Interior Designer vs. Architect vs. Decorator: Who Do You Actually Need? | IDNS Board Roundtable

0:00Our team at the Atlantic Construction Podcast is excited to announce our newest partner, Luminous Labs. Luminous Labs is the leading provider of architectural visualizations for developers, homeowners, architects, and more. Luminous Labs has a team of experienced designers and visualizers using cutting-edge technology to bring your 3D renderings to life. Using these architectural visualizations will give you a sense of scale, space, and design, allowing you to make informed decisions about your projects before construction even begins. These high-end architectural visualizations are a perfect tool for presentations, marketing materials, and

0:34design reviews, allowing you to communicate your vision to stakeholders, clients, and more. We'd like to thank our co-branded partner Procore Technologies. Procore Technologies is the global leader in construction management software. We look forward to having many guests from across the country, from all different capacities, under the Procore partnership umbrella. We'd like to thank our formal partner Payzant Building Products. Payzant has a sixty-thousand-square-foot facilitation centre currently underway, as well as acquired a new location in Windsor. Lots of change and big news with Payzant, and we look

1:06forward to having them back on the podcast in the near future. Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. We're very excited to have our guests today — the Interior Designers of Nova Scotia Association. We're joined by three members today, so across the table from me is Emma Woodhull, president. We have Mireille, who's director at large, social media and awards committee, and to my left is Lori Arnold. So thank you, ladies, for joining us today. Again, all board members, and we'll be talking a lot about interior design

1:41throughout the episode, and what it means to be an interior designer, and just calm some misconceptions. There's a lot to dive into — it's a huge topic, and such a big part of so many different commercial projects, whether it's restaurants, office fit-ups — the list goes on and on. So pretty excited to dive in with you ladies today. Thanks for being here. Thank you. We'd like to start with a little bit of context and background, so maybe if you could share

2:12individually — just a short, kind of the Coles Notes version of your journey, your education, and how you got into the interior design world. Could we start with Emma, just to tell us a little bit about where you did your education and just a few of the steps into where it brought you today? Sure. I am an American, but I went to school — or college, as

2:45we would say in the States — but I went to university at Kansas State University. Wow. For interior architecture. I graduated in 2003. That was actually the last year it was a bachelor's program; the following year, for the same amount of education, it became a master's. What's that line from the movie? "You're not in Kansas anymore" — The Wizard of Oz. The Wizard of Oz! How could I not remember that? So yeah, we get that a lot. The — I was there until about 2010; I moved to Nova Scotia by chance.

3:22The 2008 recession kind of took some breath out of the industry in Kansas City, and I thought it was a good time to seek something different. Then I wound up here on a whim. I actually — why Nova Scotia? I applied to a job in a magazine, just thinking like it might be fun to visit someplace I'd never been, and I've been here ever since. And IDNS really was integral in welcoming me into the

4:06industry here and making sure that I knew what I needed and what I wanted to do. They made me a board member pretty quickly after that. So since then I think I've been the treasurer a couple of times, the secretary, the CE director. I'll be happy to give Lori my presidency following me. Awesome. Yeah. What about yourself? Yeah, so myself — you're from Toronto, correct? I'm from Toronto originally, yes. Finished high school and went into the interior design program at Sheridan College in Oakville, Ontario.

4:53I don't think I understood back then what I was getting into. It definitely was so much more than what I'd expected — in a good way. I mean, yeah, I think I was learning what interior design is in going towards the program. So yeah, started school in 2004, graduated in 2007. And you know, I got lucky at the time: my mother was a teacher and one of her students' mothers was an interior designer at a very

5:26well-known firm back then. And so I did my internship with them for three weeks, which would wrap up my interior design program at Sheridan, and then they decided to keep me on board. So that was officially my start. And they at the time were a corporate-office-focused firm, and so that's where I started in workplace, and I kind of never changed my direction. I was really passionate about workplace design from the beginning. Similar to Emma, our industry was affected by the recession in 2009 as

6:05well, so that was an interesting time. But anyway, fast forward — I spent many years in the industry, met a lot of amazing people, worked on some pretty incredible projects, and we made the move out to Nova Scotia in April 2021, and we've been here since. We said we would give it a year and evaluate. Yeah. Pretty recent, pretty recent. And love the city. That's great. Love it. Yeah, awesome. Thank you. What about yourself, Lori? You were telling us earlier you've got 44 years of experience — almost

6:43almost as an interior designer? Yeah, true — a true veteran. Well, when you love what you do, it's hard to give it up. At some point, someday I'll retire — not there yet. I grew up in London, Ontario. I remember in grade 13 looking through the catalog of different programs at different universities across Canada, and I ran across the program at the University of Manitoba. So this was 1975, 1974. And at that time it was the only four-year BA program of interior design in Canada. And I thought, well, there's

7:23some advantage to that, you know, to take something that's right at one institution. And I wanted to leave London and go somewhere and have an adventure, and whatnot. So I thought, well, I'll do it. So I spent my four years in Winnipeg, and then my first career job was in Saint John, New Brunswick. And I worked for an architectural firm, and at the time — in 1979 — this architectural firm, they're gone now, but they were over 100 years old. It was fascinating. Yeah. They had these file —

8:00you know, the drawing file drawers — right? And they had no file sharing in those days. And they had original, hand-drafted drawings from the '20s — yeah, 1920s — old church basements. Yeah. And I was just fascinated by them, just the detail of the elevations. It was quite amazing. In '75, do you remember, did you have to take hand drafting, lettering and all that kind of stuff? Yeah, yeah, even in the 2000s. Yeah. So the thing that's fascinating about hand drafting and hand sketching is it's so time-

