BIM, Pre-Planning, and the $100 vs $10,000 Rule — Patrick Lafreniere, JCB Construction Canada (Newfoundland)

0:03Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Today we're very pleased to have our first official guest tuning in from Newfoundland. We've had many companies here on the show obviously that are carrying out business in Newfoundland, but our first official guest tuning in from Newfoundland, so that's very exciting. We have Patrick, Project Director with JCB Construction Canada, tuning in from JCB's office on Water Street in Newfoundland. Thanks for being here, Patrick. Yeah, thanks for having me for sure.

0:41I appreciate it. Lots of topics to discuss today with JCB Construction. Perhaps we can just talk a little bit about yourself and a little bit about your journey. We were talking just before we started recording here about you moving from Montreal — I think it was — to Newfoundland in the end of the '90s. Is that right? Yeah, so in my journey I set out to Newfoundland in construction, started in 1999. I moved from not Montreal, but close enough.

1:18It was Ottawa, and I was in the IT sector, you know, in the computer manufacturing industry. I was very young. My first background is digital, and I worked for a company — and here I am, a young man, 24 years old — and I was reporting to the president of the company. I said, "Jesus, can't be it, you know. I've got to do this for the next 40..." Anyway, long story short, I decided to have quite a major

1:49lifestyle change. And it's definitely not a midlife crisis at 24, but I moved to Newfoundland. Was there a link? Absolutely, there was a link. There was definitely a foot in the door. So I moved to Newfoundland and I was prepared to go to Memorial University, but instead I went to work in the construction industry in structural steel — not knowing what structural steel was, or a piece of angle iron, or a channel, or

2:24or what — the owner still today, the owner is, you know, a wide flange. So I don't know what that is, but he taught me everything. He taught me all the shapes and how to do quantity takeoffs, how to draft for detailing, so to put pieces into the shop for fabrication. Do you want to mention his name, Patrick, or what company? Absolutely, no, I'm not shy. He's a phenomenal mentor of mine. I'll forever be grateful. Absolutely. So Roy Parsons

2:52is his name, and the name of the company is SteelFab — still on the go today, as a matter of fact. SteelFab just finished a project that I'm currently undertaking here down on Water Street. They did great for me, and they always have. But yeah, Roy definitely took me under his wing and taught me a lot. And it was a short duration afterwards that I

3:19went to Roy and I said, "You know, I really appreciate everything you've done for me, but I truly feel that for the interest of your business and your company, and out of respect, the person sitting in my seat should have an education." We talked about it a little bit, and he encouraged me to go to the College of the North Atlantic, which I did — the architectural engineering program. That's Newfoundland's — I think that's the only trade college in Newfoundland. It's the trade college exactly. And it used to

3:49be — I think that was Cabot College of Trades. So today it is the CNA, College of the North Atlantic. It's a three-year diploma program. I started part-time and continued to work for Roy part-time, and then I thought to myself, this is going to take 20 years to complete. I don't have that kind of time. So I said, listen, I'm going to do this full-time and I'll see you in a couple of years. Which I did. I graduated, and

4:20very successfully, and I went back to work for him. So that's how I got into construction, and I haven't looked back. It's been my journey — my journey now is for over 20 years. So at what point — as I see you've got a project management PMP from Memorial U, that was from 2015 — was that something you did while you were working at that time? The PMP is the Project Management Professional designation, and Memorial University operates

4:58kind of a sub-campus called the Gardiner Centre. I did that while working. Although my first attempt, I did try to self-study. You pick up the book — the PMBOK it's called — and you kind of read a book like you would a novel. But unfortunately the book doesn't read that way. So I decided to take that course at the Gardiner Centre, and very good course. Very

5:36I can't speak highly enough of it. Before the course was over — well, listen, on day one the chief of the course came to the classroom. I think there were 37 students, and he said, "I encourage you, before the last day of class, to challenge the exam." The GMAT — the... it's the PMP exam challenge. Right, the GMAT — that's an MBA. That's an MBA, I think, for

6:10the MBA, I think so. Yeah, so I left it at that, and I don't think anyone really said anything after his suggestion on day one. Sure enough, I show up on the last day of the course, and I put up my hand and said, "I'm now a PMP." And I was the only one out of 37. I couldn't believe it. You challenged it and you passed? I challenged it — it's a tough exam. It's

6:42You're there at a testing center — you've got the headphones, a little cubicle. Oh, it's a little cubicle. It's so quiet it's deafening. You know, they set it up that way just to make sure they maximize your psychological and mental limits to see what you — well, it was challenged that day. It's a four-hour exam. It's not easy. All multiple choice, 200 multiple choice questions. Since we're on the topic, I wonder

