How Atlantic Canada Contractors Can Fix the Labour Shortage — and Stop Turning Down Work | Fairwinds Training

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1:22Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Joined today by Alain Lefebvre, an associate with Fairwinds Training and Development, and really happy to have Alain with us today. Thanks for giving us your time, Alain, and for being here. Appreciate it. Happy to be here — appreciate having the opportunity. Yeah. We go back a long way. First met you when you were with the folks at the Construction Association of Nova Scotia — that's when we first met. But yeah, maybe you can give us a little insight into

1:55your journey. I'd love to do that, and I'll certainly get to the CANS part in a moment. But I was thinking earlier today what would have been my kind of first touch point in the construction industry, and I was thinking back — it was actually when I was in university. I went to St. Mary's, and during the summer I actually worked as a general laborer with Dexter Municipal. I don't know what — okay — which at the time I wouldn't have necessarily seen, you know,

2:24it was a great experience, but I wouldn't have necessarily seen the value in it that it actually kind of worked out to be, from the perspective of the world that I'm in now. I actually got a chance to at least see some of that. What kind of stuff were you doing? Base level, entry level type work within the industry. I mean, I was doing anything from — I was going to say, like, that's a tough job. Started out as a laborer with Dexter's. You know, it was

2:47yeah, and at the time too there was a ton of heavy lifting. The first job that I would have been a part of was actually at St. Mary's, when they replaced the old AstroTurf field with kind of the new surface that they have there. Okay, so you were going to St. Mary's and then your summer job was on campus? That's right, with Dexter's. Yeah, and that moved over to Burnside — Akerley Drive — all the natural gas work that they were doing in those in

3:13that area. So what year — what year was that? Jesus. That would not have been early 2000s. Early 2000s, 2003, 2004, maybe. Yeah. Because you played football there too? I did, yeah. Yeah, yeah. Season, next season, with the off-season training as well — I was in the best shape of my life, yeah. No question. Lifting for — what position were you? No, no — I was a defensive back. I was more of a role player. Yeah. Did you play all four years there, or five? I spent

3:42four years there. How was the team in those days? They were good. Unfortunately it was kind of the post-Vanier Cup year, so we were still a good team — typically we'd win the AUS Championship — but unfortunately I didn't get a national championship ring. Coaching a bit of football too after that? Did you not? I did, yeah, and I still do actually, which is actually, you know, a pretty good tie-in to what I'm doing now at Fairwinds.

4:07Yes, with Rick. You know, a lot of the work that we do, we look at it from a coaching perspective. So whether I'm in my personal life or whether I'm in my professional life, I'm doing a lot of coaching. Yeah, I coach high school football, I coach all three of my kids in hockey and baseball, so I spend a lot of time coaching — that's for sure. Yeah, no, that's great. And then after your first taste

4:35of the construction field, you went on and worked at CANS for quite some time. I did. From there, actually, after I graduated university — I was still, you know, like a lot of people, kind of unsure of what was next. And, you know, where a BA in psychology was going to take me. And I actually ended up going back to school and taking the advanced diploma program at NSCC in human resource management, which is a

5:05fantastic program. And as a part of that program — this is going to get to how I got to CANS, I promise — but as a part of that program we used to always have guest speakers from different industries, different companies come in and talk to us at NSCC. And one afternoon, Juanita McDonald came in. Juanita at the time was working for the Construction Association of Nova Scotia — CANS — leading the Building Futures for Youth program. I don't know if you're

5:34familiar with the program, but it's a really cool initiative that exposes high school kids to careers in the construction trades. Juanita was talking to the class, telling us all about that initiative, and the connections certainly to the HR world from a talent attraction and recruitment perspective. And I just thought it sounded like a really, really cool program — a really, I think, a really important initiative as well. So I struck up a conversation with Juanita after her presentation, which turned into a six-week unpaid

6:08internship at CANS, which I was then able to turn into almost a decade, working in a number of different roles — all kind of focusing on attracting, developing, and retaining talent within the construction sector. Yeah, exactly. I remember when I first met you there at CANS — just very approachable was the first inclination I got, the first intuition when I first met you. And it doesn't surprise me, you know, that you

6:36struck up a conversation when she was at NSCC, and that's how you kind of have that card when you're a student. Right? I remember being a student and thinking, this is a free card for me to get to talk to as many people as I can, and that's what I should do. And I think there's more value in that than any criteria or curriculum that I learned, you know. Absolutely. And at the time as well, these internships — they were pretty competitive because we

