Inside Atlantic Canada Commercial Millwork: CNC Automation, Section-6 Scope, and the Real Cost of Lumber in 2021 — Matt Cameron, Provincial Woodworkers

0:15Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. I'm your host Daniel Arsenault. With us on this episode is Matt Cameron from Provincial Woodworkers. We talk about the commercial millwork trade and its challenges, AWMAC — the Atlantic chapter of the Architectural Woodwork Manufacturers Association of Canada — Provincial Woodworkers' backstory, past and current projects, and more. Hope you enjoy. All right, welcome back. I have Matt Cameron with me today. Very grateful to have you here, Matt, with Provincial Woodworkers. Matt's in sales with Provincial Woodworkers. He's been there since the company started —

0:53— 16 years ago. Matt's also the vice president with AWMAC of the Atlantic chapter and, I think, a former president of a minor football association — we'll add that in there for personal context. Thanks for being here, Matt. Yeah, thanks for having me. Yeah, so just tell us a little bit about yourself — family life and sort of outside of work — and then we'll just dive into Provincial Woodworkers. Yeah, so I'm a single dad of two kids, and I've been working at Provincial Woodworkers like I say since we started off, from the —

1:31— nitty-gritty, driving the truck to pushing the broom to manufacturing to the sales side to the marketing side to everything else that's involved with a small business. You kind of wear a lot of hats. Yeah, for sure. We love having people on the show that have kind of taken their journey right from the shop floor or the construction site floor right to the upper part of management, and I think that always speaks to the ambition that our guests have. They have that experience, and the guys

2:01sort of respect them more just from the journey that they've taken. It means a lot to the site workers. And yeah, you get to appreciate all sides of what the struggles are from day-to-day challenges, because you've either seen them or have been involved with them or have helped resolve them. So it kind of helps give you perspective when you've done all levels of the work. Yeah, for sure. It's stuff you can't — you only get that from experience. You can't get it

2:27from a book. So yeah, Matt, let's just dive into Provincial Woodworkers. I mean, you guys have a great name here in Atlantic Canada, and you know, you've done many big projects. So yeah, maybe just tell us a little bit about the operations. You're saying you have your install crew, you have your manufacturing side, and that's what really makes the woodwork companies in this industry different from a lot of sub-trades, right?

3:00I mean, a lot of sub-trades are just installing and they're buying their material, markup, and that's how it goes. But you guys have so much more depth and complexity with your operations. Yeah, so we have 16 manufacturing employees that work in the shop — either manufacturing or including our truck drivers — and we have about six guys who do installations, just purely on site. But we buy from raw product to sheet goods, board goods, and manufacture the casework in-house,

3:32finish it, then deliver, then have the installation component. We're fully automated. So we have one CNC currently, and we're installing a second CNC machine today, which will give us a good advantage in terms of the product that we can push through, and make the larger projects much more manageable to take on. You said you had two full-time CAD techs — two full-time CAD engineers, we call them for lack of a better term — and they do all of our programming. Yeah. And they're nesting for our CNC

4:04machines. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So that kind of speaks to what you were saying — nowadays, with it being such a manufacturing-based operation in the shops, you really have to move into that realm of having CAD and having your — whether it be CAD or another design system — to have a competitive edge in the industry now. Where it's — if you don't, if you're not automated or if you're not in the process of becoming automated, it's going to be very difficult to take on larger projects. You can manage

4:33smaller projects without them, but if you're taking on the larger builds or multi-unit builds, you need to be essentially fully automated — especially in 2021, with where technology is. Yeah, yeah, for sure. And then your install crews would be a totally separate group of employees, right? Like that's kind of a trade or skill of its own. That's correct. Yeah, it's a little more troubleshooting when you're on site, because things are never as easy as you plan them to be. So you have to be

5:03pretty creative when you're doing installing. You have to be dealing with contractors and customers and other trades. So the installation crews are typically a little different than the manufacturing crews — they're pretty personable. Yeah, yeah. The construction site workers — you were mentioning earlier about how section six of the spec, you know, it's woodwork and it's all the architectural woodwork, but a lot of times a lot of other stuff gets thrown in there too, right? So it's not like you're just dealing with