7:13with your position now with JCB — and we'll get more into that — as a Project Director, can you maybe just for a minute or two just describe, because a lot of people do aspire to have a PMP designation, whether they're working with a large construction firm or in many different industries. Just to get that intuition with the critical path and how to manage so many complex moving parts — can you maybe explain how it's benefited you, like some of that

7:47knowledge from the PMP? Well, first of all, language begins to change. When prior to doing the PMP, you're probably fighting a lot of fires — let's face it, in construction, things are hectic — and you're trying to manage your day and your project as best as you can. After doing the PMP,

8:22you get to understand how the relationship between scope and cost works, and you can speak more intelligently about the triangle of project management. If you change — so the triangle meaning that it's an equilateral triangle, right, so all sides are equal — of time: a project has a finite end; projects are supposed to end, they don't go on forever; it's not a production line like Toyota. A project has a start and an end. So time is

9:00the cost is finite. You agreed to do this project for a certain cost, right? So that's the other side. And the scope — you said that I would do this scope for a certain duration, for a certain amount of money. So it's an equilateral triangle. Now we know that in projects there's scope change. So all of a sudden that one side of the triangle maybe got a little bit longer because you added — well, you can only, if you want to

9:35continue to have that equilateral, you can only do that by changing time and cost. Yeah, I can hear something — if you don't. Right, what do you say? I know — I can hear some subcontractors who are listening right now thinking, well, we just got approved for a couple hundred thousand dollar change order for all this extra work, but they didn't extend our duration or our crew size. On the other end, you know, listen — it's the way it is. If you want to maintain

10:06the equilateral triangle of the project — the fundamentals of project management — without compromising quality (quality is in the center, you must keep it the same), if you don't, then it's a situation where of course there might be an agreement to bring in extra crews to accommodate that additional scope. That might have been part of the cost, right. So now if you brought in additional forces, well then you've reduced the time, and therefore you're not affecting

10:42the triangle — not so much. Of course it affects the management: your critical path is moving faster, you've got more manpower on the site, there's a need to eliminate errors with the transition between scopes and organizing that way and stuff. It's really — I think we could talk about this the whole hour or so. Go ahead, sorry. Go ahead. I was going to say so I speak to a lot of owners about the

11:12importance — on that note — of putting a lot of effort into your pre-planning. If you put a lot of effort into pre-planning, a lot of effort into your contract documents ahead of time, into the design, you can potentially avoid a lot of that scope change. Now I know a lot of owners want a quick return on their investment, so yeah, they may not consider themselves to allow enough time

11:50ahead, you know — they want to get going. Right. And on that note, in your experience, do you find — when you say an owner, you're talking about a building asset owner, it could be from various different perspectives — their knowledge of the construction process, is that going to lead them to understand more intimately, the way that you do? So as a GC, when an owner allows a GC — and not just JCB, a GC — to open up

12:31the door and let the GC mentor the owner, yes, and build that trust, and having early contractor involvement in that pre-planning

12:47I call it the influence curve. There's more of an opportunity while there is no shovel in the ground and when you haven't purchased anything, than after all these contracts have been awarded. Right — the power to influence is over then. After that it becomes a change in scope. And you could almost go as far as saying, right from that orientation point of the project — which is a year or many years before the hole goes in the ground — if the mentality of the owner is

13:18somewhat a threat because they've had a bad experience with a GC who took advantage, or didn't do their due diligence and do what they said they were going to do, and everything went bad — now they have this relationship right from the get-go that isn't... I agree. It's tough. I forget what the saying is, you know — "Fool me once, shame on you; fool me twice, shame on me." Or maybe it's

13:51the reverse. I don't remember anymore. But to change that mentality — if an owner didn't get a good experience the first time around, it becomes a stereotype. "You're the GC" — that's the GC stereotype. Yeah, yeah. I try to change that. And I'm sure most of your repeat clients know that, right? But I guess it takes time to build those relationships, build that trust, and then maybe have some more

14:23freedom to do things the way you know they need to be done. That's certainly nice. Yeah, that's some very interesting topic. I think, you know, just from some different perspectives — like a subcontractor who's working with a developer who might have an in-house architecture firm and they're doing everything preliminary in-house — you can almost tell when you look through the drawings, how things might go, how detailed they are, or

14:57what kind of time was spent on assemblies. And I know you guys are a big believer in BIM, of course, which most are nowadays. But I think maybe JCB — I may be wrong — but in Montreal was one of the pioneers of acquiring that software and starting to implement it. And of course that's all about building in 3D before it ever goes to site — transition and interference drawings and stuff. But I think it's such a key thing, like

