How Nova Scotia almost killed its solar industry — and the founder who fought back

0:05Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Pleased today to have our guest John Jennex, founder and president of Solar Ascent. Solar's a big topic, hot topic right now, and really happy to have John with us today. Thanks for doing this, John, appreciate you being here. Yeah, thanks a lot for having me, Dan. Yeah, we usually kick off by, you know, just kind of taking us back to how things started, and I know you have an interesting story.

0:36Yeah, about seven years ago now. You were saying before that you got things off the ground, and that's right. Yeah, no, happy to chat about it. It was pretty interesting, but essentially I'm a carpenter by trade. So I'm from the area here, grew up in Dartmouth, went to Saint Mary's University, but like, didn't really see a path forward that was exciting to me. What'd you take there? I took ply, so I mean, go figure. I think I had like thoughts of getting into law.

1:05That didn't pan out. I just didn't want to be sitting at a desk. So anyway, I kind of just bumbled around to a few different jobs and stuff, and got into working with my hands, just helping friends out building, and just kind of fell in love with like the satisfaction of building something and then standing back at the end of the day and getting to look at it. And, you know, I was in my early 20s and it was just like a really good fit.

1:30So I decided to go to Algonquin College just outside of Ottawa. They have a campus there. In their carpentry program, it was called Advanced Housing, so it's just all about building like super energy efficient housing. And that was like, back in the day it was all about the R2000 model, which I think is still kind of around, but it's a bit of a relic, right? So they weren't using terms like net zero homes or no, like I think LEED was like kind of becoming more a thing.

1:55But that was more like commercial, you know. So we were talking like R2000 was like standard. But anyway, yeah, loved it. And yeah, kind of followed that path, got into carpentry, came back home and started a general contracting company with a friend of mine, and we did some really amazing renovation work. And I was really into it and loved it, but that kind of played its course over like the span of like five or 10 years, mostly

2:24focused on renovations and additions. But kind of I hit a point where I just was looking for something a little bit different. Like, there was, it just wasn't that satisfying necessarily at the end of the day. Like we were doing a lot of high-end renovations in the south end, but we were just like ripping out a perfectly good kitchen just to install a slightly newer perfectly good kitchen kind of thing. And I just, I think I was just kind of like, there was an itch that

2:47I was starting to get to maybe do something a bit different. So anyway, that kind of led to just taking a bit of a break to reassess. And I had this idea of like, okay, I'm going to take this old cargo van and turn it into a camper. And so this was like before van life was cool. So it was like, I think it was like 2016, around that time. Yeah. And so through the process of like taking this old cargo van, turning it into a camper van,

3:17there was a solar panel that I wanted to install and set up and feed like a little off-grid setup inside the van. And I just started going down this like solar energy rabbit hole of learning about how it works and how to tie it all together. And it was all just like super interesting to me, just the concept of like being able to generate energy from the sun that you could then use to actually live off of was really, really cool. So I just kind

3:44of started going further and further down that rabbit hole and trying to learn more. And I found a school down in Colorado called Solar Energy International, and they had a bunch of offerings that looked really cool. So essentially the goal of the van became to be to take like a big road trip and headed out west and then down the West Coast and hit up Colorado, and took a bunch of courses with this solar school. And yeah, the rest is kind of history.

4:15By the time I got back home to Nova Scotia, it was like right when they were launching that solar homes rebate. It was fall 2018. And so it kind of took this like niche idea that I had of like, I could do little off-grid builds or I could do, you know, van builds or whatever, and turned it into like, okay, this could actually be like a viable industry, and this is something that we could reach like a lot of people to help, you know, adopt

4:44solar and offset their energy cost and their carbon footprint by producing their own energy. So, yeah, it's kind of how it all started. Did you have an interest or kind of a bone to pick with like the whole renewable energies and moving away from fossil fuels? Like was that something that you were always interested in? Or totally. Yeah, okay. So it was there. That was definitely there. Like my younger years I spent doing a lot of like

5:15ecotourism work. So doing a lot, like used to be a sea kayak guide. So it was like, you know, taking people on trips on the ocean, and the environmental piece was always like a huge motivator for me. Like I've always loved the outdoors. You know, and the idea of getting to do something about, you know, climate change and trying to live more sustainably. Because like no matter how you feel necessarily about, you know, climate change, there's, I think that we all

5:44know that there's more that we could be doing to live more sustainably. So solar energy felt like a good next step for me, and a cool kind of piece of that puzzle of like, okay, like I feel really good at the end of the day that when we fire up a system and we commission it, and you can actually go and see that meter spinning backwards on somebody's house where they're actually now at this moment in time producing more energy than they need, and that

6:13solar energy is going out to the grid and their neighbors get to use it, and they get credit for putting it on the grid. That always just felt like magic. Like this is so cool that we are now flipping this switch, you're now your own renewable energy power plant and offsetting your energy needs. So that's cool. That's cool. I think, like, you're like, I think of different businesses and people's different passions, and like, that's kind of your critical point of like, that's when

6:39you get that satisfaction, all the hard work is worth it. It's like this, just seeing that happen. And yeah, you know, 100%. Like I don't think that that feeling will ever go away, of like the excitement of commissioning a system. I don't get to do it myself as much anymore, but yeah, there's something that just feels so good about flipping that switch and seeing that actually in real time, like seeing the meter spin backwards is super cool. Yeah, it's cool too to think about your story, and you

7:07know, kind of connecting threads here. But people's stories of how they ended up, especially entrepreneurially, are always so interesting. And like, you can see a thread of like, you know, you took carpentry, you could have took carpentry at NCC or somewhere, but happened to be Algonquin, when at the time, you know, the efficiency term was R2000. And but still, you were in that kind of realm of like thinking about efficiency and thinking about building homes with efficiency and having a building envelope that was, you

7:36know, so, like those different steps, like, you know, and your different experiences kind of all led to everything. Kind of you can see the connections in different parts of your life and in your school, like, and where you are now, right? So that's kind of interesting to look back and think of like, yeah, it's cool to pull that thread. And it's like, it's nice to, like, I fully recognize that as the solar energy contractor, like, you know, we are kind of the last thing

8:02that you should be doing for your home if you want to make it as sustainable as possible. Like you should make sure that you've got good insulation, you should make sure that you got good windows that aren't leaking and stuff like that. But once you get to a point of like, okay, my house is now pretty efficient, and we're not talking like passive house certified, like, we can now offset most people's energy needs, you know, in a reasonably insulated home, with solar energy as long as you have a decent roof for it.

