From ICU Nurse to Healthcare Architect: How Buildings Heal (or Harm) — Sarah Proder, Architecture49

0:00We are excited to be announcing our newest presenter sponsor, Pazant Building Products. Pazant Building Products has been providing contractors and builders with the supplies necessary to complete their jobs since 1964. They've built a reputation on honest, helpful, and quality service, serving the HRM for the last 58 years — now with seven locations in the HRM and one in New Brunswick. We look forward to having Pazant Building Products on the podcast in the near future. Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Today we're really excited to have Sarah Proder.

0:38From Architecture49. Sarah's the Atlantic Healthcare Sector Lead with Architecture49 here in Halifax, and we're grateful to have you with us today. Yeah, thanks for having me. This is —

0:57I think it's really neat. A little — the back story on your career, how it developed from being in the nursing field, in that industry for several years on the front lines as a healthcare worker, and now you find yourself as a Healthcare Sector Lead with an architecture firm. And maybe we could start there and just talk a little bit about, as we usually do with our guests, a little bit about their journey in the industry and maybe touch on —

1:31How that came about, from nursing to architecture. Sure. So I went into nursing right out of high school. I didn't think I wanted to be an engineer, but in retrospect I should have probably done that — that would have been more relevant to where I am now. I think a lot of women do pick nursing when — it's kind of like, I had first aid, I had the requirement, I was like, okay, right, yeah. And I didn't really know what to do, you know, and I was like, well —

1:59And I probably would have done like a sociology degree or something — I didn't know, I was 17. So yeah, I went into nursing, and in the first couple years I thought, well, in the first year I was like, I don't know if this is for me. My mom's a nurse, we have a bunch of nurses in the family, and when she heard I applied — I don't think I told her — and I think on my application I actually wrote like, I don't want to go into nursing just to —

2:19Date a doctor. So nobody proofread that, which might be the motive for 50% — well, I don't know. At 17 I was like, this is — I don't know, maybe a thing. So yeah, I got in, and then one day in class I was talking to a friend and she was like, do you want to — I want to go to Australia next year, like should we take a year off? And I was like, yes. And we went up to like the dean's office in the break of the class and we're like, we're —

2:45Taking a year off. And in nursing you're not allowed to take time off — they really want you to push through. You can only take five years to do a four-year degree, or I don't know, they make you start over or something. But yeah, so I went away for a year, and before I went away I worked three minimum-wage jobs and I realized how hard it would be to not have an education and to work minimum wage and to actually afford things and pay for things.

3:12This is an aside — I worked at a fake plant store, like a silk plant store. And it was in my dad's office building. And I don't know, I just got this weird job, and in there was a lady who was about 60 and she had worked there for a while and she was making the same as me. And she had a van that was broken down and a husband who was off on disability and she was making $7.25 an hour. And this —

3:36Was a while ago. And I thought, oh my god, my dad planted this person here so that I would go back to school, because he was like, this is the option. Yeah, and I was like, oh wow, that sounds really hard, I don't want to do that. So I went traveling for a year. Came back, finished nursing — still got the best grades of my life in the second year. But no one regrets traveling. No, it was amazing. Yeah, I went to New Zealand and —

4:04Bought a $200 car and drove around, and got given a tent — it smelled like cat pee and it was great. It gets you from point A to point B. Yeah, and you learn a lot of things too. You see the world and you see how other people live and you see how other systems are in place and things kind of work out and things are better and things are different. And so you kind of appreciate where you're from and the amazing things the world has to offer.

4:30Yeah, and I came back and then third year I was like, oh, I don't know about this. But then there was an opportunity to go to Africa for fourth year — for the fourth-year final practicum — and I really wanted to do that, so I stuck with it. Went to Africa for my final practicum and that was amazing. Had a really good time. Worked in an ER that smelled like — you're like, oh yeah, why wouldn't it smell like blood, everybody's bleeding — everything that —

4:56Didn't bother you? No, not really. And I worked with an orthopedic surgeon doing casting — kind of into crafts — and I was like, this is cool, I want to do casting and things. And it's a cash-and-carry system, so somebody would come in — like a kid came in with a broken femur that had been broken for a month, which would be super painful — but the community had to fund enough money for this kid to come in and get a cast. They take an X-ray, you pay —

5:22For the X-ray and then they give you a list and you have to go buy all the supplies to make the cast, to come back. And I was like, wow, this is so different. So the community rallied for those kids? Yeah, and it was really beautiful to see. We have healthcare problems here, yeah, right. Everybody needs to go traveling and see — yeah, what people around the world are dealing with and what people around the world have overcome. And this amazing sense of community and —

5:50Like working together, generosity, and understanding that all humans are going through challenges and difficulties in their lives. And you never know what somebody's going to bring to the table. And if they're having an off day it's probably not you — it's probably something that happened before. And to have that kind of understanding and empathy is super important and has been like — yeah, it's true. It's true what you said too. Like, I go through that all the time — days will happen and I'm like, yeah, those five things that happened today that —

6:18Really bothered me, that text or this person's interaction — it's like they're just having a bad day. Yeah, and here I am an hour later thinking, I wonder what — was it something I said? I think we all do that. Yeah, yeah. And it's hard. And so yeah, in architecture or something, somebody has a bad day, sends you a weird email, and yeah, you can't take it to heart — you just kind of have to follow up and ask them like, hey, what's going on — and —

6:40Usually you just need to pick up the phone and call them and say like, okay, we need to figure this out. And the nice thing about architecture as opposed to nursing is like, these are all fixable things — nobody is dying in architecture, and if they are it's usually structural's fault, like — you know. Yeah, seriously, it's like, this whole thing fell over, I didn't stand for it. No, it's an interesting point though. I mean, there's so much with government —

7:09Dollars or private funding or major complex projects, but yeah, it's not like nursing where somebody's life is always in the balance — like it is life and death. And that's why — yeah. And nursing was amazing, like I really liked the job. Throughout that, I kind of — I came back from traveling and then I worked in a restaurant because I was like, I don't want to be a nurse. And then I was like, well yeah, this sucks. So I —

7:37Went back and was a community health nurse. And then I also got into the NICU, so worked in the neonatal intensive care unit, which is very intense — there's a reason why that word is in there. And I saw people go off on disability all the time and have workplace injuries — your co-workers, yeah? And co-workers, yeah. And the rate of injury for nurses is higher than for construction. Yeah, I was reading that in one of the articles from the A49 communications — People Focus magazine — and —

8:11Yeah, I thought that was a really interesting fact, you know, because construction is a tough industry to be in, especially on the site. Yeah, there's big machines, there's a lot of risk, and safety is obviously the number one priority for everyone. But just to hear that stat kind of made me realize — the front-line workers have gotten a lot of attention, as they should, especially the last few years. Obviously we don't have to talk about COVID, but —

8:36You know, they have gotten a lot of credit that they deserve. But maybe prior to that, and just that fact alone kind of makes you realize, that's a tough — it's a tough job. Mentally, especially? Oh yeah. Or no, maybe physically too, but it's everything — it's mental, physical, emotional, spiritually challenging. And there's no other jobs that do that. You know, like I'm not spiritually challenged at architecture — or not daily, right? At least, right? Yeah. And you are trying to give a little soul to the —

9:06Bible? Well, yeah, yeah. But I'm not like conflicted, you know? Yeah, yeah. No, for life and death, right. So there's got to be a spiritual element, psychological elements, yeah, social — it's yeah, it's really, really challenging and physically demanding. And so I would look at environments that we were all in and I would say, all these repetitive strain injuries — the shelves are too high to reach, everybody's got shoulder, back, neck things. And working in the NICU is just with little babies, so that wasn't as —

9:38Hard, because they're lighter — small diapers as opposed to big diapers. But I remember as a student having to roll over a 400-pound patient and them looking at me being like, yeah, right, this isn't gonna work. And I was like, there's no option — we have to roll you over, because you can't just lie there all day. Other things are gonna — your back's gonna hurt, bedsores, these kinds of things. So we just made it work. But as I'm like pulling on —

10:00This sheet and they're pulling from the other side, it's like, this is how it happens. So yeah, there are statistics like — if you work for seven years as a nurse you'll have at least one lifetime disability, which is insane. Because it qualifies as a lifetime disability — something like repetitive strain injury. Yeah, like I needed orthotics in my shoes when I was 22 years old because I stood on concrete floors for 12 hours a day. And that wasn't included in our —