5:35wood products — like there's stainless steel and anything that kind of ties in with it. Exactly, exactly. So yeah, section six is, you know, architectural woodworking is the 06200, 06400, but again there's miscellaneous metals, acrylics, glass — anything that's touching millwork essentially will get put into our section for us to figure out. So it makes bidding a job a lot more challenging, because it's not just "build these cabinets" — it's "build these cabinets with these acrylic display units and stainless steel countertops" or quartz or solid surface. So solid surface is

6:14pretty popular right now. Solid surface, acrylics, and quartz are very trendy right now. The cost of acrylic and quartz has come down so much over the past 10 or 12 years — it's much more affordable for people to use in projects than it was 10 years ago. Yeah. So whenever you're doing a project with multiple countertops, or whether it be a kiosk or desks for offices and stuff, like you're ordering that raw material, you're in the shop, and you're

6:44including that in the faces of building the box. Yeah. So if it's a quartz product, we sub that out to a contractor that would do all those things. The acrylics we bring in-house and we can cut and work ourselves. But the acrylics are becoming more of a standard than they are. I don't know if it's just the look or the trend, but there seems to be less quartz right now at the moment, and more

7:18— so, and when you say "trend," like, a lot of times that means whatever is currently popular in the architecture side, whatever is being specified. Basically, yeah. The designers and the architects — the design community — they dictate what we are using. We typically don't get to pick what we want to use. They typically dictate what product or material we're using. So it's whether it's the durability or cost or just the fashion look they're going for — they determine

7:50how they want the product to work. And then if it's something that is maybe really tough to acquire due to lead time, or even during the pandemic with supply chain, you could mention an alternate or something that might look similar. Yeah. Sometimes they have a product in mind that comes from Europe, and of course right now that's very difficult to get. So we'll say, "A, it'll cost this much less, and B, it's this much more readily available."

8:20And typically they're receptive to that. Sometimes they're not, which is fine — there's just an additional cost to using those items. Yeah, yeah. That's great. Let's talk just a little bit more about the shop operations, as far as what your shop looks like. You have two time-savers, you have two CNC machines — what does the shop consist of? Yeah, so we have two CNCs, one edge bander, and then it's — we kind of have like an

8:55assembly-line type of operation, where we go from the CNC being cut to the edge bander to manufacturing and then back either into finishing or out the door. Is there a spray booth as part of your operation? There is a spray booth that's part of it as well. So that's a whole other arena. Yeah, it's a pretty vital part of the process. Yeah. There's a lot we can do — a lot of finished product, either it's wall cladding or ceiling

9:23cladding, or sometimes just cabinetry itself that has a finish on it. So definitely a large market that involves finishing. Yeah. And it's typically a similar finish on most of the products — like a three-coat clear coat — or is there like orange peel or different things? Yeah, there are different options. They specify sometimes they want a stain finish. And for any of the larger projects we do with the ceiling detail, it has to be a fire-retardant coating finish on it, which is an additional step that adds to the process —

9:53right. It's time-consuming, it's much more expensive, but it's a building code requirement they need to meet. What about low VOCs? Oh, same — yeah, that's a bit less of a concern now. Yeah, it seems so, because everything is typically off-gassed for days in our facilities before they get to site. So the VOCs are typically — and I think the standard for VOCs that the product manufacturers provide are pretty low VOC now. Yeah. And that's part of your operation anyway — to leave it on site, let it off-gas, and then install it.

10:25Yeah. I've always found it interesting, the supply chain in your industry — from forest to where it gets milled and kiln-dried and all the different steps, and then you know it gets to a retail place like East Coast Hardwoods, which you guys use in your supply chain. So you guys will order flat stock of the different species and stuff, but in that retail store — in that phase of the supply chain — you could say they're milling, because

11:05they're sanding it to, you know, 80 or 120 grit, or whatever they give it to you at. But then you take it and you're milling lumber in your shop too, and then pre-fabbing it and actually building with the product that came from the forest, along those different lines. Yeah, so we purchase most of our hardwood pre-milled to the specifications that we need. Some other millwork companies have their own mill shops where they'll plane their own lumber

11:33dimensionally to what they need. We just don't have the space to do that, so we purchase our lumber essentially pre-milled. There are some jobs where we bring in just rough lumber and do the manufacturing ourselves — if we're doing things like butcher block tops for bars or restaurants, or even some retail environments have them. Yeah, we'll make those ourselves. So we'd bring in the rough lumber, mill it, and do it ourselves. And then for sheet goods, same thing — it's

