Inside Pomerleau: P3 Construction, BIM Innovation, and Building Culture in Atlantic Canada

0:03All right, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. We have with us today Pomerleau. We have Lorin — Lorin Robar — we have Ashwin Rajendran, and Emily Surette. Thanks for being here, guys. Great — great to have you guys here. Maybe we'll just get started. Lorin, you know, you're local here from Nova Scotia and a UNB grad, and you started your journey with Pomerleau in 2004 or '05 — I think that was one of the first jobs that Pomerleau did.

0:42I think we can see one of the jobs out the window here, apparently. But yeah, so maybe just take us back to your first job and sort of where the ball started for you with Pomerleau. Yeah, so I actually started in 2006, but just kind of three years after Pomerleau had established an office here on a permanent basis. We've been active here since the late '90s with some civil-related projects with

1:09our MRDC on the P3 highway in New Brunswick and some JVs with Cardinal, which went to Rideau, which is now Bird. So we've been here for a while. But okay, so I was wrong when I said that was the first job — you guys have been here since the '90s. We've been here in some form — we've been here since actually, we've been here in some form since the '70s. Our first project in Canada was actually the Dominion in

1:35Wow, so yeah, we've been in New Brunswick I guess since — yeah, because Pomerleau is like a 60-year-old company, right? Yeah, yeah, 1954. So second generation — it was started by Hervé Pomerleau, and now the majority owners are Pierre and Francis, the two sons and brothers, right? Yeah, yeah. So yeah, I've been with Pomerleau since 2006, started as an estimator, spent a few months there kind of learning the ropes, and then they needed a project coordinator over at the Dartmouth Wastewater Treatment Plant, so I put my hand up, got voluntold, and kind of went to site.

2:10And well, first — history for our listeners — we're sitting on Lower Water Street, so we can actually see that building across the water here. I can see the ferry and I can see that building. I really can see that building right across the water. So yeah, I point that out every time I'm downtown — yeah, just kind of show the kids and things like that. So

2:35yeah, it's a bit of a cool legacy project for myself. Yeah. And you've obviously had lots of different roles with Pomerleau — everything from project coordinator, superintendent, project manager, and estimator prior to that — and now you have a civil engineering degree from UNB. Yeah, yeah, yeah. I graduated from UNB — I'm from New Germany, which is a small place outside of Bridgewater, but yeah, I loved my time in Fredericton. Great university. Still have lots of friends there. I always look forward to going back. Yeah, it's

3:07a special place — a special place for me. Great. And so you've been Regional Manager now for Atlantic Canada for Pomerleau for the last few years? Since January of 2018. So it's been a different experience — certainly a challenge. Something different every day, which always keeps you on your toes, so certainly great. Yeah. And you guys — just for current projects — I think before we came on the air here you were talking a little bit about the regional hospital in Cape Breton

3:41and then a P3 job in Newfoundland that you guys are just finishing up now. Yeah, yeah. So we have the central long-term care facilities — they're P3s, in partnership with Fengate, so they're the sponsor, they're the project co, and we are the design-builders on that. And yeah, Cape Breton Hospital — teamed up with Lindsay. Yep. So it's been a great partnership so far. Awesome company to work with. Yeah, and

4:12yeah, it's been a great union, and we're going to be together for a little while up there, so we're super excited. What's the timeline up there? You guys are 20 months in — and then another couple of years? We'll be there probably a good seven years. Yeah, I would think. You're not going to retire on that one. Well, I'll be close when it's done — it'll be close. Yeah. So how does that work whenever you team up with another GC? Like, why — I'm sure there are obvious reasons, but

4:38maybe just tell us a little bit, when something like that happens for a large healthcare project, why you would team up with Lindsay, what they bring and what you bring, and how that kind of works. Yeah, I mean Pomerleau hasn't had a large presence in Cape Breton over the years. Certainly Lindsay is active there — they have an office. You know, they're big into healthcare, we're big into healthcare. So yeah, we started sitting down and just having some conversations — you know, myself and Corey — and

5:08it kind of led to a partnership, and yeah, the rest is kind of history. So 20 months in — so far so good. And yeah, it's been a great project. Really just starting to get rolling now — you know, we're through the design on a few of the buildings, so starting to get rolling on the energy centre here with construction. We've done the mass cut and fill

5:32on the campus parking. So you know, it's been great so far. Tell us a little bit about the Gander and Grand Falls-Windsor long-term care facility — the P3 job — and just a brief briefing on what that's been like, the challenges. Yeah, so certainly my first P3. You know, it's a design-build at its core — when you add in the financing and the operations and all those elements, it's certainly been a challenge.