15:30if the pre-construction is done right, from the point the shovel goes in the ground — like you said — it's almost like everything goes smooth. And the people now that are involved building it almost don't even know who to thank for all the energy put in — well, they know who to thank, but I just mean it goes smooth. And probably not to everyone's credit from the whole process before the building process, but when it's not done and everything's not

16:04happening smoothly, it's pretty easy to understand why. So you've introduced a lot of topics there. You mentioned the quality of documents, and sub-trades — or what not — even the GC will look at the quality of the drawings and how it was put together. And this is a repeat thing. As a matter of fact, it was only — I think just today — I received a document, and there's a

16:36great study from Ryerson University in Toronto. This was a study done — it's not very old — and it's about the quality of documents and how much an owner should spend. Is there an upward trend — are the quality of documents getting better or worse? It's some very interesting stuff. I'd be happy to share it with you if you wish. The punchline was this — and I even shared it publicly:

17:10If you can catch an error during pre-planning — an unexpected error during pre-planning — it might cost an owner a hundred dollars to fix. But if that same error is only caught during construction, it could cost ten thousand dollars. Now this is an example. And why does it cost ten thousand dollars during construction? All of a sudden you have to figure out what the error is, and there's a stop of construction in that particular area, which means you're impacting your schedule. You might have to buy more material, or

17:46different material that you've already purchased and is on site that is now useless to the owner — so that money is gone. You'll never get it back. But you have to buy more. It creates disruptions for the next trade to come in line. "I was expecting you to come here on day X but now I have to push you out to day Y," because if there's rework I may have to demolish a wall, a ceiling, a floor. So if you found that error in pre-planning and the quality of drawings

18:20continued to increase, you'll see that the fluidity on the construction site will be that much more elevated. So you introduced BIM. Yes. JCB had been using BIM for several years. We actually have two in-house BIM experts, and one person is actually doing a master's degree in BIM — in BIM construction as well. Yeah, so that's how much we believe in it. The project that I'm just completing here on Water Street was — we used BIM and very early,

19:02and I can tell you that there were some of my sub-trades that were not in favour — they didn't understand it perhaps, it was an unknown to them. However, once they became involved and saw the value, they said, "I wish I would have done this two or five years ago. I wish I would have done this long ago," and they said, "This will be my path forward." We found lots of clashes, we moved pipe and ductwork. It was a fantastic tool.

19:37Yeah, and I think when it comes to innovation — you know, we live in Atlantic Canada and sometimes we're not as susceptible to change as other areas. It can be just the size of our communities or whatever the mentality is. But I've seen that too — once they try and they see the value. But you really have to get them to try, and a lot of times that means going through a phase where

20:04people aren't happy with the change until they understand it. And then the value is presented. Listen, my plumber — what a wonderful company to work with — he was one that said, "Well, if there's a problem, I'll just fix it on site," and all this kind of stuff, right? Then I said, "But don't you want to know and understand the problems before they occur?" Think about that — before they occur. That's the tool that BIM allows you to forecast. And we actually now have

20:39the power to influence and save cost and time and change management later, because we solved the problem in

20:53On that same topic, to piggyback — I know of at least one situation here in downtown Halifax where a large developer is building multiple buildings. Obviously won't name any names or anything, but they've hired a BIM professional specifically for that group of projects, just for that reason. To spend, you know, whatever that salary is — it's going to save them a lot more in the long run. Tenfold at least. Oh, for sure, for sure. Yeah, and I think what you were saying earlier about catching

21:25something pre-construction and it costs a hundred, catch something during construction and it costs ten thousand — as an analogy. And with the triangle you were talking about with PMP, the equilateral triangle where time, scope, and money are all equal — a lot of times they're not equal in the minds of certain people in the management team. It's all about time and money. I think if you're in construction, you're going to feel that time and money is

21:56but like you said, if scope could

22:02be in line, as an equal with those two — with those two — then maybe we would see that more. Because a lot of times it's, "Well, I want that hole in the ground because my building's going to be open this much sooner," and that kind of thing. So I mean, we could — like you said — we could go around in circles, but it's very — and again, part of our podcast is

22:31just having those open, ongoing, fluid conversations with people to see what might transpire and having an ongoing conversation about all these topics. That is part of — I think — the solution. The more people that are involved and passionate and have the knowledge, the more we all talk, the more things change. Well, listen, to your viewers as they're listening to this today — I encourage other GCs or subcontractors, feel free