8:45consuming. Well, it's like knife skills — your brain and your fingers are connected. Yeah, you know, you can use them. Correct. Therapy, I think. Yeah, or a chopper or something. But when you're using your brain and your hands at the same time, yes, it's like writing every thought, almost. Yeah. Anyway, at the time there were very few interior designers in New Brunswick, so not enough at the time to — they have a New Brunswick Housing Association; I don't know when the inception was, but at the time there were very few of us in New

9:20Brunswick. Were you one of several interior designers at this architecture firm? There were two of us. Okay, yeah. So Interior Designers of Nova Scotia invited us to join their association. Makes sense — consolidate the pool. Yeah. So I think it was before — now we have our association has non-resident registered members, but at that time it wasn't quite that formal. It was just an invitation to join another association. So that's my journey — a little piece of it. Yes, yes — the first five years of it, maybe. Yes. The first

10:02— no, thank you. Thank you. It's important to give context to our listeners, and just, you know, the educational backgrounds, and just — it's good for perspective. Everybody has a different way into the industry and into their profession, so yeah, thank you for sharing that. And maybe before we dive into some layered topics on interior design — we kind of hit a milestone with IDNS, Interior Designers of Nova Scotia, recently with the recent awards — not awards ceremony, but

10:34Awards Gala. You were giving out many different awards; you had attendance of over 200 professionals across the province. The categories for the awards were anything from interior design of restaurant spaces, office workplaces, and the list goes on. Can you tell us just a little bit about how it went, for the first one, and what it meant to the association and what it means to the profession in the province? Yeah, it was in fact a huge milestone for us.

11:07We spent the better part of eight months planning for it. We had a committee dedicated to it, and it wasn't just planning the physical gala itself — it was planning the whole process of project submissions: what were the things going to be, you know, what were the criteria, how were they going to be graded, who were the judges. The first three months of the committee's focus was on building the program. Okay, what does that package look — getting all the details pulled together. And that was officially

11:41released to all of our associations across the Atlantic coast. So it does include beyond Nova Scotia — you know, Nova Scotia, PEI, Newfoundland, and New Brunswick. So all four provinces had the ability to submit projects that they felt were maybe worth putting forward for an award in different categories. Once that component was sorted and done, we jumped into the planning of the gala, and we had an amazing support system along the way. And yeah, it was amazing. I mean, I think the goal for the

12:18AIDA — and I think what we'd aimed for for a long time — was celebrating great design from coast to coast. And these are galas that take place in other provinces as well, but it was the first time here. And it was really just about celebrating good design and bringing our community of people together. And it's beyond just interior designers — it's the landlords we work with, it's the brokers — I was just going to ask — there's a lot of clients. I mean, it's everyone, you know. So

12:47this could be restaurant owners, it could be law firms — anyone in any kind of interior space that offers a product or service. A lot of designers brought their clients, right? Like if they had winning projects, it's like, let's bring the clients and celebrate the project. Contractors too, exactly. So it's amazing because when you look at our industry, it touches on so many different areas. And so this is a place to bring them all together, but also at the same time ensure that the focus is on interior

13:15design and the celebration of good design. So we had three award levels: we had an Award of Merit, an Award of Excellence, and then Project of the Year. And Project of the Year was selected based on the highest-scoring project. There were very detailed criteria developed around how these projects would get graded. All of the projects submitted were completely confidential — no names, no firms; you didn't know any history of it other than the project itself. And the categories, as you mentioned,

13:50touch on everything: hospitality, restaurant, workplace, residential, healthcare, education. So for our first year, I think we did pretty amazing — we handed out 13 awards and the feedback was really great. And Emma did an opening speech that night as the president. All I had to do was thank everybody who did all the hard work. But I think it's just the beginning of something really amazing and we're so excited to continue growing this. And I think now that people have had exposure to what this event is and

14:24what's celebrated, we expect that it's only going to grow. Yeah. Lori, you must have some thoughts on it as well, with your role with IDNS and your long career in the industry — to see that Awards Gala come to life. What did it mean to you? Yeah. And there have been award ceremonies in other — you'd better have won an award; we don't have to talk about it, but yeah, I'm gonna check into that — parts of Canada. For instance, Toronto,

14:56ARIDO and Toronto. And now so it's really a milestone here. And it's wonderful because in the past we could have been part of award ceremonies — Interior Designers of Canada has ARIDO Awards, and we could have entered those awards. But it's nice to bring it home and have something in Atlantic Canada to celebrate. For sure. Any thoughts, Emma, for yourself on the event? And I'm just — except the greatest part is that it is not just Nova Scotia, but we're bringing in other associates, like New

15:30Brunswick just got their practice act put together, a little more recently than IDNS has. So they — would you have worked together with them on that Practice Act and shared? We definitely — yeah, with them, yes. They looked at our act as a bit of model legislation, along with others, and we definitely helped them where they wanted it. But to be able to help them on their journey and be more of a community out here — like we say, past Toronto there's no

16:11— I always use the analogy: you know, we all have to stick together in the Eastern provinces, in the East Coast and the Maritimes, because we are just one province to everyone west of Toronto. It kind of gives you a bigger pool of projects as well. I feel like if we just did Nova Scotia, or you know, if New Brunswick or even PEI — who is even smaller — you know, there might be only two submissions for the whole year. So it helps make that pool