10:31Benefits package. So it was like out of pocket $500 for shoes, because my job directly — like I'd get out of bed in the morning and my feet would just be so — and so there's all these things. And then people — I would see staff members and colleagues go off sick, and because of union rules you can't replace a staff member. So you can bring someone in casual so they keep their positions for when they come back, but then those casual employees don't —

11:01Get the benefits of being a full-time staff member, so they don't get seniority for holidays or these types of things. And then it's oftentimes new grads who come in as casual because they're trying to get in and trying to make money and pay off their loans. And then they work tons and tons of overtime and they get stressed out and burned out and they leave. So there's this negative cycle of healthcare workers. And if you're not healthy, you can't provide health — that is just —

11:27That just makes sense. And so I think yeah, and it just seems — take care of yourself first. Yeah, and like we just needed anti-fatigue mats. I was like, well, they have them at Superstore. Can I just get one of those? So why do the floors have to be concrete? Can they be designed differently? And it was a shelled space that was created into an ICU — I think they've since redeveloped. So there's no windows — I had no idea. Shifts are seven to —

11:51Seven, or seven to seven. So you get out of work and you're like, is it daytime? Is it nighttime? Like I remember driving home at seven in the morning and ending up in my parents' driveway — my sister lived at home — and having no idea how I got there. I was like, this is dangerous. And working night shifts just takes years off your life. So I was kind of thinking — I've always been interested in how environments affect health and looking at different aspects of that.

12:18So it's not necessarily — it's materials, it's acoustics, it's lighting, which is huge. And all these things. And now there's more research about noise in hospitals — all the beeping and the humming and the HVAC and all that stuff. And they can actually test stress levels in patients. Like if you're trying to sleep and trying to get well and you're lying in a bed and there is a glowing thing next to you that is beeping every — the frequency, the noise aside from that, from something else — yeah, and you hear —

12:48The noise across the hall — yeah, someone's beeping, we can't find it — really, it's stressful. So those environments are extremely stressful, for the patients, for the staff, for all these things. And so we need to somehow curb that, because stress doesn't equal health. Like if you're stressed out, your body can't respond, your body can't heal, and your body can't relax and give itself the things that it needs and the time that it needs to actually recuperate from anything. Yeah, it's such a cool —

13:21Contrast that you have — I have no experience in the nursing field, but just now that you're talking about the high stress and the pace and the way that it's life and death and it's a different kind of environment. But construction's a lot like that — it's very high stress, very high pace, lots of different players involved, very complex, hard-driven, lots of money at stake, things need to get done in a very, very —

13:55Autonomous manner. And so before we get more into some technical things and design and architecture within the healthcare field, and just how you've taken your experience in nursing to help design these projects to be more in line with the ergonomics and the individuals and what it's like to actually work there — which you've been there yourself — were you thinking that while you were a nurse? Or like, after four years of nursing, did you kind of —

14:27Make a transition? Was that the thought right away, or did you just kind of stumble your way toward architecture? Was it more of a conscious — no, it's not a pivot, it's a completely different field. No, I didn't know. I'm the first of four kids, they were just like, just go to school, I don't care what you do, just get out of the house. Yeah. Because you worked with someone on the premise that you wanted to —

14:53Improve on the workplace environment, yeah — who was an architect? Was he from — where's he from? In Edmonton? No, he's in Edmonton. And so Ron Wickman specializes in accessibility and visitability. His dad Percy Wickman was actually — he was an MLA in Edmonton who was — yeah, I know, right? And he was in a wheelchair because he got into a train accident, and so he was a huge advocate for accessibility, like 50 years ago. So he was one of the first people to say, like, this is a big deal —

15:27And I can't get in. And he was very well-spoken, he was very smart. And so he was like, I can't get in to the same meeting that you're in — how do you expect anybody else to? It's an issue because of the barriers. The barriers, yeah. And even walking around with a stroller or any kind of mobility aid, and especially in Halifax — all these 200-year-old buildings all have steps, big granite steps that nobody can get into. It's really, really important. And so I —

15:55Started working with him. It must be a pain for you to walk around downtown Halifax — just like all the things you're thinking in the back of your head, depending on who designed the building of course. Yeah, right. And they're like, oh, there's a ramp by the loading bay near the garbage. Okay, I really feel like an included member of society. So yeah, it's not fair — I'm a big fairness advocate. So yeah, I was in the NICU and I was working — I was like, I need to take some —

16:20Other classes or do something. So I took a cabinet-making course — I'm almost a certified cabinet maker. Oh no, it's good for you! — which was fun. It's a great trade, it's not an easy one, very dialed in. Yeah, you have to work to a thirty-second of an inch instead of a quarter of an inch. Yeah, your cabinets do have to close, which is hard. But yeah, my dad has done a lot of construction and so he had a —

16:44Construction company and is quite a good woodworker. And my mom was a nurse, so I very much did both. I worked around table saws and things as a kid, which I should not have done, but he didn't know that I did it until I presented him with the Father's Day coasters, and he was like, where did these wood pieces come from? So I always really liked building stuff. And so I took that class, and then I took a disability management in the workplace —

17:14Because I was like, this sounds like what I want to do. But my teacher at the time — she was a nurse — and she was like, Sarah, you're not going to be able to change anything with this job. And I was like, what do you mean? And she was like, you're really overthinking it — this is just paperwork, you're just moving papers around. I was like, well, is that an architect you mean? Was that her advice? Yes, well, this was just a course —

17:39And she was like, this is a course for somebody who just — not able to change anything, I'm not changing any — and I was like, well I want to change stuff, this is not what I want to do. And then I took an interior design class, and my elementary school principal was in there too. And I was like, oh, hello — I was looking for a career change. So one of the projects was kind of like a junior-high project — interview someone —

18:02That you want to be when you grow up. So I called around to different interior firms and then to different architecture firms and kind of asked — I was like, I'm interested in barrier-free design and accessibility and how to work with kind of everyone, and how does this work in your firm? And they pointed me towards Ron Wickman, who specialized in that. So then I met up with him, and I remember phoning him and he was like, oh, we should meet up, why don't we have a lunch —

18:29Meeting. And as a nurse, we don't go to meetings — I've never been to a meeting in my life. That's a normal thing for you. Well yeah, in construction it's like, let's go for coffee or let's meet here. Yeah, and I was like, a meeting? That sounds so fancy. So we went for lunch and he was like, well, why don't you come in and help me do some research? And at the time he was looking towards writing a book —

18:50Or doing a PhD, and looking at some stuff. And as a nurse I mainly did research, so I was like, okay, I can definitely do that. So then I would go to the library and do things — and I'm kind of an artistic person, before nursing. So we came in and worked together for a bit. And he paid me — he was like, never work for free — and I was like, okay, good to know. And yeah, and he's like, what are you —

19:12Going to apply to architecture school? And I was like, I don't know, I didn't do that great in physics. He's like, you do not need physics, okay. And then I took a portfolio class because I didn't have anything to show — did all kinds of crazy things, did some sculptures, did some woodworking, did some painting, whatever. And yeah, I got into Dal. And he kind of gave me a rundown of the schools — he was like, Dal kind of takes some oddballs, like they kind of —

19:39Take a wide variety, a wide range of people. And kind of getting me to run down the schools — some focus mainly on academics, some are very fine arts-based, that kind of stuff. And so the application process leaves it really open to accept a lot of different backgrounds like yours — nursing, so healthcare, you've got these different courses and woodworking. So yeah, you got in? Got in! I was like, oh my gosh. So six years at Dal.