23:08and owners, right, developers — to reach out. And if you want to understand more about that triangle and BIM and stuff like that, my knowledge is there to share. Because the way I see it is, if we can all share more knowledge — it's not proprietary information that makes JCB successful — but to share knowledge and to make the industry that much better, and mentor. Then maybe what we spoke about earlier, that stigma where it's construction and

23:42we're not going down the right path, and at least frustrations and change orders and stuff like that — maybe that mantra can start to change, very slowly. I agree, I agree. And in the same way, like you said, your subcontractors were so happy after the change with BIM, and they're going to use that going forward — would be the same with maybe some developers who have had some bad experiences. And once you can show them

24:13the value in real time, you're there. I'll be the first to tell you very openly that when I hear a project is not going well — even one of my own — I feel bad, because at the end of the day it's the end user that's the one that's going to suffer, because they were expecting X and it's not going well. And so in terms of the

24:47entire construction industry as a whole, we all want construction projects to succeed — for everybody, for the owners, for the end user, and of course for the general contractors. I couldn't agree more, Patrick. So let's talk about JCB Construction. Been around, origins in '85, headquarters in Quebec, also an office in Toronto. And they've done some work in Atlantic Canada over the last five to ten

25:23years, but opened an office in Newfoundland where you are now currently. Maybe just a little bit about why Newfoundland and the growth. I know there's a few projects that I think they did in tandem with a developer, and some of the connections there, and some of the building there — was it? Absolutely. What's the story there with how they came to the decision to open an office? So like I said, part of JCB's

25:55success for such a long generation has been repeat clientele. We've done a lot of Bank of Montreals over the years, and Shoppers Drug Marts. Pet Value is a national client that even recently has approached us, and they want to build, I think, 20 new stores in 2022, or some of that, and renovate another 15 — I think, I don't know exactly. But it's relationships like that, including

26:29what got JCB more strategically planted in Newfoundland was a great client of ours called ALRE Properties. ALRE Properties have come to JCB time and time again. They rely on us to develop for them in Montreal as well as in Atlantic Canada. They took a major landmark — I'll call it — in Newfoundland: the old Acan Windows site in Paradise, Newfoundland. Demolished it and built a super-centre over there, the plaza. There's a gas station, some food stores, a Shoppers, a coffee shop,

27:10things like that. So it's about five or six different buildings, and a big development — very very good for the area, for Paradise. And then just now is the completion of a building downtown. It's three stories above ground of commercial, including the Bank of Montreal as a tenant, and a one-story below Water Street for parking — again for the same developer. And

27:47he relies on JCB to get it done. You're pretty close range to that project too, over the last few years, from your office there. It's definitely been nice to look out the window and see the progression. I could just pick up the phone and call my superintendent and say, "Hey, what's going on over here and why is that not happening over there?" It's harder now, of course, that we have a

28:15full building envelope — I can't see through walls yet.

28:21But downtown has its challenges. You start digging and the harbour comes in underneath your feet. You have to play with the tides. Your learning curve definitely goes up very very fast. Tell us a little bit more about that project, because I think it started in maybe July of 2019 and you're just about at completion now. Is that right? Yeah, there were several versions

28:51of design through 2019, trying to see what would work for the area. Obviously you've got to get approvals from the City of St. John's, there's a process to that. Being downtown, there are things like heritage departments who get involved as well — they want a particular look, a heritage look. Who's the architect, Patrick? The architect is Powers Brown Architecture. They have an office in St. John's, one in — and throughout the US. It's a very

29:29great firm. I've really enjoyed working with them on this project — very talented people. In terms of construction, finally after it was all said and done and permanent permit in hand, it was approximately May/June of 2020. June of 2020 was the first piece of equipment on the site, which was the piles — of course, because the past is the harbour. So if anyone knows the history of St. John's, well, Water Street was the edge of the water until you — I think you know,

30:04they continued to fill and fill. And there were definitely ships coming up to Water Street. But now it's all backfilled — years ago. There was a great fire in 18-something, of course there's lots of history. So we had to drive piles into the ground to hit bedrock to support the building.