12:02all the sheet goods coming in just in 4x8 or 4x10 sheets, coming from one of the different mills in Atlantic Canada — more in Ontario, Quebec. And then we manufacture from there. So there are a lot of different products that we pull from. Yeah, yeah, and tons of different veneer plywoods. Yeah, I mean — Columbia Forest Products is the big plywood provider. Okay. They're probably the standard for what they can offer — essentially anything we need. So we typically pull from them, not

12:40trying to plug one company over the other, but yeah. Well, we like to give some companies a few shout-outs on the show, so that's fine. What about — we talked, we chatted a little bit earlier about FSC, and just the role that it plays in companies like yourself in this industry. And obviously FSC is forest-certified, and it's basically governing the supply chain so that things are being done properly and good practice for sustainability and that kind of

13:15thing. So you guys are FSC-certified, or you're doing FSC projects, but that doesn't mean that you have to be FSC certified as a company, right? Correct. We were FSC certified for about six years, and then we actually let our membership lapse in the fall of 2019, for the sole reason that there were not enough projects that required you to have your FSC certification as a manufacturer. Instead, you could use FSC-certified material but not have the COC, which is chain of custody — which means that you run

13:54from purchasing material that's FSC certified all the way through the installation of the product, so every person that touches that material has to be an FSC-certified company. But that standard has not been enforced by the design community to make us have the need to maintain that certification. Yeah. The certifications — as a company, we can still take on certified projects; it's just that they're not what they call COC all the way through. So they — I think they meant well in the process of

14:31introducing the FSC certification, but there's just not enough projects or architects that wanted to have it to necessitate keeping the certification. Right, that makes sense. Because they're still out there — I mean, you still see lots of projects throughout the year that are requiring FSC, but it's not like every one, every week, you know? No. And historically, for — I think we had it for five or six years — we did maybe four or five projects in that amount of time that required it. So

15:01yeah, it was an expense, and it's a fair bit of work to keep — it just didn't make sense to keep anymore. So we let it lapse and haven't really had any ill effect from letting it lapse. And because it's so in line with sustainability and carbon footprint and whatnot, you see it a lot on, like, the Dal campus, for example — if it's a LEED project, it's going to be FSC. But it's not like those are happening

15:30five times a year — there might be a couple a year, or one a year. Yeah. The universities, the government — universities are typically the ones that may still want to have it. But again, we haven't seen it very much. I definitely want to ask you about the current state of the pricing of materials. I think that's been a big topic — a lot of friends I've been talking to lately have been talking about lumber, and you know, two-by-fours costing about four times right now what they

16:01have been in the past, even just before the pandemic hit. And plywood is double the cost. What's the state of your oak and maple and walnut board-foot pricing right now? I'm sure it's climbed a little bit. It has, it has. And again, supply and demand drives everything currently. Pricing is up marginally, but every year there's always a few points it goes up. Availability for some products can be very difficult right now to get.

16:35MDF is one of them. There was a fire in one of their plants a while ago that has just created a shortage. Where would this plant be? Somewhere in North America? Yeah, somewhere in North America — somewhere in the U.S. I can't remember exactly where it was. Which has just cut out a very large supply option, so now the other mills have to try to pick up the slack. And, supply and demand, they can increase their cost. And with the current state of

17:03things — especially in the U.S., with the pandemic, everyone is not traveling, they're not going here and there, so they're staying home and doing all their own home projects. So all of that — now there's a major surge of building materials to the majority of the United States, correct, which is pulling from the commercial supply, which increases the cost of the product we need to get. So what's the board-foot cost of walnut right now? Is it like 13, 14 bucks? Yeah, I mean, probably higher —

17:35you're probably at like $16, $17. It wasn't that long ago that it was eight dollars, wasn't it — like a few years ago? Yeah, yeah. But I mean, like the exotic ones — I could be wrong on that. I don't — it's not like it's all in your head every day. No, I don't claim to be a hardwood pricing specialist. It has gone up, but the exotic woods anyway have gone up over the years in price, and it's a very volatile market — it can

18:00be up or down based on supply and demand. So yeah, I guess I have walnut in my head because I enjoy woodworking and furniture and stuff, and just in the past I've used a lot of walnut — just like the look of it. But on the topic of hardwoods, like, what would there be — six to eight different species that mostly you guys are ordering for a lot of projects, like red oak, white maple, things like that — that you could