8:28That's obviously a big piece. But now it's like, it's bridging that gap of, you know, going from, you know, a slightly better than code home to, to now you're up to net net zero essentially, because you're offsetting your consumption with solar energy. And it's all pretty doable now because the technology has just come so far. So yeah, I think that it's cool to have seen this from both sides of it. There's like the building side of the house and understanding the house as a system, and

8:56and how that all plays into it. But then there's also the side of it of like, okay, now let's make up for all of those draws with production, and being able to do that and kind of being on that side of it now, it's pretty cool. We get to take a lot of the glory. You just come in and like flip the switch and everybody loves their solar energy, but we fully understand that we're kind of standing on the back of giants with

9:18you know, a lot of builders doing really great work too. Yeah. And you mentioned, like obviously, you know, sometimes this can have to do with culture and geographic location and stuff like that, but just the acceptance of solar, you know, probably in the inception of your business seven years ago, now it's becoming more and more mainstream, and there's more and more companies and more investors that are kind of getting into this arena. It's something that everybody's, you know, it's just one of them things, like, you know, different

9:44life cycles, and then just kind of becomes the norm. It's like, yeah, you know, so having solar maybe 10 years ago would be one in 100, now it's, yeah, it's every third one or something, right, like to that degree. So when did you find, from starting the business, like, was it year two, three, four, when you kind of realized like, okay, this is, or was it a real grind at first to kind of make that business development leap for local people residentially, right? Yeah, it's

10:13it's been really interesting. That first couple years especially, so much of what we were trying to do was the client education piece. So, you know, we were trying to sell them on like, you know, why you should be working with us, Solar Ascent, and why we're great at what we do and all that, but we were also like trying to sell them on solar energy as, you know, an idea and a concept as well. Just because there's a big piece where it was just, you know, it was

10:38such a new technology, and you know, I think that it's normal that there's a bit of like mistrust of new things until people start to see it on more and more houses, which is kind of where we are now, now that we're like six-ish years in, to it really becoming a bigger industry here. So we've definitely seen that. That early on was more about like educating people on solar energy, and we still do some of that, but now it's more

11:04competitive. There's more companies, and there's just a lot more solar out there, so there's a bit more trust in the technology. So I think that that's been really interesting. Kind of like, we do relate it a little bit, it feels anyway, like it's similar to the heat pump contractors, how, you know, there was just like a point at which the technology became mature enough that it was, you know, better at colder temperatures, and all of a sudden okay,

11:36yeah, this is a way to actually heat your house. And then once that early adoption kicked in, like the industry just kind of exploded, and now there's like heat pumps everywhere and heat pump contractors all over the place. And it's kind of similar with solar energy. We're just obviously like probably a decade behind the heat pump world. But, you know, solar panel efficiency hit a certain point where it was just like became easier for people to adopt and get more out of their roof space. Because

12:03you can just get more watts on a roof, so more production ability on, you know, a standard home roof, whereas, you know, 10 or 15 years ago it'd be half the system size using that same area. So there's that, and then there's just also the cost of the technology have come down a bit in the last couple years especially. So yeah, we're definitely seeing more and more adoption, which is great, in Nova Scotia, and it's just becoming a more trusted technology for sure. Yeah, Solar

12:32Ascent definitely a local pioneer. Hopefully, you know, having gotten through the first seven years, you'll see the next seven where you're in the forefront kind of leading the pack, and as it becomes more of the norm, you know, you'll benefit from that, reap the reward. So I'm hoping, for sure. Like I think that we're seeing a lot more uptick in commercial now too, which is great. For a while there was no real pathway to install much on the commercial side.

12:59But that coupled with some really good tax incentives, we're seeing more and more interest there. So we're trying to split our focus, doing residential and commercial. Our goal is probably to be like 50/50. We're probably like 70/30 residential still. Yeah. But we're really enjoying getting more into the commercial side of things. Yeah, that's interesting too, because I feel like that's for a lot of contractors, whether it's something in renewable energy like yourself, like solar supply and install, or any trade really, like a lot

13:31of times there is that point in time where you kind of take the leap from doing a lot of smaller volume jobs, not that they're less important or less to be proud of, and then you can focus your volume on, now that's what happens from the jump to residential to commercial, right? It's a bit of a lot, just some different dynamics, but like that's a milestone that a lot of people have to kind of navigate through. Yeah, absolutely. And we, you know, we like having that mix, having

13:59smaller residential and then the larger commercial jobs too. Like, and we kind of have that expertise on the team now, which is nice to see, where it's like we can knock out a big commercial job and it's not like a massive effort anymore, and some of our favorite projects are on the commercial side. So it's really cool to see different organizations asking for solar, like especially as they're like doing a build, they want solar incorporated. So then the general contractors are out

14:29there searching and trying to find people to install solar. So that's been really good. Some of our favorites so far have been affordable housing organizations that are doing builds. So that's been pretty awesome, because we get to be part of helping with that as well. So we're currently working with Dartmouth Housing, Bruno is the builder on one, and that's been a really awesome project. Which one is that, how many units? I think that it's a 30 unit, 30 range that it's

15:03going on, if I remember correctly. And so your scope, is it a solar roof element? Yeah, so it's, they're, it's like a standing seam metal roof, and it's going to have solar fastened to it. So it's sloped roof, and standing seam is awesome because we can use these clamps that just go right onto the seams, we don't have to penetrate. The standing seam is like one of your kind of, that's a green flag for you. But is there certain roof types that make it more difficult, like kind of

15:29the ones you don't like to see as far as your scope, not that the owner maybe does cares or the architect, but it's like, if you're going to go with solar, like what's a good roof? And obviously just explains that. We've got like different solutions for whatever the roof, like asphalt shingles, like we talk about that one too. But then even metal, whatever the profile, we've got different solutions for. But if it's not a standing seam metal roof, like we do have to penetrate through the metal to

15:57fasten to the structure, whereas if it's standing seam we don't have to. So that's like the thing, the structure sound enough really loves that. Yeah, like they not having to put any holes on this brand new expensive roof kind of thing. But we actually, yeah, exactly, we actually love asphalt shingles, like as solar installers, like as long as it's in decent shape. The supplier that we work with, they have this product where it's actually like metal flashing plates that tie into the shingle course. Yeah, so you

16:28know, you put your, here you put your piece on in the structure to fasten directly the structure of the roof, and then that all gets covered and kind of tied into the course of the asphalt above. So by the time you walk away from it, it's pretty bomb proof, which is awesome. So would you use a different spec solar panel for a different kind of roof? Or, and does it still function the same no matter what that underlayment is, or what the color is, or how the sun