30:28That was June of 2020. Time flies, time flies. And you mentioned you made the transition to JCB around the start of the pandemic. So yeah, yeah, I did. Very very successful time with them so far. It's been just slightly over two years, and it's been challenging — construction in itself is challenging — but a nice, young company. When I say young, I mean the owners are

31:05young people, and really ready to take JCB to the next level. And they've successfully started to do that. Even with the implementation of BIM, they value it, they believe in it. All major projects utilize it. We are paperless — all of the superintendents have iPads and they're fully connected using Autodesk Build. Yeah, we're fully digital. Yeah, because I think — if I read correctly — I think the Toronto office opened in recent years too, right? So

31:42there's been a lot of growth to try and reach their way toward the national brand that they're achieving. You've got to control growth, of course. If you go too fast, you're not going to please your key repeat clients. You definitely have to manage growth. Just because an opportunity presents itself doesn't mean you always have to say yes. And sometimes it's okay to say no. "I'm just not ready yet, I'm not

32:13there yet, but I will be." Yeah. I agree. I think it's one of the most important things — your ability to say no might get you further than anything else. It's hard to say no to opportunities, and big opportunities. It's exciting and it just does so many things. To be able to say no when you should — sounds simple but it's important. It's hard. It takes practice. I'm involved in

32:46some boards and conferences many times, and I keep saying a five-year-old at the playground has no problem saying, "Hello, will you be my friend?" But as adults, somewhere along our lives that half disappears. It takes practice. Everyone's just as shy as the next person. And you say, what are you guys talking about? It takes practice. It takes practice to say no, but it's okay.

33:16That's great advice, that's great advice. Tell me a little bit about — am I right in saying that JCB does a lot of private work, but is there also some public tenders that you get involved with? You mentioned we started recording our episode here — some stuff coming up at Memorial University, and things are a bit slow right now in Newfoundland overall. Maybe I'm wrong to say that — I'll let you speak on the market there. But is JCB pricing a lot of public

33:52work in Atlantic Canada as well? No. JCB — our livelihood, our bread and butter — I would say more than 95 percent is private. Yeah, private work, private owners, private developers. And mostly in the construction management world. When I talk to a potential client, I'd like to say that we're just a very humble — in the construction management world, it's open book. What we see, they see. There's no hidden. We

34:31work together as a team along with the architect and evaluate the scopes and contracts and the tendering process — everyone's involved, which is very important to us, so that the client — we put the client at the forefront. In terms of public procurement, you know, it goes in waves. With the pandemic, Newfoundland has royalties from oil, and as we know the oil sector

35:09a few years ago went down to $30 a barrel. Well, it's hard for that sector to continue pumping a lot of out of the shores of Newfoundland. I'm not in that industry, I don't know the ins and outs, I can't overly speak intelligently. But I think some offshore platforms may have stopped during the pandemic because of the price of oil — it wasn't profitable. And so as a

35:41direct result, public procurement slows down a lot. Are there very large capital projects on the go today? Absolutely there are. There's a big infrastructure project on the other side of the island. As well as, you know, in St. John's, a replacement of the mental health facility, and there's talks of more. We have a very aging infrastructure, and some schools may need to be replaced in the future. The penitentiary perhaps is a talk — has been for

36:17over the past year or two. And maybe our courts — like our Supreme Court — they are aging. Everything's aging. It's time to build more. And something to consider is some new language I've learned recently: "shovel-worthy" — shovel-worthy projects, to understand the flow of goods. Newfoundland has several ports: there's a port here downtown St. John's where container ships come, there's one

36:55in Argentia, I think there's one in Corner Brook — looking to perhaps be expanded. And then outside of that, all the goods to Newfoundland — we are an island — they come via transport truck from the ferry. So even a growth there, to have maybe a dedicated lane just for transport trucks, might be a great idea to get more goods in and out of Newfoundland. And that helps procurement, by the way. If the ferry system

37:29has a choice in North Sydney and says, "I can take one more truck" — is it going to be the truck full of bananas and apples, or is it going to be the truck full of — well, the bananas will win, because food for people on the island is always going to trump materials and products. Shovel-worthy projects — I think a keen eye on that will be important looking into the

38:03future in 2022, '23, '24 — that sector will start to strive a little bit more. Talk a little bit about your team with JCB in Newfoundland — as project director — and you mentioned 95 percent private and as a CM. You have site supers on site. What about labour shortage, material cost increase? Just talk a little bit about your

38:43team and the current state of a couple of your projects and those things that are kind of forefront of everyone's minds. Even before this podcast we talked about how the pandemic may have hindered some industries, but it also opened up other industries. Well, one thing that it opened up for JCB is that the virtual work world is alive and well. And with that, that leads into my team. So I have a

39:20great team and I have a big team. I have the accounting department that helps me with billing and receivables for everything that I undertake here in Newfoundland and in Atlantic Canada. I have another team that assists — they help with job coordination, with the issuance of POs or contracts, and tracking all of the paperwork. And then locally, yes, absolutely, every project has a superintendent