16:43a little more — large, so that when you do win an award you don't feel like it's just because you were the only one that submitted. Yeah. So I think it worked out really well. And the model is such that we can pass it between the provinces if we want to, so — looking at maybe rotating it by year. We're still looking into that, but there's a lot to have learned this year, I would say. But I think we're gonna get bigger

17:13and better every year. Amazing. It would be exciting. Amazing. And yeah, I'm excited. We had lots of pre-podcast discussions about interior design, and just the extent of being an interior designer as lead consultant on so many of these projects in ICI construction and fit-ups and anything inside the building envelope. And I'm learning a lot personally, and I'm thinking of people tuning in, whether they're contractors, interiors companies, millwork — you know, different trades that are tackling

17:46some of these large interior spaces, whether it be major retail spaces in some of the malls, shopping centres throughout Nova Scotia, or law firms moving into — just behind us here at the Queen's Marque, you know — some different, just all kinds of things. So we're going to talk a lot about just, to start: what is an interior designer? And I think, Mireille, you wanted to maybe give us — I feel like we can all talk about that. Yeah, we can all probably add to it, so

18:20you know, as we kind of discussed at the beginning, the education is the first part of becoming an interior designer. And we are going to get into a little bit more detail through this conversation as to — okay, no two interior design programs are built the same, and so which ones are the ones that we need to be taking if we want to pursue the profession. So yeah, four-year degree programs, and then you have the ability to go for a master's.

18:51There is a third-party association called CIDA, who basically — it's a North American association — they certify schools, educators. And so our Act calls out CIDA-accredited degrees for being a member of IDNS, just because it's the main regulator in North America for overseeing education. So it didn't used to always be — for years, I don't know that it is necessarily just four years, but it does have to be a CIDA-accredited degree. And if it's not, there are third-party reviews that can be done

19:42to kind of assess it. But that is the first thing: get your education. And then once you do that, there are some internship hours that need to happen, in specific — it's good to see it used to just be like so many years of internship, but now there are specific amounts of hours in certain areas, like contract administration, design governance and regulation, things like that. Not unlike an engineer's journey before they're able to stamp drawings — having enough hours and years under the

20:20belt to do so. I was thinking — maybe a silly question some people might be thinking, who are outside of the profession — if it's a four-year degree to have a degree in interior design, can you also take a route of, you know, taking four years of architecture school and then majoring in interior design? And then if you do major in interior design, or if you do take four years, do you have to pick — you know, am I a workplace interior designer, am I a healthcare interior

20:50designer, do you specialize? Or not necessarily? Okay. That — but from a 30,000-foot view, if you're comparing interior design to — let's say an architect, which can mean many things, right? You mentioned contract administration, tendering, processing change orders. You know, maybe an architect in Europe is designing buildings all the time that are extravagant, but being an architect on the east coast of Canada is a lot of paperwork and maybe no design in some regards. But just for context:

21:31you're going to specialize in something, because nobody can be an expert in everything. So interior design is everything inside the building envelope on the architectural side. Does that kind of sum it up?

21:46Section 9 of the building code — yeah, it's well section 6 and section 9. I think we do a lot of work in — we go into other sections, right? Because those are the architectural components. If you know the divisions, master spec, that kind of thing — I don't know if the general public would know that, but yeah. Millwork, finishes, interior finishes, and then you get into architectural specialties and furniture and furnishings in Division 12, and things like that. Obviously Division 1, Division 3, where you need, but

22:22we are heavy-handed in 6 and 9. Yeah. And it's true in a way: like, once a building is closed in — a lot of times, like you mentioned, tenant fit-ups. GCs were at your gala, right? Clients of yours? Well, once a lot of commercial buildings are put up, they're divided by the landlord into various bays and spaces for different retail, or healthcare, or tenants. And then once that's — it's a different process having the shell there with all the building envelope components, right? That

22:55takes on a whole — that's a whole new form of construction. It does. And I'd almost say that coming out of school you're still very much in the education lane. You know, the area of practice that you choose, whether it's workplace or whatever — it's completely different. Yeah, a completely different base of knowledge. So what you're doing in workplace will not apply to a restaurant, will not apply to a hotel. So you kind of — and I think that's where the experience

23:30comes in. As young designers, I always encourage young designers that I'm mentoring: you've got to try a few things before you decide what focus you want to take, what sector of design. Because you know, I got into workplace and I loved it — I really loved it — and so that was me. But it's not always the case. Some people might say, oh, I'm gonna go and try out hospitality for a

23:53while. It's important to do it early in your career, when you're still learning, absorbing, and still very much in that part of your career. And then you eventually evolve, right? Plus, if you or your firm have only worked on, say, interior spaces for the food and entertainment industry, or something, and then all of a sudden Deloitte's putting an office on the 15th floor — if you might — well, one, you might not get the RFP because you don't have

24:21the history. But it might not be something you want to just step into blindly. But sometimes there are opportunities where you're partnered with other firms, and there's a sharing — there's a lead architect and you're a combined consultant with them. Yeah. Over the years, you know, every once in a while you get a project where the designers are in Toronto and they have a certain expertise. Quite often they need feet on the ground, and it's kind of shared knowledge, and then you start to develop