6:05Definitely been a great learning experience for us. There are two 60-bed long-term care facilities — essentially identical projects, one in Gander, one in Grand Falls. So yeah, we're a couple of years in, just kind of in the finishing stages here now. And it's been a great — really a great learning experience for our team, having not done one in the Atlantic region before. And I'm sure you've bid on other P3s before that one, whether in Newfoundland or in other provinces, and

6:35that was kind of the first one that you guys nailed? That's exactly it, yeah. Yeah, that's a grueling tender process. Very — yeah, super long. It's months. By the time you go through the RFQ stage, the RFP stage, work through the financial close, it's a year-long process start to finish — easy. What's it been like in Cape Breton? Like, if that's the area where you're doing your first job, can it be challenging finding subs in the area, or people to

7:06travel there? Or is that kind of partly why you teamed up with Lindsay that way? Well, I think the market in Cape Breton is booming right now. I mean, we have our project certainly, PCL has the two large long-term care facilities, and you know, EllisDon and others have work over there too. So it's a lot of work going into Cape Breton right now — so great, really, for the people up there.

7:34Of course, I think there'll be challenges with labour, but yeah, you know, we're a resilient industry and we'll find a way to get it done. For sure, for sure. To your left is Rajendran — just want to make sure I did pronounce that right. I've been practicing, so I got that right. I'm proud of myself. So, project director with Pomerleau, and you've been with Pomerleau for three years in Calgary, moved here I think during the pandemic, and been here for

8:04about a year. I have a civil engineering background from the University of Saskatchewan and 10 years in the construction industry. How's your time been with Pomerleau so far, and how's the move to the Atlantic region? Well, I mean, yeah, I love Pomerleau. I joined Pomerleau pretty much immediately, and because it was great — I loved working for Pomerleau — and the move was pretty interesting and challenging, to say the least, because Lorin and I first talked about it,

8:38I think back in 2019 — early 2019 — and then it finally happened, but because of the pandemic everything got pushed months and months and months. And yeah, it was interesting to do that during the pandemic and with the family — young kids. You ever — we were actually — you had to do the 14-day quarantine, you know, came with — selling back the condo — yes, and buying a house sight unseen. I'm sure a lot of people listening can relate. Bought a house sight unseen — yeah, that was — I was

9:07sure a lot of people listening can resonate with the 14-day self-isolation thing. Yeah, that's good — that's behind us mostly though. So yeah, take us through being a project director, just, you know, what a day looks like for you and what it's like and the certain projects that you're working on, what your role entails. Sure, yeah. So I'm a director — right now I've got mostly water and wastewater treatment projects. We have one in

9:31Wolfville, which is lump sum; one in Wabush, which is a design-build; we have a project in Surrey, PEI as well, which is another lump sum project; and I'm also on the hospital projects in Dieppe, New Brunswick, and just kind of started the Gagetown Integrated Health Project as well. So my role essentially is to support the project manager, the coordinator, and superintendent on their day-to-day activities — you know, helping with scheduling, conflict resolutions, dealing with contractors and the owners, trying to make sure that

10:07everybody on the team is pushing the project along and keeping everybody in line — really — so then reporting back up. Yeah. So you have a background in various sectors like heavy industrial, mining, oil and gas, power generation, and like you said, wastewater. So do these projects for Pomerleau fall under a special projects heading for you guys? Or could they be lump sum, could be design-build? But when you say special projects,

10:39what falls under special projects? Good question. We don't have a special projects division, okay. So Pomerleau is set up — maybe to explain the business setup — really with three pillars. So we have CNI, Civil and Infrastructure; we have Quebec Building Operations; and Canadian Building Operations. So Atlantic would fall under Canadian Building Operations. We also have an Apex group which kind of leads our design-build and P3 portfolios, and then we have a sister company that we own called Borea, which does

11:15renewable energy — so wind farms and things like that. In Atlantic Canada we primarily do buildings. With that said, our civil and infrastructure team is here and just actually finishing a large jetty caisson job at the Port of Saint John. Yeah, yeah, wow. And also to my left — on the same side of the table — is Emily Surette. Don't worry, I haven't forgotten — it just took a little longer to get to you than I wanted, but

11:44thanks for being here, Emily. No, thanks for having me. How are you doing? I'm well — and yourself? Great, great. Emily is a Talent Business Partner for Pomerleau, bringing a people-centric focus to HR practice with over six years of experience in HR. Bachelor of Arts in Anthropology — yeah, I had a Bachelor of Arts in Anthropology and then went on to do an advanced diploma in Human Resource Management at NSCC. Very nice. I think it's really interesting for other people who might be in a