20:09I did — so it's a bachelor of environmental design, and that was two years, and then a two-year master's. Okay, right, so four years. Yeah. And what was that like as an experience at the Dalhousie architecture school? It's a really demanding program — 60, 70-hour weeks? Did you sleep there ever? At the building, yeah? Like, fell asleep? Yeah, I'd stay until the sun came up and then present a design and be like, here's my stuff, what day is it? Yeah, no —

20:44Idea. Yeah, walking around the city — so I used to live here and then I kind of came back and I was like, it's a different city when I'm awake and not just an architecture school zombie. But yeah, it was super fun and I loved it — they have a metal shop and a wood shop and it was really fun. We had a great class, and now years later we're starting — I just had a call today with an old classmate who's in Ottawa and we're looking to team up on a —

21:08Project. And so now we have this amazing network of people all over Canada that we know and trust and know their personalities. If you can get along with someone, you can figure out a problem. And so yeah, it was great — simple quote: if you can get along with someone, you can solve anything. In architecture, engineering — some things are like, oh yeah, that hole's too big, you know — they're all problems that are —

21:36Solvable. Cost and schedule aside, these are solvable problems, and there's a bunch of really smart people in the room that we can get together and throw ideas around and say like, okay, what do we do here? We discovered this big sinkhole — how do we deal with that? Or things come up that you just could never anticipate, like supply chain issues in a pandemic or what have you, that you just kind of have to roll with. Yeah, and if —

22:04You have a good team and open communication and good dialogue and that trust — like, I'm not trying to throw anybody under the bus, I'm not going to say like, oh, you said this and now it's your fault — that doesn't solve problems, that creates animosity amongst the team. And so yeah, I really like working with really good teams. I'm super open — as project manager and design team lead — and on the New Waterford Hub there's so many people involved, but —

22:31It's a really good team. Okay, we should talk about the New Waterford Hub, but before we do, how did you get from — after you graduated from Dal, did you move right into A49? No, no. So with Dal there are co-op work terms. My second work term was in Toronto, where I met my now husband. And we both live here now in Dartmouth — he came with me, he's very flexible, it's great — which —

23:01Is what you need. So yeah, I lived in Toronto and I worked for a functional planning and programming firm, one of the biggest ones in Canada — they do the most amount of healthcare — Agnew Peckham. And I worked there for six months, and then I met a bunch of people through that who kind of offered me jobs out west. And they're like, oh, you're a nurse and an architect? So that obviously was your focus right from the start — the healthcare sector — right, just from your —

23:27Background. And I was looking for a job and I was like, I don't know. At first I didn't think about it — there are a few of us around, and sometimes on LinkedIn we're like, hey buddy, yeah. But yeah, it is quite rare. And in school it was not super useful to be a nurse — like if I had a fine arts degree, that wouldn't work either. Would it have helped you get through school? No, but I did take —

23:51A few people to emerge if they cut their thumbs off doing X-Acto knives at four in the morning. And somebody would come like — my stomach hurts, I don't know — I was like, have you eaten anything? Yeah, we could use more nurses around construction sites these days. Yeah, yeah. So that helped. But I didn't know it was valuable at all — I didn't think it was a unique pairing. Nobody through school ever said you should do this. But I was always —

24:16Interested in, like, how do people get into the building? How do we make this accessible? How does everybody benefit from this architecture? How do we get people in here so that they can enjoy this beautiful space and they can get around and it's not cumbersome? And yeah, just for the enjoyment of the public — let's create crazy architecture school designs that would never stand up and no one would ever afford. But that's the fun part. And then so I got out and then yeah, a few people —

24:44Kind of offered me stuff out west, and I'm from Edmonton originally, so I ended up in Calgary at Stantec. What part of Edmonton? I'm from the west end. Okay, yeah — Rio Terrace. That's close to Whyte Avenue? No, no, that's the cool place. We lived where you could walk to school, kind of thing. But it's a great city and it's huge — it's gotten way bigger, and the river valley is really beautiful. And I lived there for a long time and —

25:11Didn't necessarily want to go back there right away. But Calgary is quite pretty — it's got the mountains and rivers and stuff. And so I worked for a firm there and I did a lot of work — I did some work in healthcare, I did some work on other things too. And then I didn't know at that point, do I want to pigeonhole myself — I didn't hold myself to healthcare. And as someone who had just gone through a career change as an —

25:37Architect, I don't know what I want to do, I just needed to pay off my loan. So I was like, okay, I gotta work on this. But then I found, once I kind of deviated from healthcare, I found that I'm passionate about healthcare — like I care about the people that are using it and I know what it's like to be in a building that sucks, with flickering lights and loud noises. And I know how it negatively affects people. So —

26:06I was like, I kind of care about this. And with architecture I think people are — everybody's very passionate, and architects are great and they all have different passions, and that's what makes them good at their jobs. And so why am I fighting this? Like passion is kind of your destiny. Yeah, like you were on an innate path but tried to push it away and it came back. So then I was working on a healthcare centre up north in Norman Wells, and it was a —

26:34Clinic and a long-term care. And I was doing a lot of the furniture and equipment planning, which is a very hard job. And I didn't really — yeah, I learned a lot about it with that project. But then I also got to experience the northern office — the office was in Yellowknife — and I really liked them. And I was thinking, maybe I can go up there for a couple of years and see — and they did everything, like from rink boards to the legislative building, just every kind of different —

27:03Project. And I was like, I want to go out there and really diversify my portfolio and see if I really want to do architecture, or if I want to do healthcare architecture, or if I want to do whatever — civic architecture, yeah — or just a random lift station. It does decide a couple of lift stations. They are so cute! So they were like, yes, come up, but we really need a wrangler in the Whitehorse office and we think you —

27:29Could do it. We need to pull this team together. And I was like, okay. And I was an intern at the time, because that process takes a long time. And so I worked on that project and I got to work on fire halls, rinks, lift stations — at one point we were like, we should do twelve and make a lift station calendar, like one a year. In Whitehorse? Yeah, and it was gorgeous up there, and every day going to work was amazing. And we had —

27:56Foxes on our front doorstep. And we went to a site visit in Atlin, which is this amazing little town — kind of on the BC border, but you can only get through it through the Yukon — and we went and did a conditions assessment and looked underneath. And I was like, what's the structure of the building? Does anybody know? And we went down in the basement and the guy with us took a rock and bashed a hole in the wall and was taking —

28:21Pictures of the structure, and I was like, this is fun! And then on the way back we saw a bear and then a herd of caribou, and I was like, this is the best day ever. This is pretty cool. Outstanding. And I was like, this is an amazing job. They're Canadian, mm-hmm. Yeah, and it's like real Canada — not just any city anywhere with all the same Best Buys and IKEAs. Yeah. My sister's partner actually works —

28:49For the Gord Downie Foundation, which is a cool job. But that's — Gord Downie, best lead singer? Yeah, yeah. Very Canadian. It's good. But yeah, then one day my friends who I went to school with — and we actually went to India together in architecture school, so we got to know each other really well because we got stuck in a flood and almost died, so that really brings your team together. That's the next podcast. But then they called and they're like, we're looking for —

29:17An architect. And I was like, well, I've done some but I've also done this other stuff, and it's kind of back and forth. And then we talked to them for a while, and then I got to meet Stacy and the team, and I was like, oh, these guys are great. I know — I know her husband Thane a little bit, and I've met Stacy a few times personally but also maybe professionally a couple of times too, and she's always been a great person, very giving of her time.

29:44Yeah, she can solve any problem — it's amazing — and it doesn't matter what it is. Yeah, and very fair and equal, and she can hear people out and really pull important things out of the conversation and summarize things. I was like, you're so good, I've never met anybody like that. She's amazing. Yeah, so that was a huge selling point. And I'd lived here before, so I kind of understood the city a bit, even though I was like walking around in just a zombieland.