39:58on the ground, a labourer. We had a wonderful fellow here for the longest time — the project is dwindling down now, so there's not much of a need for that — but we had a labourer here for almost a year and a half. So there's a big team. And the virtual world definitely opened up those channels. Yeah, absolutely. It's definitely changing things, and like we talked about previously

40:30there are lots of positives that have come out of our situation over the last couple of years. Now this is Atlantic Canada based, and I'm not sure how much about some of these projects happening in other places that you are involved with with JCB. But maybe to give our listeners some context — I was looking through some of the interesting projects that Rosanna sent our way — and Collège Sainte-Anne is a lot of neat stuff going on. For those,

41:03is it two high schools, or was it one high school and then a building had caught fire during the construction phase so you're now building two structures? Yeah, that's correct. And where is that? It's in Quebec. It's just maybe half an hour away from our head office in Brossard. Rosanna is our marketing guru in Brossard, by the way. Yeah, JCB was successful in receiving a contract — CM, yes, construction management — for Collège Sainte-Anne.

41:39It's like a private college — whether there are many, I think every province probably has a private college, but it's like a, you know, a high school — to build a new pavilion for them. When we were about to begin, they had an unfortunate incident: yes, another pavilion completely burned to the ground, completely not salvageable. And they came to JCB for help, and we were there for them.

42:16I spoke earlier about the establishment of relationships and trust, and it takes a little while to curate that relationship. There was no hesitation in the minds of the college that they had the right team in. We went right away — first of all, the demolition of this unfortunate incident. I saw the video of the fire on your YouTube channel, and it was a very old structure with asbestos and things like that as well.

42:47So it was a complete perimeter wall for containment, very quickly executed — a big team. And then construction has started ever since. There are some neat things to that college. First of all, we use BIM — that's 100% for sure. BIM is very alive and very well used. It enables pre-construction. It enables people like the sprinkler contractor and the ductwork contractor to pre-manufacture set lengths of pipe

43:27or duct and bring it all to site. And now the tradespeople all they've got to do is put it up and it fits. It's a lego. It's one big lego. Schedule — it helps the schedule absolutely. No one has to go back and say, "Okay, what's the measurement? Send that back to the shop, wait for the piece to come." Right, and labour cost too. Two sides of it. But one of the unique things — and this is a real highlight, and

43:56you may have seen the video on this — I encourage everyone to check it out. It's — I believe one of the first installations for sure in Quebec, maybe eastern Canada — but it's a solar panel that looks like a flower. A Smart Flower, right? A Smart Flower. It looks like a flower. And essentially why is it a Smart Flower? Because just like a flower — when the sun is out the flower blooms, and so all of the petals start to, like a fan,

44:28open up in a 360 degree and position itself and continue to rotate and follow the sun. And at night it goes to sleep and it folds up and tucks away. It follows the trajectory of the sun throughout the day. Is that right? Throughout the day, absolutely. And so it's that kind of innovation and the ability to implement it on a project that helps JCB always push the envelope forward. Yeah, this week,

45:01knowing that we were going to be chatting, I was looking through some of the Collège Sainte-Anne stuff, just some of the interesting things about it. When I saw that, I had been talking last week with a gentleman who's a sales rep for a sustainable building products agency, and he had some pendant lighting with just a basic solar panel on street lights in a park or by a tennis court. They're solar panels and that's how the park is

45:28lit. But when I saw the Smart Flower on the campus there, I thought, wow, that's above and beyond. I think it says 40 percent more efficient — yes — than your typical solar panel. And it is such a cool thing. It's like five metres high, just for context on how big that is. It's large. Yeah, it's large, it's neat. Yeah. What about the radiant floors — and of course this is a carbon-neutral

46:00building. Is that one of the first carbon-neutral buildings in Montreal, in the country? I won't say it for the country — I'm sure there are more than one. But again, having worked with the client and the architects and the whole team to make sure that we meet those targets — it's not just to say the building is carbon neutral. You actually have to demonstrate it, and that takes a

46:29team. So there are people in-house with their LEED designation, including people from the consultant side and from the owner's side, so that we all have a part to play to make sure it is a carbon-neutral project. Yeah. Can you — and carbon neutral — I know this might be off on a tangent, but it has to do with the manufacturing process of the materials, the actual building process, and then how the building performs. So it's a

47:00whole — correct. And once it's — it's definitely the next evolution. JCB has done many LEED projects. I think today a lot of people know what that is. But carbon neutral is more than that. Yeah. And I think it's — so it's a net-zero footprint over the full duration? Correct. Could you compare that to, like, is that for commercial — is that similar to a Passive House designation in some