12:21similar situation to you — in your education, HR could be other things like marketing — and just what it's been like for you to work with Pomerleau in construction out of those fields. And maybe yeah, just take us through — I don't know if it was your plan, I'm assuming maybe it was, maybe it wasn't — what it's like to be in that position with a large firm and general contractor like Pomerleau. So when I had graduated with my

12:52diploma in Human Resource Management, I went and worked at a family-owned organization called Acadian Plants, and it was in manufacturing. And when I was looking for something different — I didn't have a ton of — I had no exposure to construction — but what really resonated with me, with the role and the organization, were the values. And really, that it was a family-owned organization, because the focus is being connected and putting people first. So although it is a national scope for the organization, it is very much a people-focused

13:40Yeah, I think that's really interesting to bring that up. And you know, from Pomerleau's origins as a family business and to the size and scope that it's grown, you'd have to think that the process and the thinking behind HR and things like marketing — to keep that family business feel, even still. Do you guys feel that — that it's still a family business even though it's grown to the size that it is? Any comments? Absolutely. I mean, on my

14:12first day — Francis has taken a new role, but originally when I started I had a welcome email from my boss's boss's boss. So, you know, that that was even on the radar was incredible and made me feel very welcome to begin with. I definitely feel that it is family-focused and trying to keep — you know, we have the Pomerleau brand and most of the people that we hire share those values, embody those values. But we do get to kind of put a little

14:49Atlantic flavour on it — or BC has kind of their own way to do it. Yeah, I think that's another good point too, because I mean, the vast difference between one end of the country to the other — BC is a different market than Atlantic Canada, so obviously they're going to have their twist on things and their own sort of subculture. But it still kind of holds true to the umbrella of the whole. How about you, Ashwin? Any comments on that, in just the four years you've been

15:14in Pomerleau? And maybe also mention what it's been like to work in Atlantic Canada as opposed to Western Canada — maybe some changes you've noticed, some pros and cons, anything at all. I think Emily's got the point that she's trying to make — you know, it's that we have the Pomerleau brand and the family feel, and we do embody that everywhere we are. So you know, when I was in Calgary it was almost like — and then coming here it was almost like

15:40a cousin or extended family kind of situation. You know, Lorin and I, we got along just fine. The office and the whole — you know, the boss's boss keeping in touch with everyone — I had that feeling there, I have that feeling here. So I'd have to echo exactly what Emily's saying: it doesn't matter where we are, we still feel like part of an extended family. So yeah, that's great. And what about anything aside from the culture of the company

16:03— just the jobs you're working on, sort of the way things are done in Atlantic Canada, and just dealing with the people here — is there any major differences you've noticed? I mean, it's kind of like, it's half a dozen in one hand and six in the other. It's all the same thing, but yeah, I mean, there's nothing — I mean, it's not really differences, it's just different, you know, it's how people approach certain items. But I mean, I also come from Saskatoon, and

16:31it was — I'm trying to find the right way to say it — Saskatchewan is a little more relaxed over there, and Alberta's a little less relaxed, and then here is just, you know, its own thing. Everybody has their own — maybe that's the best way to put it. And you know, there's no bad or good — it's all different. So. And so you got an email from Francis Pomerleau on your first day of work? Yeah, this would be — he's one of

16:55the sons of the founder. Yeah. So currently his role is Director of National Strategy, but at the time that I joined he was overseeing Talent, Culture, and Leadership. So there are about four different levels between him and I in TCL, and on my first day there was a "welcome to the team, Emily" sitting in my inbox, which I was pleasantly surprised by. Very — yeah. Wow, that's really something — I'm going to get a nice warm welcome with that.

17:25Yeah, speaks to the family feel and everything as well. Lorin, you mentioned earlier you might have a Francis Pomerleau story that you'd like to tell. Yeah, I mean, just an example of the family feel. My daughter — just after March Break, actually — she was at daycare and we got a call: "Hey, Isla sprained her ankle, can you come pick her up?" So my wife went and got her, she came home. You know, kids at that

17:52age — you can't really tell if they're hurt or just kind of acting to get attention. But it turned out she had a broken femur, so she was in a body cast kind of from nipple line to ankle. So just got a call from Francis — said, "Hey, heard about it. How's she doing? Let me know if you need anything — we're here. If you need us, you know how to get me." So you know, I think that's the kind of

18:14feel that him and Pierre and the rest of the exco kind of push down to us. So it's really great to have someone that cares at that level. Yeah, well, that's amazing to hear. It makes you wonder how they have that headspace, just to know everyone's family, know their names, and keep on top of what's happening with them — it shows you how much they care. Yeah, it's really — they've been like that, honestly, since I've been here for 15 years almost. So