24:49some. So in those cases, would those be architecture firms or interior design firms? Generally interior design, yeah, because a lot of interior designers do work at architecture firms. Any major architecture firm would have that division — not all, not all. No. And those — if there isn't a design department, it's typically like an interiors-focused department within an architectural firm. So yes, they're going to support architects on their projects, but they may also have projects that are interior-only — the architects won't even be

25:24involved. So it's bringing two professions together really, right? And that clarifies the difference a little bit too — the statement you just made — between an architect and interior design, which a lot of people's minds would go to, whether they're in the industry or they're just not familiar with making that distinction. I mean, retail contractors would know, right? They're working closely with you as a lead consultant for the client, and you're coming to them with the

25:54floor plans and the interior elevations and the whole design of the job. And then they're taking it to pre-construction and tender and assisting with tendering — but you're assisting with tendering too. Oh yeah, contract documents. And then you're all the way through with the client as a kind of facilitator between the client and then the general contractor or construction manager, whoever's managing the construction side. Exactly. Like, I think that often there's a lot of emphasis placed on the part where we're designing, and yes that is part of what we do, but there

26:26is so much that comes before that. And I feel like that's what needs to be communicated more — like, we have three years of planning.

26:36That's five percent of what we do. And you know, that could be stressful depending on what you love doing and part of the process. But you know, there is — like, you watch those design shows and I'm often like, I'm sure they're doing it in the background, but they're just kind of diving right into: we're gonna do this renovation, here's the space, right? And it's all done in two days. It's all done in two days. So you know, in reality it takes like six months;

26:58they just show it in two days. Exactly, yeah. They speed up the video. I can do that! Oh my God. So in a way you kind of lose a little bit of — okay, there's a part where you need to get to know the client: who are they, what's their personality, what's their culture, what are they looking to achieve — all these things, before you even put pen to paper. And then it's programming: it's sorting out what types of spaces

27:22they need, what's dedicated, what's shared, all sorts of amenities. Like, we're going through a pretty detailed process, not to mention building products, specs, and there's some research. Oh yeah, for sure. Yeah. The technical side is daunting. Oh yeah. The drawings, the whole contract administration and project management — once it goes into construction — could make or break a project. Yes. So that's almost the most important part at the end as well. Elaborate on that a little bit, because I think that's so important — just making sure that you,

27:56as prime consultant, when you are a prime consultant, have the knowledge and resources to understand the details that were drawn. And when the GC has a — it's Halifax, right? We're always building; something's going to come up. So having the resource to make those decisions and change directions where you need to do so. Even value engineering comes up quite a bit these days. Or, you know, drywall isn't going to be here for two weeks — what do we do?

28:35And really, in the process of specifying materials and finishes as well, we have to be cognizant of what's this going to do to my schedule. I love this nine-foot door, but is it going to come in in six weeks or is it going to come in 24 weeks, you know what I mean? So I mean, we could design you the world, but we also have to look at what's realistic within the project parameters as well. Yeah. And those, as you know, on the project management

29:05side — it's a very key milestone to have doors open when the client needs them to be, whether it's seasonal for services and products that they're selling, or — yeah, a few weeks on the schedule is a big deal. And that's really where, going back to education as just the start of becoming an interior designer, internship really comes into play. A lot of that is the School of Hard Knocks — learning on the job. You don't really get that in school so much. True. And then

29:39once you get all of that education and on-the-job education, we also have an exam that you have to pass in order to become fully registered as an interior designer. So all the experience is meant to be — and is required to be — with a registered interior designer. So no one's getting out of school and practicing with somebody who isn't registered with IDNS. That's part of the Act, right? That's part of the yeah. And the exam is something that's designated and designed

30:13by IDNS and the board members as well. It is CIDQ — they used to be NCIDQ, another kind of national — it is a U.S./North American organization, and they write the exam. So most of the U.S. and Canada — there are a few exceptions amongst provinces — use CIDA and CIDQ as the exam. There are some French language issues that come up across a few provinces that I think on a national level IDC and some other organizations are trying to work

30:55out. But for the most part, that is the most well-known exam. So you typically write that — you spend about 3,250 hours; that's the amount of hours you need to have under your belt. And as Emma was saying, different — under different parts, exactly. And then you study to write the exams in three sections. If you pass successfully, then you are officially considered an interior designer. We'd like to welcome our newest partner here at AC Media, the Freeman Group. Freeman Group Financial works closely with business owners,

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32:34the CIDQ and have all your experience. Exactly. So what about the difference between interior decorators and interior — let me break that down. They do have their own association as well, so that's just a different professional practice than ours. I think — I can't really speak for them; I can only speak to what's included with us — is that: are they more like furniture and other things that are outside of the actual components? We're the ones that will stamp permit drawings. So anything in Part

33:083 of the building code — anything above and beyond a Part 9 building or a small dwelling — would require a stamped permit and would need to be under an architect or an interior designer. That's interesting. So I feel like a lot of people take a lot of pride in their skills at interior design when it comes to their own property or their own homes and things like that. And certainly it's a passion or hobby for those

33:39people. But just to see the extensive specialty of this profession — especially within the commercial construction industry — there's so much more going on than someone might think if they're outside the profession. Yeah, right. There is a lot of crossover, just like there's crossover between what architects and interior designers do. There's a bit of crossover between what we do and what they do, and I think that would be the biggest misconception within the industry. Yeah. What is the difference, or why? Yeah,

34:09no, it's just getting to know your project and what your project needs, and making sure you have the right consultants on the team to do the project, basically. Right? Because, you know, for interior projects — let's say major interior projects — would there be architects bidding on the same RFP as an interior design firm? No, if that's something that they were pursuing for business reasons or because it was a client they worked with before on other projects, and this happened to be just a large interior

