feed barn in Truro. Yeah. I was being serious, but it happened. It was kind of joking and serious at the same time. We did it at the agricultural college. Yeah, yeah, we did it just before COVID, I think. Yeah. But since then, well, the market's so busy you've got to get your share. So you're bidding and looking at it. Yeah, you have to, right. You've got to diversify or you can't. Yeah, exactly. And maybe

22:06that's where we're kind of led into New Brunswick, like really focusing on a lot of work up there, and it's been working out for us. And that's just recently? Yeah, we've always kind of been there, doing some — call it light industrial stuff. We did the Irving Oil home office in Saint John as a joint venture with FCC for Irving Oil, which was a fantastic project. If you ever get a chance to get into that building, it's worth it — it's probably not easy to

22:35get in, but it's quite a building, it's worth going to. We just finished a school at Rossignol Netherwood as well in the fall. Okay. And then some small stuff here and there. We're about to kick off the UNB Head Hall engineering building. Finally, finally coming back, so yeah, yeah. I'm pretty excited about that. Alumni, yeah, exactly. So — but go ahead. I was going to say, with that, our New Brunswick office out of Moncton — so we look after all of New

23:07Brunswick, and then we're just fortunate enough to get a big project in PEI as well. Yeah, the DVA — the Daniel J. MacDonald building. Yeah, right, yeah. Daniel J. MacDonald, right — which is Department of Veterans Affairs. Yeah. So with that, and then there's so much other stuff around to bid in New Brunswick, so hopefully that just grows and grows for us. Yeah, yeah. So you've got lots going on in the different provinces. Yeah. And I did forget to mention that we do have a satellite office in Moncton — right downtown, across from

23:35City Hall. Okay. So we have staff there that run a bunch of different stuff. So yeah, it's growing. Yeah. The reason I asked about your position as Chief Estimator and kind of what that's like, just to extract a little bit about your position, your role, and how in a company like EllisDon it kind of operates with so many different complex jobs happening. So Shaun, for you — is part of your role as a Senior Vice President kind of looking at

24:01different projects that might be coming up and trying to free up guys that maybe have a lot more experience in healthcare — as a Senior Site Super — or maybe you've got to hire somebody because that's lacking? Are you constantly looking ahead? 100%, just to give our listeners context. 100%. And Travis is part of the struggle as well, because — we work on the senior team responding to these proposals, right? That when you respond to a hospital, they want a Senior Construction Manager that's

24:28done $50 million-plus complex healthcare projects. There's not a lot of those people around — it just isn't, right? And we're one of the biggest healthcare builders in the country, if not the biggest. And then trying to convince those people that can match the résumé to move to the Maritimes for two, four, six years — sometimes it's a hard sell, yeah. And so you're able to look internally across the nation with EllisDon staff — hey, is anybody available? Exactly. That's the first step. We're assuming if it's

24:58not found here on the East Coast, exactly. And we've been successful at that — like, we've had, especially during COVID, a number of people move from BC, Ottawa, Toronto. No one from Calgary, I don't think, but we've definitely had staff move this way, and some more coming actually this year as well. So there are staff looking for different opportunities and a more relaxed lifestyle, eh? Exactly, let's go — say that, yeah. Good old relaxing. Yeah, yeah.

25:31Lobster for lunch every day. Every day. Cheap houses — those good old commercials, that's how you lure them here. I know — house on the ocean, it's cheap. Yeah. I was thinking it's a catch-22 — like, where we don't bid a lot of lump sum and where you're doing proposals a lot of the time, it's: you need the project to get the staff and you need the staff to get the project. So it's always that tricky part of how you're going to get them here, and then just being competitive on

25:59the proposal. But it's always that switch of what comes first — the project or the staff? And you don't want these type of senior people sitting on the bench not working somewhere, so you need that high-end project to support them. Okay. And then you're also competing — you know, we're working on three major hospitals in Ontario right now. So Healthcare across the country is crazy — it's busy everywhere. BC? Yeah, very busy. And that's — so Cape Breton, there's healthcare stuff going on, but you guys are

26:30at NSCC — you're not there, but you're at Bayers Lake and under there, yes. There's IWK, of course. Yes, so you're coming to ground now on University Ave here in Halifax — the IWK new emergency. Yeah, beautiful project. Hopefully another — down there another year, year and a half. Yeah. And that's been a long time coming, the addition — the Emergency, I mean, they've been thinking about it on their side. Yes. Yeah, just because of the increase in population and, yeah, you