18:42it's been kind of like that since day one, when we were a much, much smaller organization than we are now. Yeah, it reminds me — I'm a big Jordan Peterson fan and he often talks about — I don't know if you guys are fans of his or not — but he always talks about how people sometimes will think that CEOs get to the level they do from being ruthless and just being hedonistic in that. But the truth is the exact opposite. You know, people

19:06that do get to that level actually are very empathetic, very caring, and just have huge hearts for people. And I think that story just speaks to that fact as well. Ashwin, I thought maybe we could talk a little bit on the innovation side — just about, you know, whatever is on your mind for these kinds of things — but just a little bit about your role as project director and

19:34things like sustainable solutions, BIM, and how that benefits the business, 4D and 3D models, and the lean approach, and just maybe even some of the new technology that Pomerleau is integrating, such as drones and virtual reality sort of thing. Yeah, sure, no, I can give a quick rundown on that. First of all, at Pomerleau we take innovation — it is one of our core principles that we strive to improve on. Pomerleau has always been a leader —

20:09trying to — we have over 50 people in the company who are strong leaders in various fields. They work all across Canada and they're always listening, have an ear to the ground, trying to understand and get updated on what's new, what's the next big thing. Right now it's 3D modelling — probably one of the real ones. We adopted it fairly early on, 2012 I think. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. And

20:39so we have our BIM and our VDC teams — they create 3D models for us that we use to detect clashes, which helps mitigate issues and identify problems long before we actually start building, or even during the building process. You know, our site teams have access to drones, robotic total stations, as well as laser systems that we use to scan buildings, create our models, and then compare them with our drawings to see where we're at and where we're going.

21:10Any issues in between — that has been really helpful for our site teams as well as the owners, other stakeholders, and trade partners, to kind of, you know, identify where we're at and where we need to go. So it's always good to see 3D stuff, right? It's interesting, it's cool — it comes from the video game world — and our team, you know, they're very well-versed. They have all the cutting-edge tools. One thing that we also use is Holobuilder, which is — it's not something that

21:37we own — it's a third-party company — but the program is very neat. We have QR codes everywhere on our sites. We take 360-degree photos with essentially a camera station that takes pictures. Anybody can go and scan the code and then they'll see where — essentially it becomes an augmented reality kind of thing. It'll show the models and you can kind of look around and see where it's going to go, what's there right now. And you can pick up — what's the name of the technology again?

22:03Holobuilder. Okay, yeah. It's — that's a German-slash-American company. And the thing with technology is they evolve so fast. They've only been around since 2016 and '17. So a lot of people — it was after they picked it up and people were still joining the industry — it moved so fast. Before you even got to your next step, there's new things that come out. So one of the biggest values of that is for

22:26someone like yourself or Lorin, when you're back at the HQ or the office, you can kind of walk through the building virtually. Exactly, exactly — and while it's being constructed. Yeah, yeah. Like, we can log in and just see what happened last week, what happened this week, in a 360-degree view. And that sounds great — it's a lot of benefits beyond just, I don't know, what started off as clash detection, right? That was also to make sure there was no interference, and now

22:50it's gone to a whole different level where you can just literally, you know, virtually be there without actually being there and being in everybody's face and everybody's way. And it's really neat. That's kind of our — and for our listeners who aren't familiar, if they're outside the industry maybe and not familiar with BIM and the 3D modelling stuff, I guess to generalize it — it enables a company like yourself on design-build,

23:14whether or not it's design-build or not, but it's your project and you can build it digitally prior to building it physically, and just foresee all the obstructions and — exactly. I mean, we have lots of examples of problems. For instance, one example that comes to my mind right now — we have fire stations in Alberta, but it's the same group, same technology. We had — before we even had the first bucket in the ground, we modelled the building

23:38for three levels, and we found — it was one of those projects where the drawings did not match — some issues there. And we knew those issues. We made a plan, and within a week we had our BIM expert on the model, and we identified — I don't know — probably two dozen issues. We brought in the owner, the operators, and we showed them the view, we walked them through the building. There were a lot of them that aren't huge massive ones — there were some pretty big ones — but it all ended up being resolved before we

24:04even put a bucket in the ground. Those issues — at the end of the project they would have cost time, money, headaches. I feel like there are numerous owners or project managers listening right now going, "Geez, I wish somebody would have caught these things on a project I worked on two years ago." And it just shows the amazing value that technology brings. Otherwise you never would have caught those dozen items. And then exactly — and then to have, you know, we also want to be

24:29— we have to foster that as a company. We encourage it, we do it, we invest in it, so that we get the results. You know, it's not just having the technology but also having the knowledge and everybody understanding what we have so that we use it when it's needed. Emily — Pomerleau has their own training facility in-house, is that correct? Yeah, the PX Cube. Yeah, so we affectionately call it the Cube, or PX Cube. And it is a dedicated training

24:58facility in Quebec. So we use it — also, not as much during COVID, but typically when we bring on new employees, within their first year they have cultural onboarding. So after having had about six months to kind of get to know everybody in the office and their day-to-day work, the new hires that are in the same time frame — within that same six months that they've been hired — will be flown to PX Cube to meet their peers from across the country.