34:49space? So you do bid against architects? Yeah. So you are — on interior projects, right — it could be an architect or an interior designer involved, playing the same role really. Once it's past the RFP, once the RFP is out and then you are the lead consultant, you're basically functioning as the same entity as far as the client's concerned. It depends what you want out of your project. I think it's important to recognize the difference in education, but a lot

35:20of clients might not know that easily. Exactly. Yeah. We are trained and educated to think from an interiors perspective: the functionalities, how spaces are used, what's needed. So a lot of our education is focused on the interior, the human element as well, and making sure how humans will interact with the space. So when you say that, do you mean in terms of — like, an interior designer is going to have more database and layered knowledge when it comes to different

35:59lighting systems, or a catalog of different assemblies or ceiling assemblies that can be used in similar types of spaces — that save room and space for a nine-foot door, or a wall that's thinner so we can make this room a little bit larger and keep the door swing and change the middle — so it's just more that you're more specialized and central to the interiors, whereas you're not incorporating all the other elements that maybe an architecture firm would outside

36:28of interior? Yeah. It's tough — like, you never want to compare. And that's not what we're here for. There's no comparison. I think we all have our specialties. And as an architect, if you're comfortable doing interiors, then you're comfortable doing interiors, and ultimately your work and your portfolio will speak to that. And what I know — what we can say confidently — is that as designers, yes, we are specialized. We spend time studying and learning the

36:55interiors. It's not to say that an architect can't do that. So I think it's just — for sure. Yeah. And it's nothing different in the fact that, yeah, an architect might be comfortable doing lots of interior spaces and they have lots of interior designers on staff. But when it comes to the structural components of the interior space — like a mezzanine, or anything like that — both an interior designer and an architect are going to have to outsource or combine, you know, an engineering firm, and get them involved to handle that part.

37:22Right. So it's not like you're competing with them either, right? It's just — yeah, it's all part of it. What about some info on members of IDNS — membership tiers, what it means to be a member? You've already mentioned the exam and each individual has to do that. And all firms that are carrying out interior design work as a profession are obviously under the Act. But what are some other benefits for the members?

37:58Well, being able to legally practice in the province. But I don't know — Lori might be able to speak more to this as well. But is there mixers? Is there educational? We do try to — that is another component of keeping up your membership: actually carrying liability insurance, and keeping up on CEUs. We have to have 10 a year — health, safety, and welfare. They are much easier to gain online these days. But we do try to, when we do have general membership meetings, to bring

38:31that resource to our members as well. But you're protecting the clients by doing all this too, right? That's part of the whole — yeah. And our vendors — the local vendor community, finishes vendors and things like that — love to show us their products, and in an association they'll give us some education credits as we go. But I found in the past few years, even, our membership has grown. We have a dedicated registrar who is in charge of reviewing all

39:07membership applications and vetting them. And even we have to send her our credits every year to make sure that we're still compliant and things like that. But since COVID — I mean, Mireille is a good example — we've had a lot of people coming from other provinces to our province, so I've seen our membership grow within the last couple of years. And even our non-resident registered members membership has grown as well. So there are definitely other interior designers in Canada working in the province these days. But we've — I

39:45think, at least for the 10 to 15 years that I've been in Nova Scotia, we've hovered around 40 to 50 members, and that hasn't really changed too much in the past few years. You mentioned different governing bodies, and Division 6 and 9 in the spec, and you were talking earlier about MasterFormat when it comes to millwork. And I'm thinking of the building code and different things you're subject to as an interior designer — maybe more so than an architect in different

40:21parts of the building. Are there other things, other than MasterFormat or certain parts of the building code, that you're not just educating yourself on but referring to? Some other examples you can give? CSA B651 — it is the alternate to 3.8, but the accessibility requirements are a big one. And I think Nova Scotia is kind of getting there on accessibility, but not quite there yet. So there's even an association called the Rick Hansen Foundation that's across the country that is almost like LEED for

40:59accessibility. So there's all kinds of — I guess, better-than-spec things you could do. For sustainability you could do LEED, well, Green Globes, and then there's Rick Hansen for accessibility. It's a little bit more human-centric. Yeah. Well, I know accessibility has come up — we've had other architects on the podcast throughout Atlantic Canada and central Canada — when talking about a lot of the dollars that are spent on low-income housing, or different seniors' homes and stuff

41:38like that, where the specs were kind of a lot of bare minimum, and should have been better — better living quality, better designed for higher living quality for these individuals who are moving into these homes — whether it's wheelchair ramps or washroom design specs and all kinds of different things. Right. It seems there's a lot to do. Is there progress being made? Is it more stringent now with a lot of interior spaces too? Well, that was a really good way to put it. I mean, like I

42:12think in that specific example — you know, I think if you give people the pride in their space, they'll act differently, they'll treat it differently, and they'll live in it differently, right? And so I think a lot needs to be done there. What are we investing? What are we putting — for example in low-income housing — are we making it a place where people feel proud and feel good about being there? Or is it being forgotten? So that's something we're working with.