16:54reacts, is there kind of things you have taken perspective there? There's lots of different products on the market. Like the big, like mostly commercial viable solar panel that's out there these days, the cells themselves are called monocrystalline cells. You know, five or so years ago you'd see some polycrystalline, which had more of that like bluish shade to them. So like on older pictures you see like a solar panel tends to have a really blue tint to it. But these mono cells are more black

17:20in color. And so the demand seems to have kind of moved manufacturing into like a black-on-black kind of look for the residential side. So the cells are all black, the frames are all powder-coated black aluminum, and it looks super sharp. Like we can get black clamps and everything, so when you stand back and look at it, it's just all black, which is pretty cool. That's been really popular. We're also seeing manufacturing move towards bifacial. So bifacial just means that the backside of the solar panels is clear,

17:52like the back sheet is clear. So if there's any like refractory light that bounces around underneath, like the array behind the panel, you get a little bit extra juice from it because it's actually like working from both directions. It's less relevant on rooftops and more relevant on ground mounts when there's like more space in behind. So that's become more of a thing. But in terms of like how we choose what panel fits best on what roof, we often just look at fit. So like, you

18:24know, if it's a really chopped up hip roof, for example, we might want to go with a smaller solar panel that we can just fit more, more about the layout than it is the product underneath. Yeah, exactly. And that being said, like on commercial jobs we do tend to use bigger panels just because there's, you know, more of them typically and stuff like that, more space to work with, and on residential they tend to be a bit smaller, but the physical size doesn't necessarily mean there's a

18:49difference in efficiency. Like it's just literally like it's a smaller panel, so it's a slightly smaller lower wattage, whereas a larger panel is going to have a higher wattage because it's larger. But efficiency, like they're all coming in at like 21, 22% efficient these days in terms of what we're getting from suppliers. Which, like when you think of that, it's like, well, my boiler is 98% efficient. But the thing about solar is that the fuel is free, right? So, 22% efficient with free fuel is actually

19:17still pretty sweet. Yeah. And on that thread, I don't want to get too far off topic, 'cause all kinds of stuff we're going to talk about. Because I don't have a lot of knowledge about renewable energy and the technical side, like some of our listeners will, like obviously you do. But when it comes to like other sources of renewable energy and like capacity factor, like that would tie into this 22% that you just mentioned, right? Like there's capacity factors and how, you know, you have to take into

19:38perspective the fuel that you're using is the sun, it's a natural resource. And totally, you know. So were there other, or are there other types of renewable energy like that you kind of considered or thought about, or like is it something that you might in the future, yeah, not that you have any immediate plans, but, like, branch out into other forms of renewable other than solar? 'Cause I think solar has the best capacity factor, totally, you talk about like wind farms and other sources? Of, yeah, it's

20:04funny. I mean, we often get questions about small scale wind turbines, so like that's become more of a thing. And obviously like, you know, it's Nova Scotia, we get really good wind here, so people will sometimes ask. And isn't our wind here and like towards Prince Edward Island like some of the best as far as geographically in the world, other than the Netherlands where the origin of wind farms came from or something? No, I think it's really, really good. And I'm a

20:31bit out of my depth on the wind side, but I know that when I look at like, if you're just to compare a wind, like a small scale residential wind turbine, like I've seen some European companies popping up where you could get a 7 kilowatt or a 5 kilowatt wind turbine and pop it on your roof. And obviously like you'd have to really model out the wind that we get and how much power that's going to generate over the course of a year to give it a really good

20:57apples to apples comparison into solar. But the big advantage when I was like playing around with pricing, like, yeah, is this something we could get into, we'd have to change the company name, but we could do that, Solar and Wind Ascent kind of thing. But yeah, like the big kicker for me was just, with solar there's no moving parts, like there's no maintenance. And so when I looked at the warranties of what's available for like a small scale wind turbine, it caps out like 3 years. So

21:25if you're having to replace your wind turbine every 3 years with at least the cost that I was seeing, it just didn't make any sense compared to solar. Whereas solar, like the warranties, for the most part the solar panels have warranties of 25 years, and most of the electronics are between 10 and 25 years for warranties too. So it's just like, it's really about the long-term play. And that's a big part of our discussions with our potential clients too. It's like you really kind of have to feel good about

21:55like, okay, yeah, I'm going to be living here for a bit, or like this business, I see living, like working out of this building for a while. Yeah, 'cause there is a bit of an investment. So you know, if you're not sure you're going to be there in 3 to 5 years, like, yeah, you can still do it, and you know you're going to probably see that benefit when you go to sell the house or sell the building or whatever, because it's an asset that you own that's offsetting

22:17a fixed cost. But yeah, for the most part, I totally lost my train of thought, totally got there. It's okay, and it happens, we're deep in, deep in content here. No, it makes a lot of sense. Yeah, it does. And yeah, I think just to kind of draw it back, the financials for solar are so dependent on long-term plays, whereas with the wind turbines, yeah, because of the moving parts, like the wearing components and all of that, that would be my only

22:47kind of thought on the wind piece. Yeah, no, it's interesting. Talk a little bit about, because you're, you know, you're in the energy business really, and because of that fact, and because we have this huge, I mean, call it, you know, the shift, the sustainable shift, where there's so many incentives, financially, for having a more energy efficient building, right? It's just, can't escape that in our industry, and not that you'd want to, but it's, you know, like there's a lot of financial incentive. But

23:21it's also, when it comes to, you know, green buildings, it's an issue that kind of, it hits on every level, right? It's political, it's environmental, it's financial. It's, so there's, you know, Efficiency Nova Scotia, you have NS Power. Yeah. You're a company that's kind of here, you mentioned the nonprofit sort of association that started locally for solar, and you're part of that, you're on the board. Just talk a little bit about that perspective of like what it's like kind of dealing with

23:55some of these different parties in the energy world locally and how that kind of transpires. Yeah, it was something that when I first got into it, one thing I really didn't realize is just how political generating power is. Yeah. Like there's so much politics in energy and the production of energy. So that was really eye-opening. And I'm sure some of the listeners will remember, but there was, there's your poly sci coming in. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, I guess that's why I was

24:28there, so yeah, that thread all ties in too. Yeah. But no, like I'm sure some of the listeners will remember, but back in, it was January 2022, Nova Scotia Power introduced what they called the system access charge. And so basically they were saying, okay, so like since 2018, from 2018 to 2022, in January, they saw like a lot of adoption of solar. They were concerned about it getting too big, they were concerned about it putting some strain on the grid, which, you know, given the

25:01size of this industry, we're still so small in comp, strain on the grid in terms of like, but having considered that it would also give back to the grid. Yeah, it was kind of funny. And I don't want to necessarily put words in their mouth, but their argument was people who adopt solar are benefiting from the infrastructure in a way that people that don't have solar aren't. So basically like adopting solar and getting to use the grid infrastructure to sell back the power