27:00know. But I think every healthcare project — they realise it's probably they could use bigger; they're probably undersized for a lot of the projects that we're building now. But that's part of a grander plan of all these — you know, Bayers Lake Community Outpatient Centre, the Emergency Edition — you know, it's all kinds of healthcare dollars. Yeah, okay, brat and stuff. Yeah. The — what I read in the last — and I don't have any knowledge about it — but you read about the Heart Centre, the new Rehab Centre, Emergency in Dartmouth

27:29General, Emergency in Cobequid — I think they were talking about a whole bunch of different — yeah, transition-to-care facilities. So they're talking about a lot of healthcare coming up for sure. It's great that it's happening, but it's unfortunate that it's all happening at once for the labour force. Yeah, isn't that the case? Seems to be the case in construction from all levels. 100%. You mentioned the labour shortage — maybe a segue into the NSCC Cape Breton — tell me the proper name, it's like

28:01it's eluding me at the moment. But Sydney Waterfront — Sydney Waterfront Campus development, yeah. So that's supposed to be completed in 2024, but one of the reasons they're building is to have more capacity, but also as a solution to the labour shortage, right? Because they're going to be training a lot of apprentices. Oh, exactly. So that's — I mean, that's a positive thing, it's not really going to see the benefits for a few years. Yeah. And the good thing about that is, you know, we are ahead of the

28:26hospital construction really going on right now, yeah. So we should be done before those projects really get going, right? So yeah, so you can kind of circulate the team around. Yeah, yeah. That was a blessing — get the students in and start training them. Yeah, you know, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So, I mean, the labour shortage is a big topic for everybody. You know, we just came back — our team was in Toronto for the Concrete Expo, Canadian Concrete Expo at the International Centre last month. A lot of

28:52people talking about that. There are a lot of contractors from across the country, the team at Procore talking a lot about that. And then everyone — whether it's an architect or a subcontractor in landscaping or drywall or GC — same complaint. You guys obviously feel that in your roles: you feel it on the pressure from the projects, you feel it when you're putting proposals in for a job that's going to be the next seven years and you have no idea where you're going to get site supers and PMs with the right

29:18kind of experience. How big of a problem is it? All right, you start. It's — I guess I'll talk about, maybe, just on the PMs and super side. It's very hard. We're all — there's a fair amount of general contractors in the Maritimes, we all compete for the same talent. Yeah. And it's — I've never seen anything like it. The amount of people we're interviewing, and if they come — if they don't come — and they've got to be the right people

29:50too, right? So — we can't just take — the culture — you've got to fit the culture, and they've got to be the right people. So it's a challenge, and it's a full-time job for me and my team to find those right people for those jobs. Supers are really hard to find right now. Estimators — you're always looking for estimators, yeah. And PMs. And I'm not sure what the fix is going to be. You kind of have to get — you

30:17know, I talk to Dal Engineering and UNB Engineering quite a bit — and not just engineering, into NSCC as well, yeah, and wherever — but just to get more people interested in construction and show them what it can be like, you know. It's not what it was 50 years ago. It's a pretty interesting and cool thing to get into. So just try to get more people interested in the construction industry. Right. Quick shout-out to the newest sponsor of the show.

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31:13environments with the added benefit of energy efficiency. Air sealing is a critical step towards net-zero buildings. Using air pressure to automatically guide sealant guarantees the highest quality results in the least amount of time with the least amount of effort. If air sealing is important to you, you can visit Airtight Spaces at www.airtightspaces.com. And we've had that conversation a lot. Yeah, I think even with what our team is doing — maybe we're doing our little part to have exposure and shed light on what it means to be in the industry — just hearing from so many

31:40different people. Ongoing conversations, yeah. I think every company is in the same boat, and you know, we had some senior people retire in the past couple of years too, right, Trav? And yeah, that's a big thing too — the demographic shift. Tough to replace some of those people. Yeah, well, grey hair — you can't replace the grey hair. Yeah, yeah. So, but that's the sad part. Now with social media, so easy — if somebody wanted another job next week, they can go and find one. It's that easy. Yeah, LinkedIn,