30:11And we were kind of looking to move but we didn't quite know where. We had family all over but we had good friends here. So yeah, we made the trip — did it, three, three and a half years ago. Wow, here you are. And here we are! Yeah. Now I get to look over the harbour and be like, I can see my house. Yeah, I said earlier that you take the ferry every day home from Dartmouth. Yeah, yeah, I miss the ferry every day and then —

30:34Get on it. No, there it goes. It's a little over 15 minutes? Yeah, it's 12. They say it's every 12 minutes, but maybe — yeah, they're pretty keen on the timing, I think. Oh, it's great. Yeah, there's very little — sometimes a sea-doo — but yeah, so far it's been really good. And the team has been really good. And it kind of goes back to that — if you can work with someone and you understand them and you have good conversations and you're really open, you —

30:59Can solve anything. And so I knew I had that with Chris and Kat, who are other architects at the firm. And yeah, I knew that they would be honest about it. They're not trying to, you know — come in here, it's fun, and then it's just a total nightmare. Yeah, just a little bit of love bombing and then a honeymoon phase and then you realize — maybe this was obviously the opposite. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's great. And coming —

31:26From a larger national firm into a smaller national firm, it is really interesting to see the similarities and the differences. And I really like it there — it's a really good environment. There are a lot of good conversations that happen, people are really concerned about people's well-being and quality of life versus workload and stuff. There's a lot of conversations. So I don't see anybody crying under their desk or anything, which is — yeah, because A49 has a —

31:55Has a long history spanning over half a century. You know, obviously the office here in Atlantic Canada, but nationwide and beyond, right? Like yeah, they — and they kind of were a conglomerate of all these different firms throughout Canada under one brand, at one point or another. And they all have their focuses. And so it's really interesting to see those focuses and to be able to form those connections throughout Canada. So we have a really strong labs group in —

32:26And there are a few really good healthcare people there too. So we're like, let's team up and let's do things together, and let's grow this collective knowledge within A49 so that it's easier. And then everything went online with COVID, and so it made it easier to work together nationally in a sense, because we're so used to picking up the phone and just saying like, hey, I have a question about finishes for long-term care. Just to give our listeners some —

32:56Context — those that may not have any idea what it's like to be in architecture, even on that side of the arena of construction. Like if you read some of the taglines of A49 — you know, engineers, interior designers, landscape architects, urban planners — and what it means to be an architecture firm where you're permitting for some of these large municipal projects with government funding or —

33:25Via private. And landscape architects — a certain arena of that as well. There's even courses now — I think Dal has a landscape architecture specialization. Interior design is a totally different thing. And so when you say architecture, people think — A49 has just a vast amount of expertise. And you see yourself with the healthcare lead and how different that sector is. For people in construction, if you're on the contracting side, just to —

33:57Even price those large healthcare projects — it's kind of a different animal, you know, different with the materials and the spec and the logistics, and just a lot more in-depth, and obviously rightfully so with the complexity of the building itself. But yeah, just to give some context for maybe those that are listening and wondering what an architecture firm is or does. There's just such a frontier of different expertise. It is, yeah.

34:32Different expertise and different — yeah, we have people in the office that have a wide range of experience, and all those individual pieces kind of come together to create your prime design team. And so we work really closely with landscape, and landscape architecture is — I think now it is offered at Dal; when I went it wasn't. But it always seems super interesting and they have a really amazing take on things. And the healing garden in healthcare facilities is really —

35:07Important. And having that connection to nature is super important. Like looking out at a tree versus looking out at a brick wall — there are studies that people will use less pain medication, and they'll be more pleasant to staff, they'll get out of hospital three days sooner. Like, we've solved everything — just put a tree and a window to see it, and we could solve the whole world. It's funny, it made me think of something I've been doing a lot throughout the —

35:37Summer. Like if I'm having a stressful day and I've been working from home or through the summer, or in the office doing estimating or working on a tender or something, I'll go down to Point Pleasant Park, take my dog for a walk, and I'll just stop and touch the tree — just my hand touches something that's a feature of nature, not electronics or another screen. I'll just stand there for 20 seconds. I —

36:05Feel kind of weird, but that's just hugging trees, yeah. And there's so much research — yeah, and it releases serotonin. And biophilic design — because nature is not symmetrical and we try to make things all line up and have linear things, but that's not what a tree looks like. Right out the window there are all these crazy shapes and things and they move in the wind. And you can tell a lot by looking out your window at a tree. Yeah, you're like —

36:38What season is it? Is it nice outside? Is it raining? Like all these different things. And we're humans — we are animals, we're mammals, we're tall hairless mammals. And yeah, we need to be outside. Like being in dappled light sitting under a tree gives us a sense of protection, because we know that we're shaded, we know that we can climb up the tree if a big animal comes to get us. There are all these things that are inside every single one of us that —

37:05Need that holistic balance of nature. And our bodies need it — our eyes need to see it, our brains need to process it, we need to smell it. All those senses need to be stimulated. And when you go inside a hospital, you come into the ambulance bay, it smells like exhaust, you get wheeled through the door, and if you don't have a family member to take you outside, you could be in there for months. It's more like you're entering an assembly line. Well, and you —

37:31Don't breathe fresh air. A lot of hospitals can't — they don't have operable windows. But being able to provide — like, you could smell outside, you can see outside, and you can breathe fresh air — that would make such a huge difference in people's care. Right. So I'm thinking about some different hospitals that I've, you know, looked at the drawings for or kind of been around, or just personally visited — oftentimes there are not a lot of windows in a lot of the rooms, right, with the —

37:59Layout. I mean, there are windows and glazing on the entrance and things like that. Yeah, yeah. So is it mostly the cost, or is it because whatever's functional in the room — it depends. Sometimes it's glare or something. But I've designed an operating room with — yeah, it's a big piece of glass, it's expensive. And also depending on the direction it's facing it could let in a lot of light, but then you just fix that with some shading and that kind of thing, because it's still more —

38:28Important. Because the HVAC system really played a huge part in a lot of hospital and healthcare designs. Because if you have a lot of south-facing windows, you're going to — yeah, you just have to regulate your HVAC systems and they would need to be much more robust. So it's easier to make smaller windows and have less cost that way. But the hospitals of the past were kind of built with more to do with the systems and less to —

38:59Do with the people in them. So they were very much like an experiment in building systems. Yeah, because unless it's an atrium or a pedway, there's no glass, there's no glazing. So I think that is slowly changing. I mean, I've been advocating for holistic design for years. But I think people kind of get it now because of COVID, because a lot of people were isolated in their homes and they felt that sense of isolation. And that's the sense of isolation people feel in —

39:27Hospitals all the time. But if you've never been in a hospital and you've never felt that, you don't know how bad it is. Yeah, especially if you're there for a long stay. If you're there for a long stay and you're trying to get better and you can't, because you're stuck in this beige room with all the beeping and the noises and the bright lights at night — and no windows, or a window that looks into a wall and you can't see anything. And so you have no idea —

39:53You lose track of yourself, you lose track of the natural life cycle of seasons and trees and bugs and plants and birds. You're totally disconnected from the only thing that connects us, which is being outside in nature. And so yeah, my thesis was actually converting a cancer institute and putting these huge healing gardens inside and bringing all the therapies out into the gardens. And putting a daycare in there for staff, or for somebody who needs to come in and get chemo treatment — and —

40:25They're there for six hours a day — what do you do with your kids? So if you can drop them off and you know they're being taken care of, they're having fun, you can actually heal, because you're not stressed out. So removing those stresses from the environment — and it's not hard to get something off someone's shoulders. Yeah, just to know their kids are okay. I want a daycare at A49. We threatened it at COVID — we're like, we're going to turn Stacy's office —

40:51We're like, there are enough kids, we can all just bring them here, because they were all closed. So yeah, and some of the bigger firms — I think the Stantec office actually did get a daycare. And we advocated for that for years, because it's so much easier. And in long-term care I advocate for — we need a big space where you can bring in a farmer's market. Like as a nurse, if I could get off shift, buy fresh —

41:14Vegetables and get home, that would be amazing. It takes an extra step — it takes an extra stress away from, like, getting healthy food. Yeah, or picking up a chicken on the way home — that's fine, but it's another stop. This is easy. If you make it easier for people to be healthier, that's a win-win. Those lifestyle elements and just those everyday elements of the way people are living — you can incorporate them into —

41:46The design. Yeah, that's right. Maybe a lot of people might not even pick up on it right away, but they just think, oh, that's great, like I can pick that up on my way out. I think they might not — you know, maybe they don't give credit to the architecture firm, but it's almost like, I really like it here, I can't really put my finger on it, but this is a great spot. Yeah, I've stayed at my job for 15 years —

42:07And I have these fresh eggs. But yeah, it's not impossible things to do and it doesn't have to be expensive either. So I think that's the balance you have to strike. And I find things like over-medicalized, and now they're coming back a bit. But our medical system is very focused on treatment — you have to get sick enough to get treatment. And so the rest of our senses — social, physical, mental, emotional — all create this holistic person.