25:32that you don't need in your home was an unfair advantage to others. And so they wanted to shift some of the cost of this burden, and again I'm just kind of trying to recap what was presented to us, to the people that adopt solar. So they wanted to implement this system access charge, but it wasn't very well thought out at all. Like it would have just totally killed the solar industry. Like for a typical homeowner, the system access charges would have added up to something like

26:001,000 bucks a year. So like a ton of money that you would just be paying in additional fees to Nova Scotia Power. Because that's the other money that is required to like start to see some payback in your system. So you need to see the full savings of the solar energy system to actually reach a payback at some point in time. If you're having to cough up $1,000 a year to Nova Scotia Power for the system access charge, we ran some models on it and it was just

26:26like a total no-no. So that was a huge problem, and it just kind of came out of nowhere. And so we banded together as an industry, because we were starting to become a more mature industry at that point in time, and some of the larger players got heavily involved with Solar Nova Scotia, which is this not-for-profit advocacy group for solar energy adoption in Nova Scotia, that's been doing awesome work for decades. And thankfully we were able to kind of

26:58put up enough of a stink through public outreach and getting people to write letters to their constituents, and it all got reversed. And it's all been pretty good since, but it was a big scare for sure. Like we weren't really sure what was going to happen, and it really hurt consumer confidence for a while too. Like we still have these conversations with people, this is more than two years later, where people are like, I thought Nova Scotia Power shut down this, or like, is

27:28there a chance of them trying to do that again, or what would happen if I adopt solar and then they come out with new rules? And thankfully it all landed in a really good place. Like the province really had our back, which was great. So they kind of stepped up and made sure that there's some daylight between, you know, the solar energy industry, especially on the residential side, and what Nova Scotia Power can say and do to change the rules. And so it's

27:53it's all, yeah, we're in a pretty good spot with it at this point in time. But yeah, that was a big eye-opener of just how quickly stuff like that can happen, and just how politically charged this topic is. But yeah, I mean the province has been pushing solar for years now, you know, from the onset of the solar homes program through Efficiency Nova Scotia that was like really heavily supported by the province. So it does seem like there's, you know,

28:18we're all trying to get to these really ambitious 2030 goals, but it seems like we're all coming at it from slightly different directions. So it's been interesting. No, that's really informative and interesting. It's also gives a lot of context to, as, and I think we were chatting earlier about, you know, different kinds of businesses and different sizes and different levels of comfort. And you're in your first few years, you know, I was saying earlier that you have a six-month-old and

28:48a three-year-old, you know, and that was three years into your business. Yeah. But those first three years are really tough, right? And like you're carrying a vision forward, and you know, you can only, so many setbacks, you know, one big setback and it's over, right? So if you're in an arena that's quite political, you know, a lot of decisions that you have no control over, yeah, can just shaft you, right, you're done, and it's not your fault, it's something you can do about it. And this

29:12is kind of like gives context to people who are pioneers like yourself, and like Solar Ascent the organization, like, you know, you've gone through that journey. But someone had to take the risk, right? And like, if those things could have went the other way, totally, even if it took them another two years maybe to make that decision, or they put it on the back burner for some other decisions they thought were more important, exactly, and then, you know, you don't have a business. Yeah, right. So it just shows you

29:38like how quickly you can, yeah, yeah, you got to work hard, you need to have a little bit of luck, you got to work hard, but there's so many things that are outside your control in those first few years, right, for a startup. For a startup, like a startup is a different animal, right? And then people get to this point where they're 20 years in and life is comfortable, and maybe you look at them and say like, oh, if he can do it, I

29:57can do it. But then you don't, sometimes you don't realize like what that person's been through who carried that forward, right? Yeah, no, it's so true. And I think that we probably all have a bit of a case of like, you know, we sometimes feel like, oh, our industry is so hard, and in reality, like everybody goes through the challenges. But I do like refer to ours as the solar, sometimes, it's kind of, it's a term that's been coined in other markets, you know, are far beyond ours in terms of solar

30:26adoption. But yeah, it's funny because it's political, there's like the rebate and financing programs that seem to come and go, like especially with different governments changing hands. We'll see, how can you have any influence on that as part of the Solar Nova Scotia, like that association? Like, yeah, we're trying our best for sure to like to make sure that we have a voice in some of those decisions and those processes. But one that happened fairly recently is that there was a

30:58$5,000 grant available through the federal government that was called the Canada Greener Homes Grant. And you know, it was just like, it was one of those ones that, it's through the Fed, so like it's really hard to have much sway over that. And it was so popular that they just blew through all the cash available, right? And so you know, part of you wants to think, well, if it's so popular, maybe they'll fund it again. And that didn't happen. Or maybe that's why they won't fund, maybe that's why they

31:24won't fund it again. Yeah. And who knows, like in the future things could change, but yeah, it's funny, like we try to impact what we can on the local level. With the national side of it, it's a bit different. But yeah, there's the rebates and financing, and then there's like the supply chain stuff, like, which I'm sure everybody feels, having gone through a global pandemic in that chunk of time since we started too has been a whole other side

31:52of, you. Yeah, you'd have some different things to deal with there than a lot of other contractors, like, where, what's your logistics and supply chain? Yeah, what's that look like? A lot of suppliers from other countries, central Canada? Yeah, we've just kind of been focused purely on the suppliers of solar energy equipment based in Canada, and we're letting them do a lot of the importing of the equipment, and then we buy from them, and they've all been great. And thankfully, like the industry here in

32:22Nova Scotia is matured to the point that a lot of them have like local presence, so like warehouses in Dartmouth, that's solar energy equipment, stuff like that. So it makes like the procurement side of it so much easier. Like because when we first started, yeah, everything was getting shipped in from Ontario or beyond to get our gear. So that's been nice to see, as the industry matures, like the supply chain gets a little bit smaller. But definitely like their ability to get equipment

32:50from overseas, 'cause like a lot of the solar panels themselves, or at least the components, all come from like southeast Asia especially, so there's a big supply chain kind of hurdle to get through. How is it for you with cash flow and billing cycles and different clients and new projects you're working on or know you're going to be working on, like, to, I imagine there's some pretty big bills and some pretty big lead times for some of this stuff, right? Totally, yeah, no,

33:16it's again, it's one of the big challenges that we face, is cash flow. Like we're just a purely kind of bootstrap startup company, no big financial backers, so we've just kind of grown year-over-year. And you know, we have some good banking partners that, you know, we've got a decent line of credit, stuff like that, but the amount of money that's just coming in and out at all times is super challenging. And cash flow is a huge constraint, because like I see a lot of potential for growth in