32:10whatever it is — headhunters — it's just a frenzy. Yeah. Some companies, the only way you get hires is LinkedIn. I mean, you have to be on LinkedIn or not. Yeah, yeah. And it makes it hard, where eventually salaries are just going to keep climbing up because of that reason too. Yeah, they're in such high demand. Yeah. And I look across EllisDon as a company across Canada — it used to be certain markets were only hot markets, they're all hot now. People are — they're all just saturated, and people

32:39are hard to come by, right? So we've done a couple of joint ventures — internal joint ventures within areas of EllisDon — in order to staff certain projects. So we might have an Ottawa–Halifax joint venture on a project in Ottawa, so we would try to get five people to go work on it — each area contributes five people. So you're seeing a lot more of that kind of cooperation between areas within the company across the country. You know, if

33:11there's an Assistant Super that wants to go to Toronto for five years and work on a project and then come back, they can do that. So that's got to give you an advantage over the Atlantic GCs that are not operating outside — yeah, don't have the means of overflow, you know? Yeah, yeah, exactly. Yeah. So it's a challenge. I'm not sure how it's going to get better. But do you think, with what you see now, on that side of

33:39the business, on that side of the industry — you know, with the amount of people entering engineering, the amount of people taking Construction Tech at NSCC — like, if there's not enough estimators or not enough PMs and site supers now with experience, I mean, there's always guys coming up, there's always guys learning. Yeah, too. But do you see that — what's your intuition, as far as your position and your pulse? Like, what's your intuition on: is it going to get better? I see a good group coming. Yeah.

34:08There's still that gap — like, they need another five years, exactly, before they can go away on that project. That's what I see. I don't know. What you said — 100%, yeah. There's that gap that needs to be filled. I was going to say — we have, and I think like most companies, a great bunch of people that are just missing that five-to-ten years of experience, and they'll get that. Smart, energetic — that's what you want. Yeah. And lots of passion in our

34:36world. When we're responding to proposals, they've got to have the experience — so many projects. Or going back to your healthcare proposals: were you a Senior Super on a project? Were you a Senior PM on a winner project? It's like, no, no. They'll all get there, yeah, but it's going to take time. We take a lot of co-ops now from Dal and UNB and wherever we can — NSCC. And it's interesting — I've never seen this before, but, you know, we're offering co-ops — if we find a good

35:06co-op student, they're getting a job a year before they graduate, which so goes against how it was for me, but — right, yeah. And you're jealous. And just last week we had one that had a competing offer. Yeah. In terms of — oh yeah, what is going on here? Well, that's even sight-unseen before you've seen them for a day on the job. The instructors are telling us: you've got to offer them a job before that's finished or they're going to go somewhere else. Yeah, it's like, okay, yeah.

35:33And that's just the way things are right now. Yeah, yeah. So you're pretty much sending the same offer as the co-op — the full-time job offers coming out, yeah. But that's key — getting this younger generation, or not necessarily younger but this next generation that's coming up through NSCC and the engineering programs and stuff like that, construction management — to get them. But there'll always still be that gap there. But so yeah, I think that is a key. And I think it's interesting —

36:01when you made that comment it made me think of — you know, I grew up in the trades, not always easy to ask questions, and, you know, ask the older guys if you didn't know how to do something — you know, I'm talking from like a blue-collar standpoint. And then I've got some experience on the white-collar side as well. The importance of — you know, as leaders with a company such as EllisDon Atlantic — to have an environment where the young

36:31and passionate, like you said, Travis — energetic — but, like you said, Shaun, there's a gap there. To see the different generations kind of working together. There's a lot of talk about Millennials and Gen X, you know, sure, people in boxes that way — different ages, people think differently, they grew up at different times, technology is different, you know, that kind of stuff. But what conscious decisions, or even corporate decisions, do you see being made as far as the culture, like to

37:00have that marriage of, you know, the older generation working with the younger, appreciating both sides, and them learning — like, to speak on that at all. Does that make sense? Was it — are you asking kind of — is it more of a mentorship question? Yeah, yeah, like that. And is there specific kind of things that you've done, or that EllisDon does sort of internally, that've enabled that to happen? Right. I mean, obviously you have apprentices

37:28working with journeymen, and you have seniors working with — there's that kind of stuff too. But like, what's your feel for the openness for the older generation to take the time? Because sometimes you don't have the time, you're always under the gun, you're always under pressure — and that goes from every level, right, from labour right on up to the President or the Chief Estimator with a GC. I think it's just part of our culture — openness. Yeah. I'm struggling to find — like, even

37:58how busy we are, I think even some of the senior staff would always take the time to answer questions. And I know on our side it was always: promote ask — ask as many questions as you have, even the co-ops, even if they're scared. Because someone's listening right now who's scared to ask questions, and then he hears someone like you say, no, please — like, you're happy when they're asking. Yeah. Because a lot of people won't ask. They're engaged, they care enough to ask.