6:59were responsible for kind of figuring out for ourselves and finding companies, right? Yeah. Kind of took that opportunity and ran with it. Yeah, you know, it worked out really well for me. I'm super grateful for the time that I spent working at CANS and all the phenomenal people that I worked with — and got to work for. It was just, you know, all the things I learned — it was a really great experience for me. Yeah, and

7:25then just the networking opportunities that are on your pulse every day when you're there in an association like that. Yeah. And I mean, being able to bring those contacts, that networking, again all of those lessons learned — being able to bring those to the world that I'm in now, which is training and development, right, outside of kind of the non-profit sector — extremely valuable. I'm running into people constantly who I met and was able to build pretty

7:54strong relationships with through my time at CANS. Yeah. And to circle back on the football coaching — I think you were talking earlier when we were chatting — so Rick, obviously people will know, with Fairwinds, and his — Brenda. Brenda, yeah, sorry. So Rick and Brenda. But you coached one of their kids in football, did you not? I did. That's how I would have met Rick and the family initially. I believe his youngest boy, Liam — I actually coached him in football. Great kid,

8:21very much like his dad — a lot of energy. Yeah, absolutely. I only talked to Rick once or twice, but that was the first inclination, yeah. Really charismatic, ton of energy, you know, super fun to listen to, super fun to be around. And just even through coaching his son, we kind of met and, you know, I think we got along and we had similar personalities and it worked out really well. And then from there, actually, I

8:52didn't even know this at the time, but from there Rick — I actually got to reconnect with Rick as he was doing training for us at the time at CANS. So he was actually an instructor, him and Brenda coming in and teaching programs at CANS at the time, and we reconnected then. Right, built a relationship and have been fortunate to maintain that relationship. No, that's great. I feel like, you know, as you're telling me that story, I can think of buddies — people I know, whether they're

9:22in the construction industry or outside — and that was how the first connection with their boss was made. They coached their kids in hockey or football or something to do with sport. The sports world. And I just thought of three or four different people I know who got jobs as you were telling that story. It just kind of — it's a good end, you know. When you're going to games and stuff and doing business development, and you're going to a Mooseheads game or a Wanderers game or a Thunderbirds something

9:46in the city, or you're coaching — yeah, like a lot of times that's where you make those connections. It doesn't hurt that if down the road your boss is hiring, he noticed you coached his kid, right? It kind of gives you a bit of an in there, you know. Yeah, absolutely. And I probably sound like a broken record — people probably get sick of me — but I'm constantly making those connections between the work world, what

10:10we do, and sports. And I'm just such a huge fan of all the things associated with sports that are transferable within the work world — whether it's construction, whether it's other industries, other sectors. The commitment, the ability to take feedback, the ability to be coached, all of these things, even just general communication skills. One thing that always stood out

10:41to me — I remember playing hockey as an 11-year-old or something, and I remember learning then that if you were going to be late or not going to practice or something came up, there are consequences. You phoned. I mean, I remember an atom hockey coach telling me that if you're not going to be there, you phoned — I don't want to hear from Mom, I don't want to hear from Dad. Right, really. Yeah, and those are the lessons. And you know, I

11:06think some people — correctly or incorrectly — will throw generational things out there these days, but those are some of the things that aren't necessarily happening out within the workforce. Oh yeah. We've had lots of guests on in the construction world who talk a lot — I just wish somebody would pick up the phone, you know. And I could think of four or five recent guests as you're saying that. But I don't think you sound like a broken record at all. I think there's so

11:33many analogies and synergies when it comes to the sporting world. I mean, the sports world is a business world too. Whether it's the university — I mean, it's all under an umbrella of a lot of management. And especially the world you're in now with Fairwinds Training and Development — I mean, it's training and development. Coaching, building teams — this is all what you're doing for businesses. But it wouldn't be that much different than trying to build up a winning team on the ice or on the

12:02field. Yeah, no, absolutely. And I think, you know, over the last few years it seems like — not necessarily even just within the training and development world, but within the world of managing people in general — there's been a shift towards a lot more of that coaching leadership style. That helping people achieve results and achieve their goals, versus kind of that climb-the-ladder — yeah, exactly — a little more. Yeah, no, for sure. I mean,