42:44And so if one part of that — the physical part — is needing medical attention, the rest of those systems still need attention. And that can be like a nice conversation — it can be like, oh, I don't have to worry about somebody trying to take care of my kids while I'm trying to get my cast off. Or all these little things that allow us to live our lives in a less stressful way. And stress has a huge impact on our health, like —

43:13Yeah, and now there are more studies coming out about it, which is great. But we all know that if I'm not stressed out, I'm having a great time. When I'm stressed out, it affects — it's not just the stressful event, like that email or I need to get this done — it ripples through. And so if you can figure out ways of decreasing that stress, ways that help people do their activities of daily life in an —

43:39Easier way, it just makes sense. And in architecture we can kind of do that, which is great — we just have to weave it into the design. Because nobody's going to pay me to put in a big green wall, which I want to do everywhere. It's really interesting, because we as humans are physical, social, psychological, and spiritual — kind of like four — yeah, it's like a lot of spaces and a lot of jobs. And it's hard — it takes a lot of effort to be whole.

44:14It takes — we're not always very good at that. And our system's not set up for that at all. There are people in these systems who are not always very good at treating the whole person — even in the medical field or counseling and psychological fields, you know, focusing on something from the past that might be traumatic. But they're not always treating the whole person — it could be something physical, but it could be the manifestation —

44:40Or manifestation of something that's going on in a totally different part of one of those other four categories. And then you're wondering, why am I not getting better? I've gone to physio for a year and I'm spending all kinds of money on treatment, and they do it for years and try this and the next best thing — and really the root problem is something else altogether. They're lonely. They just needed a dog. Yeah, they need to be outside more. They need a —

45:07Plant. Seriously. Yeah, there's reason to think about it that way. It is. And it's not impossible to do and it doesn't have to cost a lot. It's just treating humans as humans and understanding the fun things in life. There are books and research papers about this — they looked at long-term care and they had two households of residents. They gave one household — they gave everybody a plant. In that household the staff took care of the —

45:36Plant and watered it. And in the other household, it was up to the resident to take care of their plant. And they found that the people who took care of their plants were happier — they ate better, they slept better, they had less medication — like narcotics — because it kept them busy and they were seeing the progress. Like seeing it grow — oh yeah, yeah. It just gave them something to do and something that depended on them. As humans we go through our lives and people depend on us for stuff —

46:04And then we get older and those — and that feels good, as long as we have boundaries and we're not — yeah, yeah. And it's just a plant — it's like $3.99, you can get it at Superstore. And it's the same for having animals come in — therapy dogs and cats. And we had a bird — my nana had a bird in her long-term care. And she was kind of anti-social — she had lived on —

46:29Her own for a very long time, and she was like, I don't want to talk about bingo, I don't like it. But she would go and talk to the bird. And this little songbird sat in the corner and she would hang out with the bird, and it was great — it gave her something to do. The bird recognized her, which is huge — you know, how many people got dogs who didn't own dogs during lockdown? Yeah, and it's that companionship and that dependency and that sense of —

46:58Worth. And that's all we need. We don't need super fancy finishes — I don't need to feel marble. That doesn't — I mean, it's nice and it's cool aesthetically, yeah. But it doesn't depend on me for food. Right. It's interesting to see the depth of the thought process that goes into the design, because from construction — I can only draw from my experience as a former contractor, you know, estimating and things — just —

47:30Worried about the materials and how much they cost, you know, what's the labour allowance, what's this going to be like to install, what's the transition to the next scope. But there's so much — and like, feeling natural wood is important for us. We recognize this feeling. Every second restaurant you go into has live edge, some kind of natural countertop. And yeah, it's tricky to do in healthcare. And we did really interesting research on it — why is it harder in healthcare? Just because —

48:00Of the fibrous — yeah, and the lacquer and things like that. And traditionally they would put it in a horizontal surface. So if you're trying to clean it, you would get cleaners pooling on it, and that would degrade the lacquer and the finish, and then it would create openings to it, and that could harbour — that's a big thing in healthcare, how cleanable is the surface? Oh yeah, the ratings are like — 500,000 wipes? So I need to be able to —

48:28Clean this with the harshest chemicals. On stainless steel everything's solid surface. But the interesting thing was with COVID — this was a National Geographic article that I read — with COVID, because of the way it's encapsulated, when it landed on a natural surface like a wood surface it would actually absorb that outer shell, so it would decrease transmission. A natural surface — like cardboard, paper, wood — as opposed to stainless steel or solid surface, where it would sit on there for days.

49:03So it was kind of the opposite. Like everything we knew about disease transmission and viruses and cleanliness was kind of thrown out the window, just because of the nature of the virus. Which is really, really interesting. And so yeah, typically we do vertical surfaces in wood because then you don't get that pooling, it's still wipeable, but you're not going to wipe your walls as much as you would wipe a table or your arms. That kind of thing. You see a lot of —

49:30Wood slat walls, yeah, fabric-backed or something. Yeah, and that just adds warmth to it. And that would be something you would have in your house — you would have wood cabinets, wooden furniture, that kind of thing. But yeah, we just keep it vertical. And so it's super important for the daily lives of the people that live there. So it's not just that we like wood — architects are like, I want the fanciest wood. You're like, no, we —

49:56This is there for a reason. It's not just because we want to make your life hard by putting up these equally spaced slots. It's for acoustics, it's for touch, it's for feel — it stimulates all those senses that release serotonin and make people happier. Right. Yeah, no, that's really interesting — all the depth that goes into design features like that. Because I think on the construction end, you're probably not thinking about those things. Yeah. Oh, that's going to help the —

50:26Stress levels of the employees with the serotonin. You know, that's it. Oh, it's just a good aesthetic feature and it looks great. And a lot of people are passionate about wood and different things. But I was reading something about one of the — I'm not sure if this was something that you worked on personally, but it was a situation where there was food prep — obviously a big thing in the kitchen areas and stuff — and I think something about live game —

50:58Yeah, and different entrances — next to it, for a certain type of food to enter, and then different storage. I thought that was pretty interesting. Was that in Nikala? Yeah, I was up in — Iqaluit, yeah. So just as a segue — what are some concrete examples? Maybe we could talk about the New Waterford Hub or the Ramsay Bay long-term care campus, some of the local projects that you're working on for Architecture49. And maybe just give some examples of —

51:31What that's like to be part of the New Waterford Hub and working with the team as the designer and then having meetings —

51:46With everyone who are part of this project — you've all rallied together — and incorporating their thoughts into the design. And where do you get kind of pigeonholed? And just to give some context of how much of it is financial in the decision-making — I mean, money's always the bottom line it seems, but it is. But yeah, just take us through that, and then maybe some unique examples of how you're using your experience as a former nurse for little layout things or certain —

52:19Types of materials on that project, or past examples. That was kind of long-winded, but yeah. I will choose one thing about it. Yeah, the New Waterford Hub is a truly amazing project. I think it will be a really good example of how — there are going to be a lot of lessons learned from it. Because I think a facility like a community hub like that would be so beneficial to many, many communities throughout Canada and through the States —

52:52And stuff too. So it's got a Grade 6 to 12 high school, it's got a community — it's got a 60-bed long-term care and a health centre. And my favourite — it's got a food bank. And a community garden. Those are my two favourites — they're small compared to the rest of it, but they make it so that people — those barriers to accessing healthcare are removed. Because you can go into that building for any host of reasons, so you're not going to the psychiatrist who —

53:28Is on this door and everybody in town knows where they are and what you're doing and knows your business. You can go into this building that has all of these things. Oh, it also has a 500-person — a what, sorry? A theatre — it's for the high school, but the community will be able to use it. And it's kind of in the first stage — plays? Yeah, okay. So for music, yeah? There'll be a big stage, and so it'll be used publicly — yeah.