33:44this business, but it's tough for us to get to larger jobs especially, like as we get into commercial. You know, just being able to procure to install the equipment becomes challenging because of payment terms and everything else. Yeah, you almost need to have just a separate cash flow plan to take on some of that stuff, right? Totally. Yeah, I feel like, and I think just in terms of different guests we've had on, you know, I would, I

34:12wouldn't say you're a building envelope contractor, but the work you're doing is on the building envelope, right? And the thing with it when it comes to the finishes, right, whether it's glazing or it's any number of different cladding assemblies, and the reason why, you know, there's so many contractors out there that do a lot of that work, but when it comes to a certain volume, it just, without the capital you can't even entertain the idea of taking on some of those projects, right? You have to have

34:36the capital to procure. Yeah, and to, I mean that's really what those companies are, the procurement companies, they're procuring those materials, right? Like whereas most people just aren't able to take on that risk. Yeah. Yeah, and we've been pretty fortunate, like, you know, we've worked with a lot of great residential, commercial clients, and like we've managed to always like, you know, make payroll and pay our bills and all that stuff, but it definitely does get tight at times because of just the cost

35:03of the equipment. You know, it's like, solar panels are expensive, like all the electronics are super expensive. So yeah, we walk a fine line. We've got an awesome finance manager and logistics guy that, you know, which it's a lot of just-in-time production, but you know, make it work for sure. And I think that's another thing that becomes more encouraging as we grow and have good years under our belt, is like I can start to see a pathway of like, as we

35:32scale, you know, our ability to access capital gets a little bit easier too. So I look forward to being back here when I hit that 20-year mark and think about how nice, hopefully we're still around. Yeah, exactly. No, it's good. You mentioned your financial manager, and just like there, sometimes there's different roles at different times in businesses that just mean everything, right? You have the right guy in that role, or if you have the wrong guy, it can get away from you pretty quick. Yeah, to

35:58most of your installers, what's their background? Are they carpenters, are they? So yeah, we've like, I don't know, I don't know how it happened, but we've just gotten so lucky with the people that have been attracted to the business. I think that it's just like, it's a weird enough, niche enough thing that it attracts people that, you know, yeah, they want to work with their hands, but they want to make a difference, they want to do something that's kind of like, the cool tech part of it is pretty cool. So

36:21somehow we've just managed to like, yeah, attract a lot of really great people. It's been really awesome, like people tend to stick around. So we're doing everything that we can for that and to try and keep that going for sure. Are you circulating like a crew of six to 10 people or more? Or, yeah, so our current model is we run two crews full-time. So we'd have like two truck and trailer setups, and it's typically crews of four that go, and

36:50then if we have a commercial project they tend to work together. But it's such a quick turnaround, like, you know, for a typical residential project we'll get there, and it has to happen in stages because of the inspections with Nova Scotia Power. So you know, we get there for a day and we get the racking on, that has to get inspected by Nova Scotia Power, and then after the inspection we can go back and put the solar panels on, so install the panels and commission the system. So typically

37:17for a residential project we're only there for two days, and it's typically broken up because of the inspection. So it's a lot of moving parts of just like, you know, we don't ever want there to be a day that we don't have somewhere to go for a crew, so that becomes stressful. So yeah, I, yeah, we kind of had a realization earlier this year, just like, we're kind of a logistics company, like that's really like such a huge part of what it is that we do, is just making

37:42sure that we have the right people, the right gear in the right spots, and moving in the right direction. So yeah, we've got a project coordinator that's just like on it and making sure that everything's moving where it needs to go. And yeah, the logistics side of the business we've really been appreciating as we scale, because I think that's another interesting thing, just businesses in general, is that as you grow, the new challenge in front of you changes, right? So you know, it's always something. Yeah,

38:06logistics was the one that we kind of tried to really master this year, and that's been pretty cool, putting a bunch of energy into that. Yeah, talk a little bit more about the commercial stuff. I mean, some past projects that you've done, like a private one would be like, is it Cosman's honey plant, or the honey? Yeah, or the Sackville Library as it would be, a public one. About those jobs, like just in terms of like, you know, maybe were the rebates involved for the

38:34owner, if it's the province on the library or the municipality, or for the private company, did they receive, did they go through different processes for theirs? And just about those projects in general, they must have been milestone projects, kind of. 100%, yeah. No, those were both huge projects for us, they were kind of our first commercial projects, like moving into that world. So super grateful for those. And it's interesting with commercial clients, and residential too, but everybody comes at it from a slightly different

39:03angle, and they've got different motivations potentially. So when it comes to like private business, like Cosman's honey and other like agriculture kind of businesses, they do have like funding streams that are available periodically. We're seeing a big funding incentive in the fisheries world right now too, so through Efficiency Nova Scotia you can get a bunch of money to install solar on your, you know, lobster processing facility or something like that, right? So with Cosman's it was an agriculture incentive,

39:41and I don't know all of the details on how much they got covered, but it tends to take the payback from, you know, what would typically be like a 10-year payback of a system with no incentives to, like on a commercial scale anyway, and it drops it down like in half kind of thing. So like there's still an investment on behalf of the business owner, but there's a lot of great incentives out there right now. So even just commercial in general, there's a tax credit, it's

40:08called the Clean Technology Investment Tax Credit, and any business that's a for-profit business can access it, and you can get 30% back in the overall cost of the project in tax credits. And then you can stack that on top of other rebates that are available depending on what industry you're in. So we're kind of at that point of the commercial industry that we're doing a lot of educating, and like we're trying to tell more and more people about solar, because the word is just not really

40:38out there about a lot of these incentives. So we're trying to do that work as well, as like spread word about, you know, these are the programs that are available, in addition to like, you know, we're the company to go with kind of thing. Yeah. And then with the Sackville library that we did, that was another awesome project with HRM. And HRM just has like really awesome targets through like that Halifax right action plan. They're really aggressively investing in solar

41:11energy, in particular on any of their buildings that are suitable for it. So some buildings, like especially older buildings, if they got flat roofs, they might not have the structure to support the weight of a solar energy system once you add all the ballast. Because typical flat roof systems, you know, we don't want to penetrate a flat roof membrane, so a tly mod bit, so like we're literally just adding enough concrete block to hold this thing down so that whatever the wind load, you don't have to worry about it moving. So

41:43um, that being, so it's a great solution for not compromising the roof membrane, but it does add a lot of weight to the roof. So you need to have the engineering approval to say like, yeah, this roof can hold the extra 5 pounds of square foot or whatever it might. I wonder what that would do for an EPDM roof, like some of the rubber roof options, 'cause I know those aren't really suitable to put under any kind of walkways on the rooftop and stuff. So I