25:30So they spend about three or four days there, kind of connecting, reviewing, talking all about Pomerleau — their experiences, the history — and it gives people an opportunity to connect with other people that they might not see in their day-to-day and to watch their careers progress as well during their tenure here with Pomerleau. So is that only for the office side of the business, or is there actually training for some of the trades people, like supers

25:59and all the people out on sites as well? Yeah, yeah, all the site staff would go. Yeah, so we wouldn't take a subcontractor, as an example — but any Pomerleau direct employees, like project coordinators, superintendents, health and safety, admin, whatever your position is with Pomerleau — yeah, you would go to PX Cube after six months. So there's going to be a big backlog — I think there might be a little dust on the PX Cube cultural onboarding right now, but

26:32there are plenty of people to get going. And for a company of your size, assuming that is a real step to integrate — to get every employee that comes through the door, just for that continuity and plugging them into the system and the culture. Can we talk maybe about environmental, social, governance — want to say a few words about ESG? And that's related to your accounting and your investors and that sort of thing — or am I wrong? Oh, I'll leave the accounting

27:01and investors to him, but I'll talk about how that kind of ties together. So some clients now are only investing in opportunities that are sustainable. So Pomerleau, as part of the recent strategic plan, has put corporate social responsibility and ESG — which has a close link with DEI — as one of its pillars. And many companies are using ESG now, right? This is a very important thing. Exactly. So a lot of the big nationals are already doing it. We'll publish — we

27:34aim to publish our first ESG report next spring. So we're working with a few different external consultants to get us set up and make sure that we're doing it properly and responsibly. And yeah, so it's something we're really excited about, looking forward to, and we'll see how that changes us over the next few years. Emily, maybe you can talk a little bit about diversity and inclusion in Pomerleau and how that works. Yeah, so currently we are

28:08engaging with an external consultant, you know, to take the efforts that we've already put in to broaden and strengthen our workforce through diversity, equity, and inclusion — but they're going to take that and push it even further. So I mean, this day and age right now we're seeing a lot of underrepresented groups speaking up. Construction typically is — I mean, we've made efforts to address some of these issues. We've developed a Pomerleau Women in Construction cohort —

28:46women get together and discuss some of the issues that they're facing in a male-dominated industry, and have the opportunity to bounce ideas off their peers — again, peers that might not be in the same office or at the same project, or somebody who may have had a similar experience that they can draw on. So just making sure that there's a network of support for that, and in addressing some of the gender concerns that come out of that. Yeah, so that's just an example of one

29:13of the in-house efforts that we're making. But you know, Pomerleau is committed to making sure that — somebody used this reference before — like, diversity is making sure that everybody gets an invite to the party, but inclusion is making sure everybody can dance at the party. So we're very interested — we're in the early stages of working with this external consultant — but we're very interested to see what kind of pulse they have on things. They'll do a pulse check for us and then kind of share what

29:44the recommended actions are, so we can be an overall more desirable employer of choice. Well, yeah, that's great to hear. And it just reminds me of some of the people I know at Apprenticeship Nova Scotia and the Government of Nova Scotia and some of the incentives they have with women-in-construction pilots that they do. And to see a company of your size have that initiative in-house is — yeah. We have — well, I might be a bit biased, but I am

30:13so proud of the women that I work with in the Atlantic Canadian region that I see in the office. We have such strong female leaders. And then with the women that I work with — from my structure, the way that our structure works is I work with Lorin and assist the Atlantic Canadian region, but I fall into shared services on a national scope. So my colleagues are all over Canada — and there is just a ton of strong

30:44female leaders, and Pomerleau really invests and wants to develop them further. So that's quite refreshing — being a woman in construction. Yeah, for sure. And I think that speaks to, even you know, with Atlantic Canada — construction still has a blue-collar aura about it, but obviously on one side it is that, and on the other side it's very white collar, with engineers and accountants and the finance side of things, project management. And I don't know if Lorin you would agree with this or