53:55Yeah, so they can have big musical events and things come in. And that's gotta be Matt Anderson? Okay, yeah! That's gotta be neat to be part of designing. Yeah, yeah. You know the theatre — it's like an amphitheatre kind of layout. It's got a telescopic arrangement, and then the stage is up so that you can put chairs and stuff underneath it. And Katherine Heffler, who's our school expert and designer, she's kind of been spearheading all the school stuff —

54:23Because she knows all the rules for that. But they have amazing programs — there's someone who is really interested and has a lot of experience in sound technology, and so he's bringing in all the stuff that a high school would never have, and teaching kids about putting together a podcast or all of the different things that a school wouldn't normally have. But we're creating a sound booth for him that fits all this amazing equipment. So there are a lot of really unique —

54:54People in the community that have really interesting parts of this — and that just layers on the complexities of the project and weaves that fabric through the project. So I always thought it was really great that the kids from the high school could go and get work-term experience or high school volunteering in the senior centre or the health centre. Or a kid from high school who is looking out for their family — there are lots of those in —

55:24That area — they could go after school and pick up stuff from the food bank and go home and have dinner. You don't have to make an extra trip, you don't take the bus anywhere, it's just right there. The community centre is really amazing — there's a public shower there. And so if somebody's trying to get back on their feet and they're going for a job interview, they can go and have a shower, which is really hard to find when you're — how are you going to get a job if —

55:51You don't look presentable? And so there are all these really amazing — actually a really good feature for the homeless. Yeah, is there anything like that in the HRM area downtown? I don't know — I see a lot of homeless people from where I live, I walk by the same ones. Some of them could use a shower — it would be nice to have that. You'd feel better, right? And yeah, and there's — I'm not too sure, I think the public library — I don't —

56:22Know if there's a shower, but there is a washroom there that people shower in, which is fair — I would too. It's like a clean, safe place. Yeah, yeah. And that's what a lot of people need. So I think there's a big push for this to be like an integrated hub, and I really think it will be. People will be more comfortable being able to get in and access services that they couldn't get to before. So there's going to be a —

56:48Few different clinics within it — there's going to be some primary care, some mental health — there are a few other things. It's like — it's not an emergency, but it's kind of like a drop-in, kind of emergency. And yeah, it's really neat, it's everything. That must be quite unique as far as the things you've been able to be part of in the last four years here in your position. Oh yeah, and across Canada, like as architects we're like, this is what needs —

57:19To happen — all these things come together. So you're like — all your education, and then the long-term care people can actually be part of the community, so they are not sitting on top of a hill on a site that was donated because it was cheap, by themselves, looking out over the ocean — which is lovely. So will they interact? Well, it depends — like, could they go down to the theatre? Wouldn't that be great? Or to be able to go and see a Christmas play and not —

57:48Actually have to go outside? And to be able to go — like, to see my grandmother in a place like that, and go to a doctor's appointment easily. So you can get to it. So it's all these things that are being broken down. And then they can watch the kids come and go from school, watch the buses. Oh, and then there's a sports field across the street — they could watch a sports game. And there's glazing on this one too? There is, yeah — and operable windows —

58:09So that people can feel the ocean breeze coming through. It's really important. And so they can go down to the community gardens — we have a really wonderful partner who needed a new space for the community gardens, so she's bringing over some greenhouses. And we've left a space on site that is southwest-facing, and people can come and learn how to garden. There's horticultural therapy. The school kids can have plots, they can do things with that. And then it's right —

58:39Next to the food bank. So imagine getting fresh fruit or fresh veggies in your food bank order — it's not just dried macaroni and tuna. So it's all these things coming together that are so beautiful and wonderful. What phase is the project at now? We are at — so the school had to come first. So we're building the new Breton Education Centre, the foundations are poured, next to the existing — next to the existing '60s building, yes — and the existing facilities. So once the new high school is built —

59:13Then the second phase of the project is demolition of the existing school, clean-up of that site, and then that's where the health centre and long-term care are going to go. So there is a bridge that goes over the top, and it sits on the community wellness centre. So there is that connection, in a big interior. And yeah, it's going to be so great — I'm really excited. Fascinating. So I think it'll help the community kind of come together and share resources too. Potentially —

59:48There are operations and maintenance costs — you could have one team that would do everything. And there are all these synergies that kind of come up. And it's been interesting to work with the board of education and the health board, because they've never had to work in tandem — yeah, because the health portion and the school portion have never come together. So they kind of exist in silos, but everybody believes in this project and everybody is really trying their best. And it's the first one —

60:16So nobody has a real sense of — excited, yeah — how much it's going to provide that hub for the community. And so far we've had really great engagement sessions with the community and very positive feedback. Is that process a lot different for you personally and for Architecture49, working in the healthcare sector, to work on with the health and design team lead? So I kind of get to see all of it. So we have —

60:45Double consultants on everything. And so it's this huge team kind of working together. And then I also get to work with the education lead, and I've never designed a school, so now I get to see how that goes together. And the schools in Nova Scotia are built to a DC 350 standard — and the system set up for approvals and what they like and what they don't like — it's so great, they're doing a great job, they've done their research, they're like —

61:15It's a really amazing system, and to see how that works so well — I think it could really translate into other sectors that I would never get to see both of those things at the same time. Right. So yeah, there are definitely some positives from both sides of it. And then having to work with double consultants on everything — so we're like, okay, there's one part of the building that everybody is involved in — and we're like, this is the pivotal moment —

61:45And we have so many talks about the stairs, but everybody is working together. And so it's interesting because there are two structural teams and two mechanical teams, but they're also learning from each other — how do you do this? How do you do this? Oh, this is the detail you use, and we would use this. And so it's like this huge team effort to put this together, and it just builds that understanding and respect and appreciation for everybody's skill set and everybody's knowledge. So it's really —

62:15Cool that way. And then the government side — Ennis Lands is doing an amazing job. Yeah, this is a tender from NS Procurement, yeah. And they're really passionate about it. And it's also a new kind of building typology for them. And then the board of education and the NSHA — the health side — they're really great, and they get to meet each other and see how each other work and see how these systems can help —

62:45Each other and feed off each other and kind of grow together. It's super interesting. Is that a big part of your job as the lead at A49 — answering those RFIs throughout the couple months of the tender process? Yeah, on behalf of the government procurement. Okay, so that's a big thing, because you're just probably answering question after question. So many questions — yeah. And so many hard questions. Oh yeah, I'm sure. I can't imagine. And evaluating alternates and making sure they comply. And yeah, I have a team —

63:15Right now at the office that is working on it right now — yeah, because it's one thing if you're involved with one scope with some overlap and transition with a few others. But it's another thing if you're looking through the whole spec book and it's your job to answer all these questions on every single scope item. On the construction side, that's — and everybody has their specialties, so that's why we work as a team. There's no way anybody could do this by themselves.

63:40So yeah, I've got some amazing teammates and we really banded together and got to know each other really, really well really fast, because we needed to. And we need to work as a team — we talk constantly about stuff, we go back and forth with procurement — what about this wording, how does this work, and what are we — because sometimes the questions that come in we don't know how to read or it's unclear. So we're like, well, we could —

64:04Answer it this way, but I don't know if that's what they mean. And then procurement's like, what if they're asking it in this way? And we're like, oh yeah, okay. So we all talk about it. It's always us and the client and the owner. And if it's school-related we'll bring in the school director. And yeah, we'll bring in different teammates depending on what the question is. And so it's really collaborative. We'll say, okay, how do we answer this the best way —

64:25Possible, so that we can get the best bids on this tender package. Because that keeps the playing field level. Yeah, and making it fair — technical, yeah. Because that could maybe keep the cost down, but it's going to get you the best contract. Is it — do you see it as a positive thing if someone's asking lots of questions? Shows they're engaged. It is. It makes your job a little harder I guess, but it is. And you want to be clear on —

64:51What you're bidding on, because you don't want any surprises when you get to site. Like, if there are questions, you fire them at us. It must be tough, because it takes 20 years to be an expert at one scope. So you've got to answer all these really fine details — like even just some aluminum trim next to the door — like, what is this —

65:14It matches? Yeah, and something like gym floors — they're very, very specific. And I'm not an expert in gym floors, which is why I have a team of people. Yeah, so this is the gym flooring in the school area? Yeah, there are two gyms — one's on the community side and one's on the school side. But they're both kind of used by the school and the community. And it has to have a certain amount of flexibility and bounce to it, and —

65:39There are certain criteria. Yeah. And there are a lot of things that go into it that I wouldn't know until I worked on a school. And evaluating equals is really hard, because if we get it wrong it's definitely going to be wrong. And they have a huge — cobalt — an event which equals the spec of the flooring materials — yeah, and it's huge. And that is a big event for the community — they worked super hard on it, it's —

66:07Like a national basketball tournament, and it's great, and teams come from all over Canada. And so if that floor sucks we're going to hear about it, right? And we don't want that. We want — through a lot of installers who would price it — it is a lot of competition in the region for that specifically. It all depends. So we don't really know how many there would be, but we don't know what everybody else is working on. And so we want to put stuff out that we —