38:21Yeah. And I think that might be part of the hiring process too — like, you get a feel for the person's personality, not to like — they're going to ask questions, yeah, they want to learn. Shouldn't have to draw it out of them. If it's — yeah. No. And we're always looking — I think back to the projects we do, Travis — if we have an Assistant Super, we're always looking to see how can we make that Assistant Super take the next step. Yeah. Or the

38:47coordinator to the assistant, or whatever. Yeah. We're always looking ahead to make — well, that's always the goal. You've got that staff — get them up to the next level. Create supers, create PMs. That's just going to keep growing. And it's up to our senior group to do that. It's up to our senior supers and our senior PMs too. Yeah. But then on the flip side, you have people that are content in the position where they are, and that's

39:12fine too. Yeah, absolutely. And they're needed too, right? But yeah, the ideal is when that person comes in and they just keep growing. And if it's out on site — if it's a coordinator to an Assistant PM, or Assistant Super, and then to a Senior Super or Senior PM — that's great. Yeah. But you need that person above them that's going to be receptive to the questions, push the questions, and, like Shaun says, be a mentor whenever they can. Yeah. And those are

39:39intangible skills too, right? I mean, not every estimator is necessarily a good teacher. Yeah, you know. But if you have a good team and good people, to have all those different sides — that holistic kind of employee that's really skilled and educated at their profession but also has all the intangible skills to teach, and has the intuition with young people and how to — you know, I just find that's — you can't really measure the data on that, right? You can't get hard data on

40:04it. But the dividends probably — that's what's maybe going to make the most difference. Is that why you left estimating? Sometimes I have to get back into it, yeah, just to check up — all right, what's going on with that one over there? He gets checked up on a lot. Travis comes and asks me to take off toilet —

40:28Team effort, team effort. Well, that's funny. Yeah, yeah. I know — that's an interesting — I just think it's an interesting industry. I'm sure it's the same in a lot of other industries, but maybe construction in general you just have different generations working together, a lot of different people from different backgrounds. And I love seeing that when you get someone that's 60 or 70 years old working with someone that's 22. It's great. Yeah. And I think, you know what — you definitely notice

40:57it in the Maritimes, more so probably. Yeah, yeah, for sure, for sure. Other than labour shortage, what are some other big things that are kind of causing tension for you now, Shaun? I mean, there's all kinds of things all the time. But anything on the forefront? Like, other than labour — aside from that. Yeah. You know, I always — obviously we can talk about inflation and construction costs. But I think there's a belief that, you know, some owners think they're going to come down,

41:30or level out, or whatever. I don't think we're going to see that. I think they're here to stay. Travis, correct me if I'm wrong. But that's always my concern — going into some of these projects, the owners don't have the right budgets a lot of the time. Right. So that's the biggest thing you're looking for. That's definitely one of the main concerns that I see. How do you gauge the understanding — if it's not a client that's recurring — the understanding and intuition with the

41:59construction side and the costs? That's got to be a process for you. Yeah. You want to answer that one, Trav? Say that again. Like, just to gauge a client's intuition with the construction side. I think — all right, correct me if I'm wrong — but, you know, take a developer for example. His job — you're dealing with financing and banks and just such a different landscape than actual building, once it's time to put the hole in the ground. Yeah.