42:48A consultant in general can bring to the table: here's what your minimum building code is. And there are definitely landlords that will only want to pay for the minimum. But if you can convince them that it is a worthwhile thing to do — to do greater than the minimum code — then it's a good thing for everyone. But there are private sector clients who are on board with some of these programs. You know, they don't want to just do the building code — they want to do Rick

43:21Hansen, and they want it right — they make the choice to incorporate it into their projects. Yes, for them as well. Some don't, because Rick Hansen — it's not mandatory for any reason, right? It's just a good thing to do. Yes. Is there any examples you can give of trends right now, or recent years, or where things are headed? When I think of the topic of lighting, we've had different distributors scheduled to be on the podcast covering all kinds of different

43:55lighting — it's kind of its own arena, whether it's LED or different types. Or you have a lot of office spaces or interior spaces that are fully enclosed by a curtain wall and there's lots of natural light. What are some of the things that you think about with different kinds of — just some practical examples for our listeners? It's not too broad a question. Yeah. I mean, I think we could tell some planning practices for sure, and how those

44:28have evolved even since the pandemic, how things have changed. I mean, everyone heard the topic of: what's going to happen to the office, and what is it supposed to be, and how are we going to bring people back? And so some of the things that I think are important to focus on is what will bring people back — what will be worth that commute. If they're coming in, a lot of people now know, like, hey, I can work from home, I can get my focus time, I can be

44:54alone. So what did we miss during the pandemic? It was people. So it's designing for social connection. It's designing for a variety of spaces that you can't necessarily get when you're working from home. Okay, you can get your heads-down work at home, but what about spaces where you can better come together as a team? Or you can come in because you want a social day and you want to see people. So I think there's greater emphasis now on choice. Like, if you're gonna try

45:23to bring someone in and say, you've got to sit at this workstation all day, that's not going to bring someone back. But if you can say, like, hey, you're going to come in and depending on what your day looks like — you have an eight-hour day, you may be doing three different types of tasks that require different types of spaces and focus — I think variety and choice is a huge attraction for how we bring people back, because people need to feel that. So can you give

45:48examples of that? Like, is it just more of the layout of the office space, and then maybe, you know, there's no partition here or it's glass-enclosed with a boardroom table, or stand-up desks here, and how people are kind of working at their station but they're working together? Like, yeah. I think, like, in the past — even 10 or 15 years ago when I started in the design industry — it was all about cubicles and private offices. And that was very

46:14formal meeting rooms. And the offices were all on the exterior. When they were all on the exterior, no access to natural light unless you had an office. The best views were reserved for the people that were in offices. You fast forward to today — if you're designing a progressive space, you are designing a space where the majority of the build-out is on the interior of a floor plate. Therefore everyone has equal access to views and to natural light. When I say variety of spaces, it can be spaces that

46:45are meant for a single person — a phone room where you can take your laptop in, you can have that virtual call, you're alone. It can be a meeting room for four. The ancillary furniture is a huge component too — not every meeting room needs to have a table and four chairs to be a meeting room. It can be — it's what are you trying to encourage in that room? Is it going to be a lounge chair and a low-top table and some different pieces? Different spaces, different layouts will

47:13have you thinking differently and working differently. So I think it's very much driven by what you want to happen in those spaces. There's a whole change management component with that as well — the decision makers out of their comfort zone: "This is the office that we've had for the past 20 years, we're gonna change to this type of —"

47:36Yeah, it's really a business decision, it's not furniture-driven. Yeah. There's furniture out there — and that's the thing: when I think of furniture, I think of companies like Office Interiors and different — you know, where it's such a big part and a big cost to a lot of these workplaces that you'll see in the city. But that's just one component of an interior designer's job as lead consultant on your design of the whole space, right? Yeah. And the furniture

48:09is going to support part of the solution. The solution. What I was thinking of earlier was when you were talking —

48:21I always think of mental health. When you were talking about designing in a certain way — you know, in the past I've worked in an office with a really good window view downtown Halifax, and like, I could think clearly. I don't know if people listening can relate, but like, it was a nice day, I was right next to the window, and I was able to just take a second — roll back my chair, look out the window, and think, you know, process whatever. Or

48:48being stuck looking at a blank wall or nothing — it did make a big difference for me, like a noticeable difference. Is that something you guys think about when you're designing? Like thinking about people's mental health and their well-being in that way? Yeah, yeah, constantly. Control the light. Yeah, if you don't have — I think that's the biggest component in any environment. Yes, if you don't have good lighting, you've done it all for naught. You know, when referring to natural light and

49:24artificial lighting — if it's a terrible quality of light, if there are different colour temperatures, even — yeah, it can give you headaches, strain your eyes. Yeah, these things are a big deal. Not something that, if you're not in the arena of architecture and interior design specifically — and you're involved in these buildings — maybe you don't think about those things as much. And I'm thinking of, in the context of who's listening to our media channels,

49:54whether they're a contractor in concrete, or — well, maybe it's flooring or painting — you're there in the interior space. But, you know, thinking about the reasons why things are the way they are, right? With the lighting and with the layout and all that kind of stuff — and the thought that goes in, and how people are going to interact. It's actually thinking about all kinds of things: their mental health, their eyes, avoiding headaches, all that kind of stuff. You don't

50:19always think about that. You do in your profession, but other people involved — not as much. That's true. It's almost like at the end of the day it's just how you feel. I don't know how else to describe it. And for every person who goes into an interior space, it's just about how you feel once you sit in that space. Is it a good feeling? Is it really — you know, a lot of it is also designing for an experience. A social experience may be very different