18:29just chat about? Yeah. Typically, white oak is the hot one right now. Architects seem to be specifying it heavily — the designers, the design community are on a high of that right now, which is trending. Which is common — something peaks for a couple of years and then it'll move to the wayside. Typically it's white oak, red oak, cedar for doing anything exterior, pine every once in a while — it'll be a big run of pine. But typically it's, you know, four or

19:03five typical ones that we get into. It's not too often we get into too much of the exotic stuff, just because typically we do larger commercial projects where they have small amounts of those. And that's mostly where your volume is — it's the large commercial. You do some bars and smaller — like they can be pretty creative — and I know you guys did, is it the Circa Brass? Am I saying that right? Correct. Yeah, North Street —

19:30that place is awesome. You guys did the sliding stairs and the wine rack and the whole bar. Yeah. So that kind of gives you a sense of more than millwork that our industry has to do — where we had to do the steel cages and the sliding, you know, platforms, and all the components, and upholstery for all the benches that gets included. So you guys — yeah, again, you guys are doing upholstery in the shop too when you have to, right?

19:53Yeah, well, again we sub that out — we don't do it in-house. We purchase from another manufacturer that does it for us. But so yeah, that's kind of a snapshot of the different products we get into. Yeah. Is there a lot — what's the bar top there? Is it live edge or is it something non-wood — stainless steel? I don't remember. I do — I know it's wood. I believe we can throw some pictures up as we're

20:22talking, like after — we can edit them in. Yeah. I believe it's a red oak block top, without seeing it — I'd be sure. Have you guys done a fair bit of live-edge tabletops for bars? Like, you must have done a few — it seems to be pretty trendy too, especially in the city. Every bar I go to seems to have a live-edge tabletop. We haven't done a lot. I don't think for any particular reason, but

20:48it's just some of the projects we get involved with — they just don't have them in there. Yeah, I think it's — it's quite expensive for live edge. So I think it's probably the smaller bars that have a piece of it here and there, and therefore the owners could buy directly sometimes, so we don't get involved in it too often. We've done a few of them but not a great deal. Okay. Yeah, since we're chatting about some projects that

21:14Provincial has done — you guys did Alderney Gate, right? Is all that slat work you guys? Yep. What's that — is that oak? That is white oak. White oak, yeah. Okay, yep. And that has the fire-retardant coating that we were speaking of earlier as well. So that's a building code requirement they need to have for a public building. Yep. Okay, yeah. Because there's a ton of it in there. It's just a couple of years ago, right, that you

21:43guys did that? Yeah, that's probably three years ago. And then there's the Dartmouth Sportsplex — they have all the same similar wood slat detail, but I believe that's in maple or red oak. Yeah. Is that an open slot, or is there a backer piece? There's a batten along the back of it. Okay, just for a backdrop — that keeps them in. And some of them, some projects, have like a black batten behind it, so it has an acoustical value to it. Did you guys do the fitness center at Dal? Was that — yeah,

22:10we did, yes. Because I think — yeah, that had a black felt backing. Was that — yeah, that was yours. Yes. So there's a whole — yeah, there is that component there as well. That was not part of our scope — that wasn't a different — sometimes it's not, right? Right, yeah, yeah. But you guys do manufacture slat when you can. Yeah, absolutely. No, Alderney Gate looks great. And Finn Bar — you guys did that? We did. We did the one in Bedford. The one in Cowie Hill was done

22:40prior by another millwork contractor. We've done Finn Bar. Yeah. We've done Boston Pizza renovations. We've done quite a few commercial restaurant units. Yeah, I've seen them on your website as well, which is great. You guys did some glass partition frames at a TD Bank, and I thought that was pretty neat, because a lot of times you'll see the banks, and, you know, lawyer offices, large corporate fit-ups — even just down here at the Queen's Marque, where they have a couple of office

23:22fit-ups that are being tendered out now to some large corporations. There's always these big interior glass partitions, and a lot of times it's aluminum frames, aluminum battens, and all kinds of different interior glazing partitions. But you guys made the frames out of wood — yeah, which is more common now. A lot, again — a lot of accounting firms, law firms, banks — they have a wood glazing system, door frames, and things like that. So we typically would build everything: the door frames with the glazing frames,

23:52the glass and stuff would be by the glazier, right. So you're just making the rails and stiles, that kind of thing. Yeah. But that is quite common — say banks, architectural firms, law firms, accounting firms, and such. Nice. St. Margaret's Parish — is that on your website too? Yes. That would have been probably six or seven years ago — that was a little while ago. Yeah. Any memories on that one? Was that a memorable one?