47:37ways? In a lot of ways, almost the same, I believe. I'll let the professionals educate me on those topics. Sure, yeah, me too. It's hard sometimes with the terminology — if you're not a professional, it's hard to keep up with exactly what it means. That's the only reason I asked. For sure. Obviously something we're all learning about. But the topic — just introducing this topic here today proves a valid point. So

48:07is this college being carbon neutral — are there more in Canada? Yes, I absolutely think there are. The quantity I'm not sure of. As many countries including Canada move to a carbon-neutral world, and it is poised to — I forget now — by 2050 or something like that — is the mandate. This is JCB's comfort: that we have built these, and when the next project comes up, when

48:54the next building owner is looking for that experience level and the knowledge and lessons learned, JCB has that in their repertoire. Absolutely. That's a very valuable thing to have on the company CV in project history. I'll mention Pierre-Thibault — I hope I said that right — in A49, who are the architects on that project, just since we're chatting about it. Am I right in saying that? I'm not sure. I have my notes here, so I think I am. We'll

49:24we'll leave this in. She definitely knows her stuff. What about — there are lots of interesting parts of this building, but there's one I wanted to ask you about. I just find it so cool. The mahogany and oak window frames — these large, pre-glazed units, about 7.5 metres long, 2.5 metres high, they weighed 3,000 pounds. JCB had to

50:00invent a new forklift setup and some of the gear to actually install these — right, with six men to lift it — because it couldn't be done with the crane. Is that so? This is a great example. So I said earlier, BIM and the ability to prefabricate ductwork and sprinkler pipe so it becomes a lego puzzle — this is another element of pre-construction. These glazing systems came to site fully fabricated,

50:37fully sealed, as a modular unit. Absolutely. Was it challenging? When you look at it on paper it's only this big — you know, on paper it's only, depends what the scale is. When it shows up on a truck and you go, "Oh..." Well, the first thing I thought when I saw that was, okay, who was estimating this for the glazing contractors? What were they thinking per square foot for the panels for install? This kind of stuff. But then you turn to

51:10rigging experts — people who do this for a living. They're called riggers. And they take the problem — which is what is before us. Project managers is what we all do: we look at a problem and we solve the problem. We can't say we can't do it; we find a solution. And so you must get your thinking cap on — or hard hat, of course, it's a construction site. Let's put several heads in a room and let's weigh out some options,

51:40evaluate those options with risk, and go for it. Yeah, I think it's so cool. I just love those kinds of stories. There are all kinds of stories you'll hear from different job sites and how people were able to solve problems. I mean, that's a little above my thinking — I'm just lucky enough to be able to talk to people like yourself. But I love to hear how these people come and solve these problems, and

52:10the fact that, being that innovative to create a new installation method with a new forklift and the gear to get it installed — it's pretty incredible. The word "can't" doesn't happen on a construction site. Don't tell me what you can't do; tell me what you can do. What about the floors in this building — radiant floors? Yes. What happens is you install some tubing

52:44before you pour the concrete, the slab of what you stand on. That tubing is then filled with — sometimes it's water, sometimes it's glycol, it depends on the system. Indoors, water is okay. It circulates through the floor. And because what you're doing is heating a mass element like the concrete, the feeling of the space — your natural ambience — becomes warmer. The temperature, and

53:26it's very energy efficient and more consistent, right? The heat, less drafts, absolutely. And we're used to seeing that sort of thing in residential, but for a large school it's pretty unique. It is pretty unique. I think we could probably do an entire show on mechanical heating systems — there are pros and cons to system A versus system B. A building owner has to evaluate return on investment,

54:08building durability, maintenance costs, carbon neutral —

54:20Just to get your thoughts on — actually, first I'd like to mention New Brunswick. Does JCB have some work happening in New Brunswick as well as Newfoundland, and in a couple of different provinces, or mostly Newfoundland at this point? Right now it's Newfoundland only. We are currently speaking with a few clients — private clients — that are looking to build in the Atlantic provinces, and you'll definitely see me out your way very soon. Great. So we'll see you in

54:52Nova Scotia as well? Absolutely. That's great. What do you think about where things are headed? What excites you about the coming — we'll say the next two or three years? And what are some of the challenges? I'll put you on the spot. Well, listen, it's been 20-odd years in construction, and it's definitely a very good industry to be in. As I mentioned earlier, I'm on several different boards, and I'm on

55:29the board of the Canadian Construction Association. It's a very exciting board. There's a campaign called "Talent That's Here," and what I'm looking forward to about that campaign is that it's a younger generation that wants to get into construction. What I mean by that is — I've said this very openly and publicly to parents — if your children are expert PlayStation players or Xbox players, in other words they are very used

56:09to having the earphones on and virtually talking to someone, they have the controller in their hands — well, they have a future in construction. They absolutely do. Machinery like excavation equipment — even today that gets operated from a remote location — because mining can be very deep and very dangerous, and so it's manned-less equipment that goes down. But also, like tower cranes — tower cranes in the future will become unmanned, so that the person, the operator, doesn't have to climb the 300 feet to the top.