66:34Know will get competitive bids. And we want to make it open enough so that if someone might have a comparable product but hasn't been able to get in, they can kind of prove themselves and get a contract. And yeah, we want to be really open to that. But we also want to make sure we don't accept something that — in the shop-drawing stage, if it doesn't add up and we've gone through five rounds of shop drawings, it comes to site, fails all —

66:59Its tests — that's going to cost money, it's going to cost time, it's going to delay the schedule, it's going to be a huge nightmare for everybody. So we don't want to do that to the project, so we have to do our due diligence beforehand. But it's a really interesting process to go through, because each one of those questions is different. It gets the — so much brainpower, so much mental energy, and group brainpower too. It's a lot of back and forth, and —

67:31There are a lot of things we try to take into consideration. Even if that process is done really well, as an estimator in different scopes, you kind of have to be aware enough that you might have to add a little bit here because you're just not quite sure about certain things — just to make sure you're covered if this or that. Even when it's a really, really good, smooth process, yeah, and you don't — and that's why asking —

68:02Questions is great. If you're like, I don't know about this part, this could be a liability — just ask. That's why we're here, that's why we have the tender process. We have a specific scope for tender. Yeah, it really is a crazy time. But when it comes to the whole design phase and the money that's been set aside or divvied out from the government — federal or provincial — and the different boards that you're working with —

68:31Is it — do you have full creative control within the budget? Like, none? Oh yeah. Well, there's — I mean, we have to get cost estimates at every stage of the design. And we'll see kind of where things land. And we always try to be — this is after you've put in your proposal and been awarded it, so then you take it from design point zero, or zero to site. Yeah, but for you as the lead and your team — and things —

69:03That you would like to see — or even the team of doctors that might be involved, they want to see — oh yeah. Some of those things impossible to come to fruition? They get first priority, because they're the client. And so yeah, there are some things that — yeah, and we kind of work with it too. I would love to see some — yeah, you're not always working with a team of doctors either, right? No, usually not. No. Like, for clinical spaces that are theirs, they're —

69:31Definitely involved. And we want to know what their needs are and how we meet them, how they work, how they function, and how we find some efficiencies and flow. Like, if somebody works two days and somebody works three days, could you share a clinic room? That kind of thing. We try to find that out, because we don't want to build a big empty building — it's going to cost a lot. And then it leads to a hollowness, like —

69:54You want your space active. And that kind of goes with security and safety and stuff too. So we try to find out how to best design for what the space is going to be used for today, and then think in the future. Are you planning on onboarding a whole bunch of new doctors? Are you planning on increasing the services in your clinic to do more intensive things like IV therapy, or endoscopy, or dialysis, or something? We kind of want to make that space —

70:26Flexible and adaptable, because healthcare changes all the time. There's so much in the mechanical drawings — every wall assembly has gas running through it —

70:40So we really have to think about the right now, and then we need to kind of guide people. Okay, what about the future? What are their goals? If they're a new doctor and they're 30 years old and they want to live in New Waterford for the next 50 years, where do they want to see their practice growing? And where do they see the gaps in health that this space could occupy? So then we can build to —

71:04Make sure that can happen, so that we're not pigeonholing them into this building that they can't use in the future. So it's very much client-driven on that part. And then in terms of budget — I don't have control. If I did — but if you're in healthcare, it's all public funds, and I'm assuming we have to be very accountable. Like, we're not putting in marble countertops — marble stains terribly. Well, some long-term care —

71:36Facilities might be private. But they're also — yeah, but they also have to be accountable to their board of directors and their members and stuff too. So in healthcare it's always very tight, but then they have very high risk and high rules and responsibilities for safety and security. So we have to use certain types of materials in there. And things — like to give an example — we have to, it's a post-disaster building and it's a high building, so —

72:10We can't use certain materials on the first number of storeys — or the ceiling height, it's classified based on its occupancy. So because it's a health centre, because there's long-term care, and there's a short-stay — a 12-bed short-stay wing — which could have a higher acuity of patients in it. They're coming from the hospital, they can't quite go home yet, so they're going to stay there for a couple of days and then go home for rehab. And so we can't use materials that have a —

72:36Flame-spread rating that — don't quote me, this is a code thing — in vestibules and stuff it can't be over 25, and in public areas over 150 or something like that. So that means in staircases we can't use rubber stair treads — can't use them, not allowed, because they catch fire and melt. And that's why the floors are typically hard concrete, and that's why they're a harder material. And sometimes those — or if we use a strip on the edge of the stair that —

73:04Has ridges in it so you don't trip over the stair, you don't slide off of it — that could be a tile, a hard material with a low flame-spread rating. But that's also more expensive than a vinyl strip. So there are certain things we don't have control over and we need to meet those requirements, because it's the CSA guidelines and the building code. Healthcare has a lot more of those than schools or commercial buildings, typical retail —

73:36Apartments, mixed use, whatever. So our ability to be fancy is limited by a lot of things. And so that's where I like to get public art or local artists — either do a public art competition or something — so we can get things on the walls, get things that are local, and really help support that artistic community. Because that's also a huge part of it — good —

74:08Or even any art is stimulating. Even bad art stimulates conversations — still art. And those are more economical ways of bringing beauty into the design, as opposed to expensive materials or that kind of thing. I love the Robin Williams quote in Dead Poets Society — it's like, engineering, and he mentions all these careers, these are all things we do to make a living, but arts is why we stay alive, or something like that. Yeah, yeah. And it's true. And there's some —

74:38Beautiful art up in Cape Breton, and amazing artists. And there are musicians in Atlantic Canada — yeah, aren't they different? I guess a little bit too. And Halifax has a lot of good ones from Cape Breton. Yeah. And it's that culture and that community and that stuff that makes us feel good — it makes us put a smile on our face — and the things that through our lives we get accustomed to and appreciate. But then when you're in long-term care, where is it? So that continuum of —

75:06Life that we want — that's how I want to get older. I want to still have the same things I have now, but I also might need a little bit of — so it's interesting to try to weave in some of that beauty and some of that art and some of that nature. And that's the stuff that makes a really big difference. And I try to get — but as an architect I can't be in charge of the —

75:31Public art, so that has to be kind of driven by the community. So we try to find community partners. And so if there are any artists in Cape Breton — hopefully some of them are listening — it would be something. It's really neat for them to get an inside look at the lead architect on that project in the community, especially something that's going to be there for the next 50 to 100 years and is going to be a centrepoint of the community. Yeah, it's a big deal to a lot of —

75:57People. And you want to have a say in something that's involved in the design or how things are going to look, or have something up on the wall and show your stuff off. And I would love to have almost like a gallery — a room so you can have rotating exhibits. They have them in very fancy offices — law offices and stuff — but it would be so much — yeah, I was like, Dal has a huge art collection, but —

76:28Why can't we have that in a health centre? And it would reach so many more people. And it doesn't have to be fancy — like I have a picture my kid drew on my fridge, it's amazing. We're going to frame it. It's got a hundred arms and one eyeball, and you're like, this is art. It doesn't need to be amazing, but there are amazing artists out there. And so just having that wide range of people — and that's what the whole facility is about — it —

76:54Really should be for everybody, and so everybody should be represented in it. Yeah, that's one of the most interesting parts of even the show that we're trying to produce, and the construction industry — there are so many neat buildings that mean so much in different capacities to our communities. There's a lot of rich — a lot of depth to them. And it's really neat to sit and talk about the back stories or what went into the —

77:29Design, how it came about. If anybody working on the project likes art and wants to contribute, you know, you can come and visit it in the building that you helped build. It's amazing. Is there any other project in the last three and a half years since you've been the Healthcare Sector Lead at A49 that has really stood out to you? Is there one in particular? Well, this one I've been working on for three years. Yeah, right? So this one is —

77:59Kind of just getting to the construction phase. Yeah, but you've been helping with the design since day one. So yeah, there are a few — there are some really interesting things. Like we did an assessment on the Purdy Building, which I can see still —

78:21And yeah, in Dartmouth. And so it's on that mental health campus. And we met with every department that works out of that campus and did a big assessment — like a master plan — of what makes the most sense. And we heard from all these departments that have been operating out of it. Like, I don't know — have you ever been in that building? I'm trying to think if I have. So I think they've been trying to tear it down for years, but they filmed —