31:14not, but I think we are seeing a lot of diversification in Halifax — and not just in Pomerleau, but in the industry in general. I mean, there are all kinds of incentives with CANS and for hiring immigration workers on job sites. As I mentioned before — women in construction pilots — and aside from all that, just really strong, great talented women who are in the construction industry. See it all the time, see it every day on job

31:39sites. And would you agree? I — it's great to see, certainly. You know, just my time in the workforce, the diversification is noticeable. Of course we have a long way to go as an industry, to be like the rest of the world, but baby steps and we'll get there. I think this is a great initiative. The industry as a whole has taken great initiatives. I recently attended a CANS event focused solely on this exact topic, so you know, it's great to see the industry

32:13recognizing that we need to be better and really taking the steps to do that. So I'm certainly proud to be working for a company that puts that at the forefront. And yeah, I'm looking forward to seeing where we'll be in another 15 years. Absolutely. Well said. Maybe Lorin, we could talk a little bit about branding — the company culture and the branding of Pomerleau. I think you're kind of in a phase now where you're

32:39rebranding things, and there's a new Vice President of Marketing with Pomerleau now, and maybe just speak on the importance of that and what it means for the company. Yeah, so Veronica — she joined Pomerleau in January of this year. She joined not only in the midst of the pandemic, kind of right in the hot spot where the variants were going crazy, but she joined in the middle of our strategic planning process.

33:08And that process is going to take us to 2025. You know, really the message that came out of that in terms of branding was "shaping the future." And what does that exactly mean? So if we think about — you know — your life, our life, everyone's life around this table, the world's life in March of last year — absolutely. And I would — if I'm a betting man, I would suggest that life as we know it is

33:37done, and the future is going to be different in some shape or form. And part of that — our industry has been traditionally slow to adopt change, slow to adopt innovation, but I do think we will reinvent ourselves. And Pomerleau is a leader in the construction industry — we want to help shape that future. Certainly our mission is always going to be to build infrastructure, build buildings, but

34:13we also want to build communities and living spaces. And really we want to do that in a more collaborative, environmentally friendly, socially responsible, innovative, and human-centric way. And really, that's what the vision — that's what the branding — is all about. How do we as an industry be more inclusive? How do we as a company be more inclusive? And how do we help shape the future of what our industry will inevitably become? Coming under this — yeah. I think that's really neat —

34:41the way you just articulated that. You know, the word "collaboration" and "facilitation," and everybody who's involved in the industry — whether you're a subcontractor or a consultant or a GC with a lump-sum bid or CM — you know, if one leader like Pomerleau, like you said — in some of your company dialogue you're at a crossroads — and if Pomerleau and other leaders are leading the way from that crossroads out to what it's going to look like,

35:13everyone else is going to benefit from that too, right? It's not just Pomerleau that's going to benefit — it's going to be anyone who's working and collaborating with them. And so it's such an important thing that you guys are strategically approaching that, and other people in these markets are going to benefit from that when they're working with Pomerleau on any number of the large projects that you guys work on. Absolutely. I mean, if we take innovation as a great example — if our subcontractors are

35:41adopting it, they're more efficient. If they're more efficient, we're more efficient, and we as an industry are more efficient. And of course that directly translates to the bottom line. So for us we can deliver our projects faster, our communities and our clients get to use them faster — and you know, that's just great for everybody. Absolutely. Yeah, I'd like to just kind of open things up — Ashwin and Lorin and Emily — and obviously, you know, Pomerleau is busy in many different provinces in Atlantic Canada: Nova Scotia, Newfoundland, PEI, New

36:15Brunswick. Maybe we could just talk about a few of the projects that are going on right now that are current — whether they're milestone projects or not, but just sort of the current events, the current projects that Pomerleau is working on across the Maritimes. So yeah, we've got quite a few projects going on right now in Atlantic Canada. One of them we just finished was in Wolfville, Nova Scotia — we had a wastewater

36:43treatment plant project — good size. We actually just got substantial completion — the client is very happy with the project. Next one — we'll be restarting the building rehab in Halifax, which is set to start in August, which is a great project for us. It's in Halifax and that's a very coveted area everybody wants to be in. Another one we have is the Surrey Wastewater Treatment Plant. It's an SBR mechanical system, which — we're about 30 to 50 percent in right now. Sorry — PEI. Yeah, Surrey PEI.