42:25So when you're looking at a client, it's obviously a lot of times a big group of public tenders and stuff, but that's out of play when it comes to, you know, how much everything's going to cost and how long things are going to take. I mean, these are the two questions you're constantly — so I think we've lost a lot of projects being open and honest, giving just an opinion in the early stages, when an owner has a concept in their head of

42:52this project's going to cost X dollars, and maybe they have that number in their head from two years ago, or three years ago, or five years ago. And at that stage, we're coming to the table — we have no engagement in the project, we have nothing to lose. More times than not, we'll give them our honest opinion on what it was, because more times than not we've probably built something quite similar in the recent past, and give them a schedule and a budget on it. And it's

43:19— I shouldn't say usually, but we have been — in the past, they just give us the handshake and thank you for your time, they move on. Yeah. And years down the road we find out what they went ahead and kind of ended up where we told them, and how long it took. There was a project, kind of at the end of COVID, where someone had a budget they had published and it was five years old, and that was the budget they still

43:43wanted to work towards. Anyone in construction can tell you how bad escalation hit during COVID and post-COVID — to know that a five-year-old number is unrealistic. But we have those conversations on maybe a weekly basis, of trying to — maybe not defend, but explain — why things cost the way they do right now. And luckily for us, we've got projects across Canada and so much going on locally that we can say, well, here's the cost, this is why, and this is real data right now. And it's not always a

44:13pleasant conversation, but it's better to do it before any money was spent. What else — what other projects did we want to mention? Are there any you kind of want to highlight? I know we were going to mention — we finished the Dal Thermal Plant. Like, a lot of people would know that — we went in and spent, how many years? Four years at Dal, the university — phase by phase, renewing that. Did

44:37the same at Saint Mary's — not as big down here as well, finished that this year. So what type of projects are they again? Sorry — the thermal plant. Yeah, go ahead, Travis. You worked — I was going to say, it's upgrading their heating systems, okay, in kind of that topic when you're talking — just a big mechanical overhaul, yeah. A little universities and students kind of being a little more green, I guess. Yeah. That might be a nice touch. We're at Saint Mary's — we've been

45:03doing a lot of work down there. We have a nice project kind of joining Loyola and this and the Sobeys building together. But at the same time we're doing a big solar wall at Loyola, and that's kind of impressive too, because that's — at least for now, I believe it's still the tallest solar wall in North America. So it's a feather in our cap. And Saint Mary's at the same time. Yeah, I remember reading something about that in recent months. Yeah, so for our listeners, that's — that's a solar cladding.

45:31Yes — solar panels within the cladding, exactly. And then routed through the wall assembly, and it's powering and lighting the common areas — not exactly sure how much power it generates, but it's definitely supporting Loyola. Yeah, yeah, it's pretty neat. I was up there last week on the roof watching them take off the old precast. Yeah, it's quite a cool little project, for sure. Yeah. So you're on Saint Mary's and Dalhousie — that's all you're doing? Lots on Dal, that's for sure. So Saint Mary's, Dal, UNB, and NSCC. Yeah.

46:00And there's the new Rink — the new Dal rink, right, that you're involved with? That's the Event Centre. The Event Centre, sorry. Yeah. So that's been put on hold, on a pause, so we're hopefully — hopefully we'll hear something on that in the coming — but yeah, I think they need it. So fingers crossed that'll get the green light again and we'll get a new arena. So yeah — keep playing at The Forum, yeah. That's right. Although it's got a lot of history there. Yeah, it does too.

46:30But they're talking about doing something up there. That is true, exactly. That'll be interesting — see what happens there. Yeah. The DVA in Charlottetown — we mentioned that earlier — but it's got to employ like a thousand people there in Charlottetown, right? I mean, that's one of the biggest — after it's all renovated? Well, I mean, that's just — I just mean, like, you know, most — I mean, I'm from Prince Edward Island — a lot of

46:55business graduates, so I graduated with a BBA, would go and work at the DVA. And I just think there's a thousand people that are employed there, right? So it's kind of nice that this isn't a reno where it stays open — people work from home and they have some other space in Charlottetown, the Department of Veterans Affairs — while you're building there, which you're starting this month, I think? Yeah, it'll be a pretty cool project. We're pumped. It's a

47:19big reno. Yeah, it's $98 million was our award. And we haven't — we've chased stuff in Charlottetown, we haven't — this will be our biggest PEI project. Yeah. Before that, we built the — he's doing anything PEI? We've tried to, haven't — no, not in my time. No, no — sorry, I interrupted you. No, no — I was going to say the last thing we did was the wastewater treatment plant there, okay, in Charlottetown. Yeah, in 2005, or six, or seven, or something like that. But yeah,