24:19It had some interesting panels that were sculpted MDF that tied together to kind of give an acoustical feel, but it's like an ocean-y look to it. It was different — it was definitely very different for a church setting. It was pretty unique. Yeah. Just on that topic, any other projects in the past — with your long history with Provincial Woodworkers — that kind of stand out? I mean, I know you guys have done tons of jobs around the city,

24:52whether it be large condo retrofits where it's basically doing kitchen after kitchen. But any jobs that kind of stand out with some kind of exotic wood that was needed, or just — yeah? There are a few. I mean, the multi-unit ones that we get involved with are pretty cookie-cutter. You know, 200 kitchens the exact same — it gets pretty monotonous, pretty boring, pretty quick. But the Dartmouth Sportsplex — there was a whole solid surface, which is acrylic, railing system that ran through it,

25:22which was pretty unique. First time we'd really done one of those. Did the railing have a profile that was curved or anything like that? No, it was all squared off. But it was a good thing — yeah, it was an open stairwell concept with, I think, two or three stories that had the railing running all the way through. So it was a different project. We've done it at a desk as well. I think it's either on our Instagram page or on our website.

25:46Over at SunCell, which is a business in Burnside, that has seven or eight different angles from the front of the desk back — which is made of all Corian, out of acrylics. So we've done some different, neat, unique projects like that. So the guys in the shop really have to show up those days on the shop floor with their game faces. They do. Between them and the CAD guys,

26:15who will do as much of the legwork as they can to cut the pieces for them — but sometimes there's a lot of head-scratching and problem-solving on the fly. Yeah. No, I've always found it impressive, some of the stuff that you guys are able to do with the design and specs that you're given, and basically being the one that has to kind of pull it together, make it — and you're using materials that are not cheap, so it's not like

26:42there's a lot of room for human error. And there's a lot of collaboration between your CAD guys, your design guys, the floor guys running the — sometimes we'll see things on paper, which is easy to draw, where I look at it on paper and think, "Oh, this is how you would build this," but actually building it is a whole other thing. So sometimes I'll see it and I'll see the finished product afterwards and I'll be like, "Wow, we built that — that's impressive."

27:06You know, well done, well done. Awesome. Just looking ahead, Matt — obviously construction is extremely busy in Halifax and in all four Atlantic provinces. PEI is extremely busy, things are still happening in Newfoundland and New Brunswick as well. I kind of wanted to bring up the new Art Centre. I know that's obviously getting a lot of attention right now with the design competition and Omar Gandhi and KPMB, and just all the provincial government and federal government funding, and

27:46it's a really unique design. It's — I think it's in the shape of an eel — really the design is strongly related to the Mi'kmaq community and that culture. Can you speak on that? I know you've been hearing lots about it, and there's been changes already. But I think that would be one that you guys would really be looking forward to. Sitting on the theme of that — I have to think it's going to have a heavy architectural woodworking component inside, either through wall cladding

28:17or different wood pieces or mural pieces — there's going to be, I think, a heavy presence. It's an exciting project to come out. I mean, these are not ones that come across our desk every — once every 10 years you'll have a project like this that's available. So it's going to be an exciting project. And there'll only be so many local companies that are going to be interested in bidding on a project of that size. We would definitely be one. There's two or three others, and for sure you'll have probably a

28:44few companies from central Canada or elsewhere looking at a job like that. Yeah, it's going to draw attention from far abroad. Absolutely. Just — again, it's one of those once-in-every-decade type projects that you're going to see. And I think for you guys in-house, like, you'd really be pulling together as a team and thinking about that in the back of your mind before the tender comes out. I think they say they're breaking ground in fall of 2021

29:10and they want it completed by 2025. So it's not far off. And obviously, you know, it's great to see local contractors involved when such a showpiece project is happening in Atlantic Canada. So yeah, I'm excited for you guys, and that's going to be one that's going to be — yeah, that's going to be all hands on deck to even tackle the design and pricing part of a project that size, which can, you know — a month of work for sure to price it.