78:52The top floor? Oh really? And it was scary. We went up there — there's a cage that you get in for the elevator that goes up to that floor. And yeah, I had an intern with me and she was like, oh my god, there's a Ouija board. Why would they do that? Like — and there are pigeons flying in. It's like — and —

79:19Yeah, it's a very good set for a movie. But there are people working out of the building because there's space there and they need somewhere to go. And they're providing these amazing community services for people that really need it. And they're keeping them out of the hospital, which is great. So these are the people that need it the most. And so it was really awesome to go and talk to them all and to see what their needs are and how they're working — in healthcare —

79:49Professionals are amazing at working with what they have. So they do workarounds constantly for the buildings they're put in — not by choice — and they make it work because they have to. And so they're super adaptable and really flexible. But sometimes — and I remember meeting with one group in particular, and they do community group sessions. They're like, okay, we're talking about the group room, we're trying to plan it out — okay, what do you need in here for equipment and furniture, and how —

80:18Big is it going to be and what are you doing here? They're like, okay, well we need a fridge. I'm like, okay, sounds good. And how many chairs and how many people? And I was like, oh, do you have something in the fridge? And as a nurse I like those processes — I can understand leading a group and how this would go. And so I'm kind of thinking about all the steps you would do, and I try to think of how to do things more —

80:38Efficiently as an architect, because that often means a better system for the staff — so the staff can get from point A to point B easier. And the patients, or the residents, or the visitors, or whatever, don't get confused when they're getting into the building, because that's a huge barrier. Especially for someone who has any kind of mental health issue, or anxiety, or anything like that — if I can't get in the building and I don't feel safe, I'm not going to go. And that's fair. So I try to really look at that and —

81:09Okay, what are some of your barriers and how do people get in? And so they're like, okay, we need a fridge. Okay. Then we kind of walk around and they're like, it has to have a freezer. And I was like, okay, what do you put in the freezer? And she's like, ice. So one of the therapies is — and they teach people how to deal with different kinds of emotions or outbursts at home, so that they don't end —

81:31Up in the hospital. Great, it's a great service. And one of the therapies is dunking your head into a bucket of cold water with ice in it, so it kind of shocks your system and resets your system. It's something they can do at home and it's something they teach in the class. And I was like, okay, so do you use the fridge for snacks? And she's like, no, we just use the freezer. I was like, so you have an entire fridge just for the freezer — just for a —

81:51Bag of ice? She's like, yeah. And I was like, do you buy bags of ice? She's like, yeah, we have an ice budget. And I was like, so could we get you an ice machine? And she was like, oh my god, an ice machine would be amazing! I was like, so yeah, we had to get there. So if I didn't ask those questions — yeah, right — we wouldn't, like, we would have just given them a residential-style fridge because that's what they asked for, and they would be buying ice every week.

82:15And so that's like — somebody has to go get it, there's an ice budget for pete's sake. And really all we need is a countertop ice machine — takes up less space, less energy, and they can have as much ice as they want. And that's like a bachelor party budget item. Yeah, yeah, we're gonna need an ice machine, a slurpee machine. It's yeah, it's that kind of stuff that really — it makes me happy, we figured something out. We got down —

82:44To what they actually need and they can use the space. And they can take that ice machine anywhere. You get thousands of those conversations just to completely design a building — a hospital, a healthcare centre, an outpatient centre, long-term care — yeah, something. Yeah, that's my claim to fame: an ice machine. It does give insight into what it's like, with those simple things you'd never think about walking through the hospital. No, yeah — it's all these little things. And everybody in a hospital —

83:14Is so specialized. So that's why we have to meet with this group of doctors, this group of doctors, this group of nurses, the home care people, the continuing care people — yeah. So the New Waterford Hub — is that a five-year ordeal for yourself? Probably a bit more, depending on — and that's typical for healthcare. Yeah. Same thing if you were working on the regional —

83:37Hospital? Okay, Cape Breton — that would be eight, or ten, twelve years. Fifty? Yeah, fifty years — it's your whole career. Yeah, yeah. I've known people that have had healthcare careers for 20 years — I bet — 20 years working on the same project. Like the MUHC in Montreal or something like that. Because they're such big projects. Well, if you're Gaudí in Spain, you're working on that — that's a lifetime, that's like 160 years, you need three lifetimes. Yeah, and then somebody tries to pass the baton before — pick that —

84:05Up and you're like, yeah, take this over, sure, no problem, just step right in. It's all upside down. No, big large complex projects in such a long duration — do you find that that's more satisfying than working on several different small projects at once? Or do you ever get — like, man, I really wish I could move on? No, well — I mean, sometimes you're like — oh, more of the same. But no, because it keeps moving forward and there are so many pieces of it and each phase is different and has its own challenges.

84:41It's like a new job every phase. Like every job. And no — even if I had another New Waterford Hub, they would be different. Like, even if it's identical — so when somebody's like, oh, we'll just take this typology or this long-term care building and plop it down here, it'll be the exact same — it's never the exact same. Even if you did two Subway sandwich shops, it's never going to be the same. You're always going to have different stuff going on. And that's what —

85:06I like about architecture — it's never the same. No two days are ever the same. It is not boring. And it's always a challenge, and you always get to work through things. And when you're successful getting through a big phase, it's like a huge team effort and everybody gets really excited about it and they all get jazzed up for the next phase. So it's exciting that way. And the New Waterford — because there are a few phases to it and they're two totally different —

85:31Things — then I'm trying to keep my team like, okay, the school team, but now I'm trying to get the healthcare team and share that knowledge between them. So now people feel comfortable working with the school requirements and the health requirements, which is really interesting. And it doesn't pigeonhole people into one thing — it gives a broader appreciation for other aspects of the design. And I do like the small projects too, because they —

85:56Can be really fun and you can learn about different things. Like replacing a floor in a — yeah, sometimes it's more challenging than some of the bigger ones. Oh yeah, you're like, we didn't know that was in the wall — there's a whole thing in here and nobody knows what it is or where it goes. Especially in some of the hospitals that just get renovated and renovated and renovated — such complex systems. Yeah. And is there often a good track history of what's been —

86:22There's never — they try, like, we try, and there are as-builts and stuff. But you never know — some of them are old sketches, probably, that were done in the —

86:38And it all depends on what was actually built too. Like, this is what the drawings say was in there, but that was not the case. Finding seaweed in the walls or something — there's always something exciting happening. Yeah, they used to do that a lot. Yeah, that's what you had. So they just used whatever materials were accessible. Yeah, I've seen newspaper, I've seen — yeah, I've seen horsehair. Oh, good. In Alberta there's some horsehair. Yeah, just whatever you had to try to keep —

87:08Your family warm. Let's see if Roxul has that on the coming out — that'll be the next course, it'll be so expensive. But this has been really, really neat to get to chat with you, Sarah. Yeah, it was fun. On behalf of A49 and just a neat backstory of nursing to architecture — and the New Waterford Hub, obviously a really cool upcoming project here in the province. And just to get some perspective from your point of view of —

87:47That process and your whole journey. And yeah, this has been a real treat. Hopefully you've enjoyed your time with us. Yeah, it's fun. Yeah, we'd love to have A49 back on the show again too for some interesting topics — I'm sure there are lots of other projects coming down the pipe that aren't strange to people in the news and stuff like that. So lots of healthcare dollars being spent —

88:13These days. Yeah, really. I'm sure you feel that, obviously, with all the projects that are intended — well, a lot of things need some attention, there was not a lot done. And so now it's getting to the point where it really needs to be done. And the focus on long-term care is great, because they desperately need assistance and they deserve to have nice places to live out their lives. Absolutely. So yeah, I'm looking forward to trying to make that better. Cool, yeah.

88:44Well, good luck with that, and on behalf of my grandmother and all the elders, I'm sure they're happy that you're on the case. Yeah, thanks for being with us — this has been great. Yeah, it was awesome, thanks for having me — this was a really fun experience. Cheers. This episode is brought to you by Cook Insurance, your trusted insurance broker in Atlantic Canada for 50 years. Insurance is complex, and the Cook team focuses on delivering comprehensive solutions for your construction needs, including builder's —

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