50:45than an experience that requires focus. So it's having the understanding and learning enough about the clients we're working with to say, you know, what do you guys need to support your — from the moment you step into that office to the moment you leave? What does your day look like? And also acknowledging that different departments and different groups of people will have different needs. Just because one needs this doesn't mean the other does. And so it's learning about that entire circle and being very inclusive about who we speak

51:14to. We don't want to just speak to the C-suite — their experience is very different from the end users and their employees who are there doing the work on a day-to-day basis. So it's important to speak to everyone. And that's just workplace design — that's just work. You're going to think about healthcare design and patient mentality, exactly, education design — nurses and how they interact — how children are being educated in a school every day. Even to a retail experience: how are you finding your product on a shelf? Or how are you enjoying

51:49your stay in a hotel, you know what I mean? It's so many different professions that you're impacting. I think — maybe a safe statement — like, most lawyers are left-brained, you know, as far as the temperament that might make up such a driven career choice, working 80 hours a week. But then if they're working in a certain environment that was designed to its optimum capacity so that they could be the healthiest, think the clearest, and be more efficient — and

52:20instead of walking through a place that was just really poorly designed — you know, 30% more productive, they're healthier. But they're not necessarily thinking of the interior designer, right? But you've done your job — even though I'm thinking of it now, you've impacted those people. Now they're interacting with the space. It's the old saying: you know, everyone's so busy, like they're not thinking of you, right? But you have made an impact on that business and those people. Sometimes you don't even notice it unless you're

52:46somewhere where it wasn't thought about, I guess. And you can — I always think, I'm probably aging myself, but the movie Being John Malkovich, where they have office floors where you can barely put your head up against the ceiling, and there's awful fluorescent lighting that's flickering the whole time — that's when people are going to really notice that this isn't what we want. Yeah. When it's like a tree fort I built in my parents' backyard — yes, it wasn't designed very well. Anyway, sorry. But sometimes I think people

53:23not noticing how comfortable they are is the biggest compliment. So true. Yes. When there's a lot you've done, your job's done so well nobody noticed. Yeah, it's just comfortable. I was thinking of your relationship with — as lead consultant for these interior spaces, be it under any classification, like you mentioned: healthcare, education, so many different ones, workplace. When you're working with — you obviously build relationships with construction firms as CM or GC, and you're like an architect, one on

54:05a public full build or something. But do you also have — in your kind of — I'm thinking from a contractor's standpoint: if I was a custom millwork shop, I'd want to be in touch with interior designers, and you know, what's trending, and talking about our past projects and certain services. And even interiors companies when it comes to drywall and suspended ceilings and those kinds of things — are you in contact with subcontractors too, a lot? Or are they asking you questions? Or do they communicate with

54:41you at all? A lot of times on a project they might not — it might not be formal for them to do so. They're under the GC, right? And you're between the GC and the client, so there's a certain structure in place. But is there any kind of relationship that interior design firms would have with some subcontractors depending on the project? And sometimes the general contractors are quite happy to have the millwork contractor contact you directly — not during the tendering process or anything like that, right? But

55:09certainly afterwards, for you to work out the details with them. It's sharing information. But sometimes general contractors understand that if they're translating those questions, they're translating them to you regardless, right? So sometimes it's better if there's a direct line. And that's happening a lot of times in the tender process as an RFI formally, and then an alteration is made on the plans — an addendum to the bid — and whatnot. But after that too, even throughout a project, if it's a really intense

55:44millwork or interior space — then there's all kinds of — you respect their craft at that stage. Like, I love — for me, I'm like, please tell me: once we get to site and things are starting to get built, they may come to you. And of course the GC is always going to be aware and they're going to be present, but it's so good to hear from the people who are building. They might say, "Okay, Mireille, you showed something

56:09this way, but you know what, if you do it this way it might actually be — whatever it is — better, it might turn out you know, you might get a better result." Yeah. So I think it's so important — the way people look to us for our expertise and our knowledge — that once things are in construction, say we run into a site condition or there's something, we're having those conversations together. Yeah, that's great. And yeah, exactly. And I'm thinking about specific things where, like, you know, a

56:39lot of finishes are really specific to different projects. Like, a lot of times they're owner-supplied, right? Like, let's say, for listeners outside the industry: if you're doing Tim Hortons or a chain of restaurants, like The Keg — they have their own wall paneling, their own wall coverings, their own ceiling tiles, their own products that are very specific. And so a lot of times those are owner-supplied and the installer is going to have to install them. They're wondering how to price it,

57:08and so you run into a lot of that too, right? Where you're facilitating between supply and labor, and a lot of these materials are really high-end — it's not just two dollars a square foot, right? It's 30, 100, 200 dollars. And sometimes there are minimum orders and you don't need a few cubic yards but you've got to order a hundred, you know? And it's all going to be — so you've got to allow that in your cost. It takes a lot of communication to get these things

57:34done. And logistics-wise, to have it ordered and on-site at the right time for installation. You never want any assumptions made — let's put it that way — on any end. You know, just ask the question if you need to. And there's — sometimes we do miss things, and we're like, okay, well we have to order a whole thing of this, and what do we do? So we're troubleshooting. We're constantly looking for solutions where

57:59there might be challenges. And communication is the biggest thing, I think, in our industry, especially when it comes to construction. It's like, I don't care, just call me if you have a question — don't make an assumption, just ring me and let's talk about it. And I'm always coming at things from the mentality of someone on the construction end, or as a PM or an estimator or a contractor, just because that's part of my journey in the industry. And I

58:27remember thinking earlier, just before the episode: a lot of times, as soon as I hear "interior design," I always think of the ID drawings that are included in the drawing set with the architectural floor plans or whatnot. And how, when you're pricing, it's always better — or you feel less at risk — when you can see the ID drawings too. And some sets wouldn't have them, you know, when they should, or they weren't ready for that yet, or it wasn't quite done, and they wouldn't release them with

58:52the tender. And that was kind of how I distinguished between interior design and architecture: there's definitely lots of overlap, but it's just way more detailed and you can see different things that you can't on the architectural drawings. So that was kind of — yeah, some of our listeners would think that right away, probably a lot of estimators or PMs. What about, for the association, just a little bit on the vision for growth — kind of where things are headed, or even the profession here in the province?