29:42You put in a lot of heart and a lot of attention, a lot of time. Yeah. And then in the end, if you're not successful, it's a lot — it can be defeating. It's like, "That was a lot of effort and energy for nothing." But it's part of the process. So are you guys engaged with that process yet? There's no tender at least yet. It's early, it's early yet. And you're aware of anything specific that's happening inside with the architectural

30:05— yeah, there's nothing — oh, yeah, but we know from just what we've heard and from the architects and stuff that things are going to be very much for architectural woodwork. It's definitely going to be a — fingers crossed. Our fingers are crossed. Yeah, that they do. I think they will. I think they will. Yeah. Anything else? As far as, like, what are some — what are the big projects you guys are on site installing now? You said you're in Newfoundland on a couple

30:31of times as well. Yeah, we're doing a few long-term care facilities in Newfoundland, in central — a hospital up in northern New Brunswick. I always have some multi-units that are on the go. A car dealership in St. John's. So we have a few things abroad, which makes for challenges with travel restrictions. But outside that, I mean, we're doing a large project with Dalhousie — the Dal Arts Centre, Rebecca Cohn. They're redoing that and adding a piece onto the back of it. Are you in the

31:03renovation and the addition? We are. We're — yeah. So there are two different parts of it. We're doing both, which are scheduled to be kind of underway in the summer. I think their completion is for January of 2022. What's in the millwork package around the new stage in the Rebecca Cohn? Is there a lot of — there's a lot of acoustical components, ceiling panels, like finned walls — they have the two finned walls on both sides of the stage, where it's sort of the

31:30front-to-back. Yeah, and they continue that into the new part — and like a curved ceiling, acoustical panels — that you guys are manufacturing. You're manufacturing those? Yeah. And you install those, right? You do the suspension and — correct. Yeah, yeah. So right now we're still just in the shop-drawing phase of it. Should be completed probably in the next month or so. And I believe construction for that is scheduled to start for us over the summer. And that's with Ellis

32:00Don? Correct. That's EllisDon. Nice. Yeah, well, that's an art centre right there. I mean, it's not like those come around that often too, so that's a great mention. You guys are in there — and you got both packages because they were separate, obviously. Your estimating team was on the ball with those two. Yeah, that was — it was an interesting product. It was very different. So it — I don't know, maybe

32:25scared some people away from looking at it. But it was definitely — be curious to see when it's finished. Yeah, it'd be nice to have a look, and it'll be a nice showpiece for you guys too. Absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. Well, it sounds like you guys are really busy. So you said — and this may be because of the pandemic, maybe for other reasons — but you just sometimes sub out. Yeah, so anytime we have jobs — like, obviously we're going to sub that out

32:53because we're not able to send employees over there. Yeah. I'm also open to that sometimes if we're into larger projects and we just can't handle the load with multiple different projects happening at the same time. So we'll sub a good portion of what we need to through different contacts that we use — we can hire them to bring on. Yeah. I want to congratulate you, Matt. You're currently the vice president of AWMAC, the Architectural Woodwork Manufacturers Association of Canada — I said that right?

33:25Yeah. And you will be the new president in the near future — is that correct? Yeah, in June I'll be the incoming president of the Atlantic chapter. Correct. Which — I think there's eight chapters across Canada or something like that? Sounds right — only because I checked the website this morning. Yeah. I congrats on that, because I think — we were chatting earlier, and AWMAC is basically Canada's quality assurance — I think that would be a good mission statement. I forget what exactly — well, I'll let you —

33:58Yeah, so AWMAC is essentially the woodworking standards that manufacturers have to abide by — best practice — in order to ensure quality for the final end product. They're getting what they've paid for. So it's quality control essentially — that's what AWMAC does. It ensures that they're getting the best product that they deserve to have. And they sort of have a 360-degree perspective on

34:30the whole industry as well. AWMAC is, you know, right from the install to the designers and the architects to the manufacturers to the retail stores — the supply chain. Correct. Yeah. So through AWMAC we offer a program called GIS — Guaranteed Inspection Service — which ensures that the millworker is doing shop drawings to our standards, manufacturing to our standards, and installing to our standards. And there's an inspection process throughout the way that's done by AWMAC. We have an