37:15Exactly, yeah. That's also been a great project — they're working with our local subcontractors, all from the island. It's going really well. Next one we have is Wabush — that's a design-build wastewater treatment as well. That one's more about 80 percent completed. That's also a mechanical system. It's a really good project for us. So in New Brunswick, we have the Dumont Hospital SDU unit, which is with — and we also have the 4B unit, which is the same hospital on the

37:45other side. And that's also been going well. That's the ones I can think of. I was going to ask — and all you guys on the episode here today brought up a number of wastewater treatment facilities and some different healthcare projects, one being the Cape Breton Regional. You guys focus — like, that's a focus for you obviously, those areas. Do you bid on schools? And just want to kind of go across the board — educational, government,

38:19healthcare, industrial — you guys touch on all those areas, or your focus is mostly on certain types of projects? Well, in Atlantic Canada, with the market, you've got to be adaptable. You know, one day it's a school program, and the next day it's a wastewater plant, and the next day it's a hospital. So you have to be adaptable. Would any one of those kinds of projects be Pomerleau's bread and butter? I would say certainly

38:49healthcare, wastewater, and recreation have really been something that we've been fairly successful in — in my time at Pomerleau. So those are areas that we really like to work, we have good success, and they're fun — really challenging, fun, technical projects that our teams really love to be associated with. What are some of the recreation facilities that you've worked on, Lorin, across — well, in Newfoundland we've done Marystown YMCA. We've done Goose Bay — Labrador Wellness Centre. I guess they're branding it Happy Valley-Goose Bay. We just finished the Intergenerational in Moncton

39:20— you know, a few years back in my project management days. I did the Moncton Athletic Stadium for — at the time — the 2010 World Junior Track and Field Championships. Those are kind of the ones that are coming to mind. I'm sure we've done a few more but I'm just drawing a blank. I'm sure there's like 10 more. Yeah, it is

39:54late in the day on a Friday, so — beer o'clock! That's right. So when you say that you've been successful with a specific type of project, whether it's healthcare or, like, the example of recreation facilities — is that because you've developed relationships with consultants and architects in that arena who focus there? Or are those lump-sum bids or design-builds? After you do so many — or is it just the scenario that there are certain design components that go with these different

40:25types of buildings — how does one become more successful at one type? If you can take us through a little bit of that journey — that's a tough question to answer, because really honestly it's a mix of everything you just said. Yeah. Some of it is location, some of it is type, some of it is contract mode. I mean, we've delivered a few of those via design-build, we've delivered some via lump sum. You know, choice of

40:55trade partners — honestly, you need to really have the perfect recipe for every opportunity if you want to be successful. Exactly, exactly. If you don't have all the ingredients, you're not going to get a good cake — and really, that comes down to a successful project. So we have not won any one of them on our own — certainly it's all been a team effort, especially on the design-build side. And then really honestly on the lump sum —

41:21good trades, good pricing, and really a good strategy for execution. So I think that's partly led to our success. Yeah. And our execution team — they like working on it, so that helps. It helps them be motivated to bid it and really make sure we're efficient and lean to win. Yeah, lots of people with a passion for sports in the construction industry — I mean, that's what I'd love to do, to be part of building these facilities.

41:50Right. Yeah, yeah. But I think also kind of important — you know, Lorin just touched on that — the team, our local in-house team, they love working on those projects and they're passionate about them. When they work them and when you hear the guys talk about it, when they bid on those they always love it. And it comes from passion and they're good at it. So yeah. And I know Lorin, and I think Ashwin you can relate to this as well, when I asked about

42:13the different commercial and industrial sectors — education, government, healthcare — and how you really have to be diversified in Atlantic Canada to stay busy in the market. Does that also hold true for the project delivery model — whether it's P3, design-build, lump sum, CM — like you've got to be diversified there as well? But is there sort of one of those engines that's driving business for you guys or that you're focusing on more for the future? Or one that's kind of been growing within

42:46Pomerleau — whether it's more design-builds or P3s, which is obviously an initiative for you guys now with doing the job in Gander? Yeah, and again I think the diversification by region is honestly what kind of drives that market. I mean, the government market, let's say by province, is different. Newfoundland is in a DB/P3 kind of market right now, so of course we need to be adaptable if we want to work there. New Brunswick is lump sum. PEI

43:17is lump sum. And Nova Scotia here is CM. So depending on where we work, we need to have teams and approaches that are adaptable to all those markets. And certainly from a company standpoint we want to dabble a little bit in each one, really just to ensure the risk profile is well managed. But yeah, I mean, we don't have a preference for either contract model — we'll work in

43:46any type of model. It's honestly client-dependent, and we'll come up with a bid that hopefully wins in any scenario. Emily, I'm wondering if you want to touch on some of the not-for-profit giving — or any of you — that Pomerleau is involved in, or some of the team-building stuff in the workplace? Is that something we could chat about? Yeah, we — when we talked earlier about that family feel