42:06wonder what that would, how that would affect the fact that whether or not solar would work in those scenarios or not. There's solutions out there for EPDM for sure, yeah. There's, we haven't done any EPDM in particular, but there's lots of different roofing types that we're seeing solar go on. So yeah, flat roofs can be great, but that's the side of it, is you need to have the structure. So yeah, like the municipalities we're seeing a lot more

42:33adoption because they have their own climate goals too. So we're seeing more RFPs come up for different municipalities for installing solar than the Sackville library. Have you, are there other kind of public jobs that you've done some solar elements on in recent years? Or, yeah, we did the Tatamagouche library, okay, as well. And then we've applied, did a bunch of RFPs for different municipalities, but we're, yeah, got some irons in the fire that we're hopeful on. Yeah, nice. Yeah, are

43:04you like, are you out there kind of engaged at all on the business development side with like private developers or architects who you know might be able to, just for inroads, and like design and stuff like that? Or, yeah, we're trying. Takes a lot of work to do that, it does, yeah. And it's like any business that, you know, we're trying to really prioritize where we should be putting our focus, into the spots that kind of give us the best return, because there's no limit

43:32of what you can do kind of thing. So what we've so far been trying to focus on is like the big electrical contractors, reaching out to them, if they want to partner in solar, being their go-to, just because they tend to already have those relationships. So if we can become the solar go-to for the big electrical contracting players, then you know, we make their life easy for when they have to put numbers together for an RFP that is solar, and then it also just makes life a lot

43:59easier when it comes time to install, because we're directly connected to them, we know like what the project schedule is, when they're doing their runs would be when we would get in there and do ours too. So you've got some good relationships with local electrical contractors? Exactly, yeah. We're trying to foster those relationships as well. But like you said, it's also great to know the consultants and the architects and the engineers, because when they're drafting the plans, if we can get in and kind of give them some

44:27advice on like, here's what we could do with this building or these plans, then it obviously gives us a foot in the door. Yeah, I think you're going through that phase right now on a job, in 73 Tacoma, right, where you reached out, you're, you know, you're engaged in the design, and they're, you know, leaning on you for, and that's a solar wall system on that project out in Cole Harbour. So totally. Do you foresee there being more building envelope solar in commercial, on not just the roof, but solar

44:56walls too? 'Cause that's kind of the first one that's around, right, locally. It is, for all that size, yeah. For what it is that we're trying to do, I don't believe that anybody's done this specific thing. Like I think that SMU did a big solar siding project, but it was a bit different, it was like a siding product, project, product that they were using, whereas we're just really using solar panels as a siding part. So I'm super, I'm stoked about that project. I think

45:27that could really lead to something big and important, because essentially, you know, it helps to have a buddy in the commercial cladding world. But talking it out with him and knowing kind of his processes and his cost and kind of the materials that he uses, it's not that different. If you look at like an ACM panel versus a solar panel, square footage cost, it's pretty similar. So if you could figure out how to integrate, you know, using solar panels, traditional solar panels that we can get

46:01at a great price, and integrating that into like the rain barrier, weather barrier, like everything of the assembly of the siding, which I think is kind of what happened at SMU, 'cause the Mitrex brand or something, is, I think that's an EllisDon job, and I'm not sure who installed it, but that is like, right, what you're saying, the solar panel is within that panel, exactly, which is the finish, whether ACM or whatever, the, yeah. Yeah, so it's, I think it's going to, you

46:30know, it'll take a bit to like kind of get through this first one and figure it out and all the bits and pieces of it, but I think that there's huge potential there, because if you're also on the envelope doing the walls, there's a lot more square footage surface area on these building envelopes, and if it's just a flat roof or if it's just one side of the roof on the south side that's angled or whatever, totally, then you have more surface area to get more

46:54consumption, right? Because I think at SMU they power all the corridors just from that one elevation, right? Exactly, yeah. No, you have more surface area to work with, and obviously you don't want to go on the north side, but you know, south side for sure, and probably east and west you can get enough power to justify it. But even if it was just like, you know, an accent of a siding kind of profile or something like that, like I think that there's massive opportunity there for

47:19people to start looking at that as an option. Yeah, that's really cool to think about. Yeah, for sure. Yeah, I mean I know we could talk all day here, if there's anything that we didn't mention that we want to mention. But I do, I want to make sure we get to just, I think just the challenges for a lot of people in your position, have so many friends that are in their fourth, fifth, sixth, seventh year of business, and they've started their own thing, and just

47:45just the trying to, the family work balance, and just, you know, you've got two kids at home, and it's you and your wife, and is she involved in the business at all, or is she not at the moment? She's, so she's like a super talented artist, okay, and so she was helping out a lot with like the marketing stuff, which was awesome, so like graphic design, she just has like a natural eye for, okay. So that was really awesome, and I miss having her help, but she's so busy now

48:11with the six-month-old that we've had to put pause on that, but I'm sure she'll get back to it eventually. But no, it's been a heck of a ride for sure, like, you know, having a toddler and a newborn, and then a business that's like rapidly growing, like we grew like 28% year-over-year last year, and I think on average like somewhere around 25. So it just feels like, yeah, I'm holding on for dear life and trying to keep it on

48:39the rails. And yeah, being a dad to young kids, you no longer have like the quantity of hours available that I used to really have to lean on. So it's like now just making sure that when I do have time to focus on work, I'm just really focused on, you know, what's, you're making the most out of those hours, right? Yeah, exactly. So that's been a bit of a shift, is I don't have that ability to just like, I'll just work late tonight, or I'll just get up super early and bang

49:06this out or whatever. So that's been good, and it's also like forced me to lean more on my team, which I think has been really good, right? Because I think like a lot of entrepreneurs can be a real control freak of how I want things done. Yeah. But it's a balance too, you know, when's the time to let go. And because without delegating you can't, was just saying delegate, elevate, delegate to elevate or something. But it's true, it's cliche but it's so true, you can

49:30only do so much yourself, right? Yeah. And if you want to, and there's another cliche, it's like if you want to go fast, go alone, but if you want to go far, go together kind of thing, where it's like, that's the goal is like we want to go far, like we see a lot of potential with this business. So it's been really awesome, like trying to do that delegating, empowering the team, moving people up in the ranks too has been really awesome, like all of our like

49:56upper level positions that we have have all just been like folks that have like started with an entry level position and then kind of work their way up, which has been really awesome. So yeah, we're trucking along and yeah, making the most of it for sure. Yeah. And I brought that up earlier too, because I want to ask just in terms of like, and if it's too personal just please let me know, I know you will, but just, you know, when it comes to, you know, for us as