47:48we're pretty excited to be going back. We were looking at the Stratford High School, we looked at the residents at UPEI, so we're always looking at certain things there. Looked at some solar stuff over there as well. Yeah, right. Like I was saying, being from PEI and being around Charlottetown, the DVA is definitely just kind of a cornerstone, you know, for employment. And yeah, an old building though, right? I think long overdue, probably, by the looks of it. Yeah, yeah. Great location too. It's

48:16a great location downtown. Right, yeah. So — widening the corridors, a lot of big overhaul for all electrical, mechanics — it's a massive overhaul for the whole building. Yeah. And just gut the whole place, and yeah. I don't — like, nothing's happening on the outside though, or is there? Oh no, there's some on the outside too — yeah, some cladding work, some window work. Yeah. And then Newfoundland — yeah, we're, you know, if the right opportunity comes around, we'll look at something. But

48:45you know, if a client asks us to go and do something, we probably would. But we're not actively — we just have so much on the go here and in New Brunswick, it's just not a market we need to go get into right now. Yeah. And things haven't been as busy in Newfoundland, you know, the last four or five years. But there's still stuff — you know, healthy but — yeah, exactly. So yeah. And we, you know, we built a few

49:11good projects there — a long-term care facility, we built a residence at Memorial University. Yeah, yeah. So it's not like you haven't had a presence there in the past. Sure. We did the Paradise Two-Pad Arena, we had an office there up to not that long ago, we did the Wedgewood Athletic Complex, and then some other stuff. So yeah, we had some. And you definitely have an office in PEI there, well — just close to the DVA at least, might be a satellite there for now. But

49:38we'll have a presence there for a while. Yeah. So does that mean for you two gentlemen, like, making trips over — monthly, quarterly? Yeah, I would probably be up there every couple of months. Yeah. That's one thing that — I often — you can edit this out if you have to — I get a lot of crap for not being on sites enough. But really? Oh yeah. But it's hard, it's hard just to get out —

50:04— you probably enjoy a day when you do. I do, I do. And you get so busy in the office, I don't think people realise how much we're doing to try to win work, and with the issues that are going on with other stuff or whatever's going on — it's just hard. Hard. While you saw how hard it was to book this? Yeah, exactly. That's fair. No, but seriously — what you were saying — it's such a mental game, such a mental stress, and then just to be able

50:31to get out, yeah, and probably just talk to the guys. So I'm definitely looking forward to being able to go to Charlottetown and be there and go see a cool project. So for both of you, in the industry for this long — with EllisDon for 10 years, Travis, 17 for you, Shaun — family men now, three kids? Both of you have three kids? What excites you most about the industry? You know, if you're talking to the young people out

51:01there that are listening in, that maybe thinking about taking engineering instead of law, or thinking about going to NSCC for Construction Tech, or about getting into a trade — what would your comments be to them? Obviously, you know, things are busy and dive in — but other than that? I just think that, you know, the projects and the industry in general are so complex and big now. We used to say that a $100 million job was huge — that's not huge anymore for us. And look

51:32at the stuff we're doing across the country. So much stuff even in Atlantic Canada — that's double that or triple. Exactly. Like, a $50 million is an average-size job now, and nothing simple, right? Like, I'm not aiming at office buildings — and an office building, but if you look at kind of the stuff that we do, they're all complex, cool projects, right? Yeah, and it makes it exciting. Yeah. And the technology now — whether it's VR or the 3D scanning and stuff that

51:58we do — it's just that should draw more young people. Building sciences and the whole envelope and all that stuff is really cool, even the gear for testing. Yeah, it sounds like you're pretty nerdy. But I can geek out — it's just so different than it was even 10 years ago. Yeah, it's exponential change. Right. It's funny — everything he said — I went and talked to students at the NSCC course a few weeks ago and that was exactly kind of promoting — promoting EllisDon of course,

52:26yeah. And the big push was the complex projects, the unique projects, the cool projects. But on top of that was asking — putting it back on them — because we're kind of at the forefront of the software and technology, asking them what they're learning, what they're doing. And I find they're kind of maybe even a little behind where the industry is on technology and software. But that's the stuff that's going to be — it's kind of cool and impressive. But you need the complex and bigger

52:56projects to incorporate into it. Yes. But it makes it exciting, for sure. And that's what it is — you have to make it exciting. And I say this to our engineering co-op students, and I say it to whatever professor I can talk to, still saying, you know, how are you guys talking about construction to your students? Because they're probably not getting as much interest as other avenues. And I try to explain how technology and how exciting it is and