56:47Maybe 300 feet is an exaggeration, but you get the picture. You're more so down on the ground operating the equipment. As well as there are advancements in a lot of technologies — things like bricklayers, exoskeletons. If you're my generation and grew up watching RoboCop, well, guess what — that's going to be a real thing. An exoskeleton — in other words, the robotics behind the human — will help pick up

57:21larger items, heavier items, where the youth may not want to enter that industry — but they now

57:32And so things like that definitely excite me. Where the challenges occur — it's not a secret, it doesn't matter what industry you're in — there's a shortage of people. There's a shortage of workers at all levels: from director levels, PM levels, to superintendents, to tradespeople, to labourers. Not just in the construction industry — I think everyone will agree today that, at least as of now, there are restaurants

58:14that are lacking people, delivery companies that are lacking people, and warehousing that's lacking people. So in the construction industry, I like to discuss with my clients the ability to build into the design some modularity — whether that's modular wall construction, modular rooms, pods, or — again with the use of BIM — because it can be pre-built in a factory off-site. Off-site construction. It makes me think of factory-built or

58:55those modular partitions, and a lot of that is coming. Yeah, exactly. So you're also a member — or is it yourself or JCB as well — of the Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Association. So you're part of the Canadian Construction Association. Let me just talk for a minute about what it's like and how that benefits you as a contractor. That's a great question, I'm glad you brought that

59:24up. So first, JCB is a proud member of the Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Association, and we have been for the past two years. I'm also on the board and I'm currently the chair of the board of that association. And then because you join a local construction association,

59:48the local construction association provides that link and passageway — you become a member firm of the Canadian Construction Association. So yes, absolutely a proud member of that too. What I like about being part of this association — and I recommend it to everyone, every construction company, to become a member — is that it's strength in numbers. And sometimes people don't believe that really works. But with the quantity you have the ability to advocate for what you want.

60:33NLCA — Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Association — approximately 650 member firms. We're very proud of that. There are lots of great members; I get the chance to chat with many. And nationally, the Canadian Construction Association — with all of the local construction associations — has 20,000 member firms. Strength in numbers. All of those firms employ people. So when you go to government — whether it's the provincial government with NLCA advocacy, or the CCA to the federal government — and you present,

61:18it talks about infrastructure, it talks about shovel-worthy projects — that's a pretty powerful voice. Yeah, you're able to ride the wave of an ever-changing industry by being connected. A lot of times associations provide so much in the way of networking, and then also the day-to-day stuff that contractors need — like preparing for a healthcare job with infection control courses, or printing blueprints and drawings, and all kinds of services. So I think you're right, I'll echo that and say

62:01especially for the smaller contractors that are growing — they can probably benefit the most. For sure, absolutely. The NLCA delivers quality educational content regularly, for people to upskill, to become more knowledgeable, to become more profitable. And when I say profitable, it means that if your workers learn something new, that's actually profit for the company because they will do better.

62:43And the NLCA has a great printing service — we offer that to all the member firms at a great price. So it's important to have. And yes, I encourage anyone involved in the construction industry — whether consultant, general contractor, subcontractor, owners, insurance companies — to become member firms. It's very very important. Well, Patrick, I wish we could talk for hours. It's been really really interesting to

63:20hear about your reference to the equilateral triangle with time, scope, and money, and then to hear about your journey, and then your connections as chair of the Newfoundland and Labrador Construction Association and a member of the board with the Canadian Construction Association, all about JCB and their recent growth into Newfoundland, the office here, and obviously the such a neat project with Collège Sainte-Anne and the

63:52carbon neutral and all the neat things that happened there — just for some context on some of the big stuff that JCB is doing nationally in central Canada. And a treat for me to talk to you. Obviously, with your experience, it's not hard to tell that it's an industry you're extremely passionate about. It's always great to be able to soak up some wisdom and knowledge from people like yourself and have a meaningful conversation where

64:19people can tune in and hopefully continue snowballing into more talks. And hopefully that leads to just making small progress year to year. So thank you so much. You're very welcome. I really enjoyed being part of this. Thank you so much for inviting me, and inviting JCB into your home and giving me the opportunity to share my story. It's been great. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to

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