50:25men, just masculinity and in our culture and stuff, but like, whenever you're a leader like yourself, you're carrying your business forward, the financial stress is on you, right? It's on your shoulders. Not all on you, sometimes it is, but at least a lot more on you than it is most of the people, right? And so the vision's carrying forward, people are making a living, you know, if mistakes are made, sometimes your mind can go to dark places. But totally, and then so the first three years, you mentioned earlier, you

50:53know, that was before your kids were born. Yeah, right. And those are tough years, getting something off the ground. It's one thing to take over a business or to grow a business that already exists, but to start something from nothing. Yeah. So you're, say thank God those years were before I had children, but now that you have kids, like, the more weight to it, right? Like you have dependents, you have children that are young. If, you know, before, if things don't work out well, you

51:20know, but now. So do you feel that pressure, do you feel? 100%, yeah, I definitely do. And it's been, it motivates you more too at the same time though, I'm assuming, 'cause I don't have children myself. Yeah, it's an extremely focusing force, I think, right? Because like, early days, like, I don't know, I was like a bit of a cowboy in that, yeah, not having dependents, could take risks, like, yeah, you know, like, yeah, worst case scenario, I'll just do this again, or

51:51I'll do something else or whatever. But, well, yeah, you're responsible for you, but you don't, now you're responsible for three other people. Yeah, exactly, and the eight people that, or 10 or 20 people that work for you as well, not to that degree, but yeah, no, I think there's a lot of truth to that. And it's changed, like I've noticed that I've changed a lot over the years, and maybe it's just like a bit of maturing, but you know, it's like getting married and having children,

52:19and then especially like when our second came, and I don't know why, but when we found out that it was a little girl, like, that even hit harder than like when we had our first kid, of just like, okay, like this is for real, like I can't let this slip, like this business needs to succeed, and like, you know, feeling that pressure kind of thing. Yeah, like I can no longer just like go back to like moving in with my parents or something, like I don't, I feel like

52:47we've kind of moved past that, and you know, just want to make sure that I'm always driving this thing in the right direction and doing the right thing. Yeah, but it's challenging for sure, like it does feel like a lot of weight. And yeah, we got 22 employees now, so it's like, wow, yeah, we've grown to the point that there's a lot of people that are benefiting from this business and love it and are doing an awesome job. Yeah, but just knowing, you know, when the

53:18solar coaster takes a dive, that just, yeah, that it could all change. It's definitely scary. But I think that we just got to keep focused on doing the right thing and making the right decisions, 'cause it's also funny too, 'cause like if you operate from a place of fear or stress or whatever, you might start making poor decisions. Absolutely. So it's like you're trying to always like recognize like, yeah, I get it, that's there, but if we just, you know, make small good decisions every day and keep moving

53:49in the right direction, and just don't quit, like I think that's the other side of it, yeah, it's just like, you can't quit, or sorry, you can't lose if you don't quit kind of thing, like you just got to keep going, like that's the name of the game. Yeah. Especially in the first, yeah, years, right, in the startup phase. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, that's interesting, and I think I asked the question because I think it's something that a lot of us deal with, both men

54:14and women, obviously we're men, so we're speaking from that perspective, and I think there's a lot of men out there that are in the same position. And I think we can, you know, I don't know, we all don't know what the answers are to deal with that stress and that pressure in the best way, but at least we can openly talk about it and figure out like, totally, maybe I could be handling this a little different, maybe it's not all as up to me as I think it is

54:37sometimes. You know, like I think one of the biggest things about being in the position you're in, or being in any leadership position, whether it's business or a sports team or whatever, like, just having the right people around you, you know. And part of the thing is like, let's say you're a recruiter for, you know, a scout for the NHL, or you're somebody in business development, like you want to put people in the position that are really good in that position, right? Obviously. And you

55:06know, they should really be telling you what to do almost, whereas a lot of people don't see it that way who are on the employee side, where it's living paycheck to paycheck, not that's any better or worse, yeah, but that's just how they kind of look at it, oh, he owns the business. So what does that really mean though? I mean, right? Like, because if you put someone in a position that's too much for them, that's your, that's really your fault, right?

55:29Totally. And then all of a sudden they're super stressed and they're in over their head, and it's like being a scout and putting someone up to the major leagues a couple years early and you just ruin their career, right, type of thing, right? Totally. But it's like, it's hard to find people, there's a labor shortage, it's hard to find the right people. But then to have the skill, which I think it is a skill, to put the right people in the right places, where sometimes people think like, what's that

55:52guy even do, he just owns the business, he just drives around in a truck and. But really, like good ones, they make it look easy because they have such good vision and they're so good with intuition with people, and they know their process and everything, and so they're always looking at, they're looking ahead and they're putting the right people in the right places, and they're carrying the vision forward, and they're working out, totally, outside their business, right, just on it. Yeah. And I just think that's

56:15an interesting thing to think about, because sometimes we go and we don't really think, what's it mean to be an owner, what's it mean to be a project coordinator, a PM, like what is the job profile? Totally. Yeah, no, I think it's true. And I, yeah, what you said there really resonated. I think that there's a real importance to like, find your tribe kind of thing. Yeah. Like, I'll give a shout out to EO Atlantic, Entrepreneurs' Organization Atlantic. I know that you've had a few guests on that are part of

56:43that organization, but you know, for me it's been amazing, just because like you get to surround yourself with other business owners, other entrepreneurs, and so like they're ones that actually can relate to the stress that you have. So that's been a lifesaver, like I can say with some level of assurity that I probably wouldn't still be doing this, running this business, like I probably would have quit, like we had a couple bad years a few years ago, or one bad year anyway, one exceptionally bad year, and

57:14that probably would have been curtains for me if it wasn't the support that I had from those folks. So I think it's just like, it's so crucial, because yeah, like, you know, there's a lot of us out here that are trying to make a go of it, like we're doing this crazy thing of starting a business, and I think that, you know, folks who don't do that or haven't done that before, it is really hard to understand like the level of stress that comes with it. Like it's easy to see

57:39like the, oh, like, you know, you're doing well, or like you get to own all this and all that, but the other side of it is all the stress and all the risk that you take on and everything else. So I think finding your tribe and just like, yeah, being around other folks that can relate to what you're talking about, 'cause you know, I got buddies who are teachers or whatever, and like it's just not the same kind of thing, like we can't, obviously there, there's lots of common