44:19internally — I felt like I wasn't doing it justice to say, like, that's how it's treated when you're an employee. But the Pomerleau family has a big commitment to making sure that they're giving back — to not-for-profits, to the community, not just the ones that we build in. And I think on your website it says there are hundreds of different — yeah. So I mean, when COVID hit, we had

44:49the "Love is an Essential Service" campaign, which raised over $600,000 for various groups that were not-for-profit or in financial need. And that's through Pomerleau's donations but also personal donations from Francis and Pierre as well. In that same breath, we had an emergency COVID relief fund for our employees if they were facing financial hardships and needed some monetary assistance. You know, everybody was affected differently — there was a confidential way that they could reach

45:26out for support. And we also try to — if we're working in an area, we don't want to just build something and leave. We want to leave a legacy in something that's living and breathing for people to use. So there is — I can't remember exactly which location — but the playground in Gander. So we had a project there and then we contributed to putting up a playground, so that's something the community can use as well.

46:03There was a barbecue — I believe a week, maybe two weeks ago — at the Gagetown Integrated Health project. So that was kind of a celebration for the subs on site, thanking them for their work. And we had a food drive for the food bank there — so people brought in donations, and the company matched that as well. So there's really a ton of initiatives. And you know, we look at it as a national scope too, but also kind of

46:36how I mentioned earlier — each place will do it a little differently. So we have our national things that we contribute to and help with, but also local. Depending on what area you're working in — I mean, there's an Earth Day cleanup, I think on July 17th. It got pushed back because of COVID, but near our office — the Bedford Highway cleanup. Yeah, so our office makes its own effort, so we get together with the

47:02community and clean up a section of Bedford Highway. I'm sure you find lots of garbage. Yeah, I'm sure. But basically just trying to make it better than we found it. Yeah, leave it better than when you came. Yeah, that's great. That's amazing. Yeah. So maybe — I know Lorin, you mentioned earlier about being at a crossroads and some of the Pomerleau strategic branding and that sort of thing, and strategic plans, as a leader in the industry. But maybe

47:32some general comments on where you think the industry's headed, and some new trends and problems — like, the supply and demand of workforce — and some new technologies that are coming down the road, that are here and going to be more present out there in the industry. Yeah, so I think — like I mentioned earlier — I certainly see a future with more diversity, more — if we look at how that workforce is going to change,

47:59I do firmly believe — anyone that's been following the metrics — the amount of people leaving the workforce versus entering it — we are going to have hardship. I do think that's where our industry is going to change. I foresee more automation, more prefabrication, more modular in particular. You see the machines where robots are laying bricks, robots are hanging drywall, and robots — or people sitting in

48:31an office like we are — running excavators and rock trucks remotely. So I firmly believe that's the future. We need a little bit better infrastructure in place in Atlantic Canada to make that happen, but I see that as where our industry is heading in the not-too-distant future. Well, that's really interesting to hear. To dovetail on that — Lorin mentioned the amount of people that are leaving the workforce versus entering it.

48:56That's going to have a huge impact on how we have to recruit top talent. Even if we do move to automation, there's going to be a need for people and their experience in various roles. So the war for talent is real — we have to get competitive, get creative with how we recruit, and really — we talked a little bit about branding too — but highlight our employer value proposition and how we want to be seen. So

49:26we want to be a desirable place to work — not just through Canada's top 100, but through values and the culture and why people would want to come here. So we really do have to put our money where our mouth is on that and highlight why it's such a great place to work. Yeah, that's a really great point. Well, Emily and Ashwin and Lorin — really want to thank you guys for your time. It's amazing to have you guys

49:54here representing Pomerleau — as a Regional Manager, a Project Director, and an HR professional. It just really gives us a good perspective from the company when we have multiple guests. It's a table discussion and it's really a great product for people who are passionate and interested in the industry to tune in and watch and listen to all the comments. And to have you guys here is a real honour, and I just really want to

50:28thank you — and thank Pomerleau for being part of the Atlantic Construction Podcast. So from everyone — from our team, there are lots of people behind the scenes helping make this happen. I'm just the lucky one that gets to talk to people. So I really want to thank you guys for your time — it's just been a real pleasure chatting with you guys today. Dan, really, thank you. Thanks for what you guys are doing — really. And you know, we are passionate about the industry, and thank you guys for being

50:52our voice — we appreciate it. Thanks a lot. Thanks a lot, Lorin. Thank you. Thanks, Emily. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to follow us on any podcast platform you use. You can also find us on LinkedIn and Instagram — Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to send us a comment or review — we'd love to engage with you.