35:06inspector that will go in and check in on those, and that comes at a cost to the — but it kind of gives them peace of mind that they're getting what they're paying for, what they deserve. So is it the owner's decision to spec AWMAC? Typically, between the designer and the owner, they would decide to have that as a GIS. So most architects will have a note on their drawings saying, you know, "Built by AWMAC certified member,"

35:36but they don't really enforce that all the time. But if they go through the Guaranteed Inspection Service process, it's a little more security that they have to use a member of AWMAC. And there aren't many millwork companies that are not a member of AWMAC now — there are a few. But we're always trying to work with them to get them on board with us. It's for their own benefit. There is an expense to it, yes, but it's a benefit that comes with

36:04a cost, but there's a value to it. Yeah, especially in your industry — there's so much complexity with the materials, and it's such a highly aesthetic, architectural side of things that to just have that extra governance, the quality assessments, a few site visits while it's being installed, right from the initial get-go with the CAD drawings — yeah. And it gives them, at the end, a certification that says it was a GIS-certified project and it was inspected.

36:32It gives them an additional year warranty on their product. So yeah, they get value out of the service for sure. Yeah, for sure. So, as the upcoming president of AWMAC in Atlantic Canada, you guys just recently had to — did you do your AGM virtually? You were saying — we did ours last year as well, right? Yeah. So we just had our national AGM on February 25th, just last Thursday. For 2019 — because, trying to do anything virtually can be a

37:06— and there was some red tape about having a virtual AGM, because most boards don't have that as an option. You need to have so many people in quorum to meet the standards to do any voting. So it was a challenge. And of course, having an AGM in February of 2021 for 2019 is difficult because people have forgotten about 2019 — life has changed a lot since then. Certainly has. So yeah, so that's — our 2020 AGM was supposed to be in

37:43Toronto in June, but that has been postponed again. And was that a national AGM? That was our national one, right. Yeah, okay. And do they have that in Toronto every year? No, it moves every year — each chapter. Yes. So it was due to come back to Atlantic Canada in 2023, I believe. But that's been postponed now for a few years at least. Yeah, crazy. Tell us about your football background. So what will you — tell me

38:14about the minor football association. Yeah. So I was a part of the Dartmouth Destroyers minor football association for quite a few years. Started off and then got onto the executive, and was president for three years. It's a volunteer position. It's a challenging role — you're dealing with, you know, we had 170 kids. What ages are these kids? These kids run from mites to bantam, so from six to 14. Wow. So it's quite a few different

38:48teams, a lot of moving parts. Yeah, a lot of coaches, a lot of personnel. And then you're dealing with other associations — you're dealing with Football Nova Scotia, who's like the governing body that we all kind of report to. They're kind of the overseer and control — they create our schedules, they do a lot of work for us. But as a volunteer role, it's a fair bit of work. It's a fair bit of work — I imagine! Well, good on you for that. For

39:15football — such an amazing sport, and for the community engagement there. What were your thoughts on the Super Bowl? It was good. I've been a lifelong Patriots fan. Oh no! My youngest son is named Brady for that reason. For that reason! I'm okay — so I was pulling for him. Part of me was kind of not pulling for him, wishing he would end his legacy in New England. But neither here nor there now — now it

39:45was — he took Gronk with him. He did, he did. The game itself wasn't overly entertaining — it wasn't as good as I thought it would be. The parade afterwards was a little more entertaining to watch — they were definitely indulging and enjoying themselves. Yeah. Brady pretty much established himself as the all-time GOAT. Yeah, I don't think if he didn't have it before — yeah, there was not really a question before, but now it's quite solidified. Yeah. Well, that's great, Matt. Just in closing, online —

40:19where can people find Provincial Woodworkers? I know you have your website — I think you're on social media as well. Yeah. So our website is provincialwoodworkers.com, on Instagram the same — Provincial Woodworkers Limited. That's about it. As I mentioned at the start of the podcast, wearing many hats as a small business — it's not up to date all the time, but we try. Every few weeks we try to get some new posts up there. And we have a good relationship with, again,

40:48the design community, who will put us up in their posts. So give a follow and see some of the work we do. Awesome. Well, thanks for being here, Matt. Really appreciate your time — it was a great chat with you. Great. Thanks for having me. Thanks a lot.