58:05ground, but like when it comes to work stuff, it's just like, man, it's so different, you know, so different. Yeah. Yeah, summer off and all that stuff, I was just going to say that. Yeah, teachers have it pretty good. Yeah, I'm sure teachers, if there's any teachers listening, they'd be like, yeah, I try and do what I, deal with nine-year-old kids right, oh, I could not do. Yeah. And I think that's important to recognize too, it's like, yeah, this is what I chose, and I can't imagine doing anything else anyway, like,

58:31yeah, this is the hard that I chose. That's where the passion comes in too, and the real love for it, then, you know, at the end of the day you're going to have those hard years and those hard times, and if you don't really love it, it's pretty hard to, exactly, to get through those years, right? It's probably not going to happen. Totally. Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I think that's it, is you just got to keep going. Yeah. Well, listen, John, it's been a great conversation, just want

58:56to be respectful of time. And is there anything else you want to mention, maybe that we didn't talk about, just to kind of shout out there on behalf of Solar Ascent, or anything, you know, to the industry or people listening that you'd like to mention, maybe that we didn't talk about? It's hard when you're on the spot, but yeah, totally. I think we touched on most things. Yeah, I'm super grateful to be sitting here and talking about my story and really proud of what we're

59:22building and what's been built so far with this company. And yeah, just, I'm proud of the industry too, you know, like we've, it's really come a long way, so it's cool to see all the different companies popping up, and there's a lot of them that are doing great work. So that's really cool to see. We never talked about batteries or storage, and that's something that always comes up with the, let's talk about, conversations. So yeah, I guess I just

59:48wanted to chat a little bit about this, just because it's such a massive topic, because we get questions all the time about like adding batteries to their systems or whatever. And I guess like a common kind of misconception with solar energy is people sometimes think that there needs to be batteries involved to make it work. But with net metering, so that's like just back feeding energy directly to your, essentially your electrical panel, and then feeding that source and then spinning your meter backwards when

60:19you're exporting power to the grid, there's no real requirement for batteries. And because batteries are pretty expensive still. But we are, it's a pretty cool time where like that technology, just because like, you know, I think largely like because electric vehicles are becoming so popular, more and more money is getting invested in battery technology, that we're starting to see cost come down and more battery adoption. So right, it's the same similar battery technology on solar that it is for these electric vehicles? Yeah,

60:52exactly, like it might be a different chemistry, but I think in general like there's just more research and development happening in energy storage through batteries. So we're seeing some commercial adoption of battery systems, as well as residential now. Because we have like this awesome net metering program where, you know, if you produce a kilowatt hour on your roof, you get to send it out to the grid for like a one-for-one exchange kind of thing, there's no real benefit to having a battery that's like

61:22constantly charging and discharging to like try and make money with kind of thing, like that doesn't make sense in Nova Scotia. But where it does make sense for residential customers is you can have a backup if the grid goes down. So if the grid goes down, you can auto-transfer over to your battery and you got yourself a little off-grid setup. So is that an issue for those solar elements on buildings, residential or commercial, that don't have a battery element? No, like, I mean, yeah, I guess

61:49like if you had a residential system with no battery, then if the grid goes down, you don't get any benefit from that solar energy system. So that's why you would adopt a battery now. Like compared to a generator it's still like far more expensive, but we're going to, I think we're going to see that the battery cost continue to come down. So if you are adopting solar, that could be something in the future that you could tie in, so that, you know, for, because

62:12we're hearing more and more about resiliency being important for people. So just like having that resiliency of like, yeah, if the power goes out, I want to make sure that I've got a plan. So that's been really cool, and there's been some big developments in the technology that's currently available. And then also on the commercial side, we're seeing people adopt batteries for peak load shaving. So like if you have a high demand, you can get hit with like big demand charges in the

62:39commercial side of it. So with batteries you can program them so that it does lessen the demand, like when your demand goes above a certain threshold, the battery can kick in to try and keep your demand load down. So there's some benefits there too. So that's interesting. Yeah, it's an interesting technology, and it's still kind of in its early stages. Like, you know, right now you're paying like early adopter prices for a lot of these things, but I think through incentives and then just again maturation of the technology, we're

63:08going to see more and more adoption of that over the years too. Yeah. I was thinking like, is there anything like when it comes to the East Coast, and like maybe it's more of a unique climate than, sometimes you know the building code even would, like, just because we have, we're, you know, we're so far away from being landlocked, there's so much moisture in the air, and there's a lot of high winds, and there's a lot of different elements in the environment that are unique, I think, as

63:37compared to a lot of other places, as far as solar. Like would there be anything people would be surprised to hear, is like, what actually affects it, or like what would, would solar panels basically be functioning the same in any climate, any place, any, does that really factor in at all? Or the East Coast just another place, and solar works as good here as it works anywhere else? Like, yeah, no, it's an interesting question, and there's like a few different kind of layers

64:05to it. Like we've gotten, the reason why Nova Scotia has really been popular for solar is for a few different reasons, like one of them is that we just have like good general year-round like solar production, so that's one of them. And then two is obviously like we pay a lot of money for grid power, so like if you can offset with solar then, you know, the payback looks better, whereas if you're living somewhere where power's really cheap, then it's a harder case. But then when you look at where

64:34solar is adopted in other parts of the world, like if you get into like more arid environments, like desert kind of areas, you got to do a lot more to clean them. We don't have to do that here, like really the rain takes care of that for us. And then the other thing that's kind of interesting about the technology is that it doesn't actually perform super well once it gets above a certain temperature threshold, like, it can be too hot, exactly, like as it gets

64:58hotter and hotter, it's like, yeah, it's like if you're right on the equator. We don't really have that here, we do not have to worry about that. Yeah, we're certainly not going to have to worry about it the next few months. Yeah, yeah, exactly. So like cool temperatures, decent sun, high power rates, like, you know, yeah, we're just as good here as they are in many other parts of the world. And then the cleaning thing, yeah, just letting the rain do the cleaning, that's a question that we often get, but like,

65:21no, you don't really have to do anything, like once it's installed, you know, provided it's been installed properly and protect it with like rodent guard, we install, make sure like no birds get underneath or whatever, but by the time we walk away, like you shouldn't have to touch that thing, you just let it do its thing, you get to watch the production on your monitoring app. Yeah. And then if there, apps, probably people can download those apps on their phone, just again, for heat pumps and different things, right?

65:46Yeah, you keep an eye on it and just make sure everything's operating as it should, and you just don't have to touch it, you just let it do its thing and watch your power bills kind of decrease. So yeah, that's cool. Yeah, right on. Well, thanks again, John. No, it's been great, man. We'll have to have you back at some point, but yeah, just thanks for coming on, it's been great. Of course, yeah, no, thanks a lot for having me. Cheers.