59:29Any thoughts on the future and vision and growth? It's a great career in Nova Scotia and has been for — and people can be educated in that profession here in Nova Scotia in different ways, right? I mean, Dalhousie, SMU — do they have it? Not for a CIDA-accredited program. So you can get an interior design degree that's CIDA-accredited. And what about like, if someone took two years at an NSCC for an architectural school? We'll evaluate, and we may say, okay, some of your credits can go towards something, but it's never going to be

60:16like it's going to replace an entire year or two years, but they might take some of your credits and say, okay, sure, these are the aligned ones, right? So there have been a few members that graduated as technologists, worked in the field as a technologist, and decided they wanted this career path, so they did the Yorkville University online program and achieved it that way. I think I interrupted you — you were saying how it's a great career path. And before we dived in — well, I think we've been very

60:45fortunate in Nova Scotia. It's a great profession and we've been busy. The construction industry has been very busy. Yes. And labour shortage is affecting your profession as it is everyone else's, I'm sure. Yeah, it is. And one thing — someone who's here more recently — I was quite excited when I first got here that the industry has so much room, which is very exciting. There's a lot of work to go around. There are a lot of amazing designers that are here already. I think

61:20our biggest initiative — one of the things that we've talked about — is how do we bring people back after they've studied? So we're thinking about younger, upcoming generations. I think that's where there's a lot more emphasis and importance that we want to give, which is — yes, the reality is, you do have to leave Nova Scotia and the east coast to go get an interior design education, right. You can't do it online — well, you can, but a lot of students don't. Yeah, it is. And I would rather not —

61:47or else would rather know it's — it's a long time. You know, the best way to learn — exactly, exactly. And it is a program where being in a classroom, having studio time — it's a huge thing in the learning process. You're a junior, all-nighters and stuff — it's going to help you when you're in the workforce, collaborating with other people, hands-on. Yeah. So one of the things we did do is: this year we launched our first scholarship program.

62:14And we opened it up to Nova Scotian students who were preparing to study in the interior design industry. And it was a scholarship towards their — and now we're going to actually widen it to say: if you are a Nova Scotian student already studying in an interior design program, you can apply for this scholarship. There's an essay and a write-up. But I think it's making sure we're making those connections with these students early on enough and having that relationship to say, like, you

62:47know, we hope you come back. Like, you know, it's growing — the city is growing. I mean, we all see it in our different sectors. There is a lot happening here and it's very exciting. And so I think bringing people back would be really nice. Yeah, I feel bad, not being a Nova Scotian myself, but I do feel like we have to give all of our talents away, and you know, young students go to Toronto or someplace like that and get a big city experience. We

63:20want to be able to have something to entice them to come back. No, I think eventually a lot of people find their way back anyway. But to have an incentive — I think this scholarship program as well educates high school students at that level, and university students, about what an interior designer is and if that's a career path for them. Sometimes they don't even necessarily know what is entailed in that career and profession, or they might choose architecture because they're not aware

63:58of exactly what it means. But I think we have also done internship programs here in town, where we invite high school students to local offices so that they can work with us for a day and understand what exactly it is that we do all day. And know that it's not just making nice little color boards and things like that — we definitely want to show them the fun stuff too — but to get a better experience of what the

64:28profession is. It leads them in a direction knowing that they're doing the right thing for what they want in the end, if that makes sense. Yeah. And you know, we always get asked from different colleges and universities across Canada: are you willing to volunteer, can you mentor? Generally it's third or fourth year students that are going into their thesis. You know, you'll spend an entire year with these students, basically guiding them and assisting them and getting through their thesis. And that's just another great point of

65:02connection — you're building a relationship with a student. And we do have a student membership category in our association as well, which is a great way to introduce yourself to the members at large and kind of get an idea of what the practice in Nova Scotia is like. Yeah. Any final thoughts? Anything that — I'm sure we could continue for quite some time, but I think we covered a lot of ground. And I know there's lots of — personally

65:34for me and our team here at the Atlantic Construction Podcast and media — that lots of the connections and colleagues and industry members that we know, who are builders and contractors and involved with a lot of these interior spaces, the interior designer is one of the top priority relationships that they have and speak highly of. And it's such an important one for them, along with the front-facing client too. So it's great to get some context with the

66:01ladies today, and thank you for joining us. Really enjoyed this conversation. Hope — my questions — thanks for having me. Thank you. Yeah, it's been great. Cheers. We'd like to thank our long-time sponsor Cooke Insurance. Cooke is your trusted insurance broker in Atlantic Canada for 50 years. The Cooke team opens up opportunities for contractors by proactively managing the requirements of their bond facility. They expand levels of support and negotiate preferred rates, all while prioritizing ease of doing business. A Navacord partner since 2020,

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