53:21how cool the projects are. And it's — you've got to sell it a little bit. So, well, even locally, the architects and designers are pushing the limits on what they're building. Like, when you look at the library here, the Nova Centre — like, locally, you don't have to go far. No, yeah. Look at the Halifax Library — I mean, there's not an adjacent line in the home. Nice architecture. Yeah. Mitchell — that was a CM for EllisDon — seemed to be involved in a lot of

53:48those. Yeah. So, back to the technology thing — when it comes to project management, you mentioned software. It's a big thing for estimating, whether it's Bluebeam — there's so many options out there. I say Bluebeam, there's lots of others. FieldWire — that you're still using? So as a whole, EllisDon uses FieldWire. Right, not so much on the estimating side. We're making a switch to CostX, would be our go-to for estimating. Yeah. But we've been, like many —

54:14Excel — Excel's been our go-to for years and years. Excel, yeah. We're trying to catch up with the times. Yeah. I mean, I still do that sometimes myself, you know. I think a lot of people do. Yeah, you know, it doesn't have the integration, but it still gets done what you need. Yeah. And we have our own kind of proprietary system within EllisDon for managing everything, called Gate Three. Right, yeah, I remember seeing the emails. Yeah, yeah. So that's our thing and it's

54:41been going well. Yeah. What's exciting you now about the coming years? Sure. EllisDon has lots of work on the books and lots of things coming up. Yeah, we do. And there's lots coming up, so the future really excites me. Some of these cool projects coming up — we're waiting on probably close to a billion dollars' worth of work right now, and the pipeline

55:11doesn't seem to be slowing down. And, you know, for a — we're still a small market, with a lot of general contractors. I think there's plenty of work for everyone to go around as well. Really? You feel that too — that there's plenty of work for all the GCs that are present? I do. With their own kind of niche, their own projects that they're kind of specialised in. And I would guess that the other GCs are like us, are kind of picking and choosing

55:38the right opportunity, what you're looking at. So you're not looking at everything that moves right now. No, no time — it's staff as well. Yeah, you've got to be picky and choosy. Yeah. So, the future is looking really good. We're just excited to hopefully pick up a few more of these major opportunities and kind of ride the wave. So yeah, it's exciting. I mean, even the projects we talked about that were EllisDon projects — and then there's all kinds of

56:05others that were built by others — but there's a lot of complex, kind of showpiece projects being built. Whether it's the Waterfront Hub in Cape Breton, or yeah, the stuff downtown Halifax, endless stuff on the waterfront, DVA reno in PEI, you know, all kinds of stuff in New Brunswick, and just lots of exciting builds. You know, I look at the stuff we're doing even — the Sydney Waterfront, like you have to go up there and see the building, like it's

56:32absolutely amazing. Yeah, the NSCC campus. NSCC campus. And you know, the stuff we're doing with the universities is just — I don't know when we'll ever see this kind of work come out like it has. An exciting time, isn't it? Absolutely, absolutely. And so, as far as your focus to keep up this billion dollars' worth of work coming down the road in the next — however many future years — just to kind of keep the

56:58foot on the gas and, you know, make sure we're recruiting and doing the right things, keep our pulse — yeah, exactly. Build the brand and, you know, keep our staff happy, and build the staff. Build the staff, and yeah, build that next generation of staff. Right. So that's — fill that gap. That's my kind of key focus over the next few years. I can't retire yet.

57:33It's exciting to hear that from both of you and from EllisDon — that there's, you know, just another sign that there's always going to be issues, whether it's labour shortage and, you know, all kinds of technology that needs to be adopted and things like that, but so many things to be excited about at the same time. And it's a great industry to be in, a good time to be in it, I think. And that's what — oh, 100% — the feeling we get, and yeah.

57:57100%, yeah. So we just want to thank — thank you, Shaun, thank you, Travis. It's been an honour to have EllisDon to be part of the podcast, and touched on some great topics and lots of exciting projects that have happened in the past and happening currently and going to happen in the future for EllisDon. So, perfect. Yeah, I appreciate your time. Thank you. Thanks for having us. This episode is brought to you by Cook Insurance, your trusted insurance broker

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