12:31I hear the word collaboration a lot more. Definitely. A lot of the — whether it's CEOs from larger firms or owners of subcontracting companies — a lot of people are really trying to be conscious of the culture they're building. And the industry's changing. And I think, you know, you and I are close to the same age, like kind of grew up working summer jobs in construction too. And I can definitely see a change from what it was then — whether it's 15 or

12:5820 years ago — to the way things are now. Just Nova Scotia over the last 10 years in the industry in Nova Scotia, and yeah, there's a different mindset now where it's more collaboration. There's not as much — I'm trying to think of the proper word. Democratic versus autocratic? Yeah, I think that's it. And again, I'll go back to the sports analogy. About? No, please do. Yeah, you know, there's a reason

13:25when you look at professional sports, you don't really see the Mike Keenans anymore, or you see the Mike Babcocks — these kinds of guys — because today's athlete, whether it's today's employee, just doesn't, you know, 25, 30 years ago — yeah. And so people like that are not going to last in those positions. Unfortunately, yeah. Unfortunately for them. Unfortunately for people in the training and development world, it might not be a bad thing. Yeah.

14:03So I mean, a lot of the topics of discussion for us have been around the labour shortage. And obviously, Fairwinds Training and Development — you guys are dealing with industries all across many different planes, on the HR front, recruitment and succession. Maybe just for context you could explain for our listeners, as an associate, what you spend your time doing in the last few years with Fairwinds and what that looks like,

14:32as far as the value you're bringing and how you're helping these companies with these different important services. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, what we do at Fairwinds — and I think the big part of our value proposition, and part of what separates us from a lot of our competition, is we've got a really wide range of services and specialties that we can offer. Ultimately, I would

14:59describe us as kind of a single-source provider for training and development. But it's HR consulting and advising — things like talent attraction, recruitment, selection, performance, all the different things that go into that. We're also specialized quite a bit in training and facilitation, so we do quite a bit of both team and individual development programs, leadership programs, programs focusing on emotional intelligence, on communication

15:39skills, motivation, and even subjects like equity, diversity, and inclusion — we provide training on that. We're heavily involved — Rick in particular, although it's a trending thing. I mean, people have to be educated on how to handle the influx of so much diversity. Absolutely they do. And you talk about the labour shortage — businesses and organizations really, there's a business case

16:12now. It's not just doing something because it's the right thing to do — you need people, you need to find strategies, you need to find untapped pools of talent where you can find and develop people. But to circle back to your question a little bit and connect more of what we do to that labour shortage — which is kind of the big item — and not just a big problem with

16:41you know, most of our listeners — it's a construction podcast, but we've got lots of people that are in finance, in law, and all kinds of things around the realm of construction, which doesn't really exclude anything. Yeah. I mean, this is something that's a problem across the country. Tourism, hospitality — I always tell one story. A year or so ago I was going through — I was in Bayers Lake, going through a drive-through, I think it was an A&W maybe — and I was at

17:09the drive-through, speaking into the thing to get my order in, and it has a literally handwritten piece of paper on the drive-through that says, "We're short-staffed. You can try — you're gonna wait — we might be here. If someone responds, great. If not, you know, sorry." We don't — that's funny. So it's certainly not just construction, though. It's definitely had a pretty significant impact on the construction industry, but I think everyone's kind of feeling the

17:36pinch. Whether you want to call it a labour shortage or a skills shortage, either way it's tough — it's really tough to find the people that businesses need to do the work. And I feel bad sometimes — over the last couple of years I'm talking with some contractors who, you know, they're not necessarily bidding on projects because they're not confident — the risk is too great — that they're going to have the people they need to do the work. So

18:06fortunately, part of what we do at Fairwinds is we're able to help — we're able to provide support. I'll say not necessarily to overcome the challenge, because that's a really hard thing to overcome, but certainly to mitigate and find strategies to limit that challenge. Specifically, we do a ton of talent attraction, recruitment, selection. Just to give you an example of how

18:42we promote ourselves a lot of the time — we're able to operate as that extension, or that branch, that arm of HR for organizations that don't have those resources, whether it's no HR department or whatever it may be. And for example, I've been working pretty closely with one employer over the past few months — I won't mention their name — but a locally started business, now a national

19:16supplier of HVAC and refrigeration. This is a company that experienced a ton of growth in their business throughout the pandemic and post-pandemic — but growing pains to go along with that. And they were also at the same time experiencing a lot of generational turnover. The managers who are ultimately responsible for doing a lot of the hiring have so much on their plates that they're not able to commit the time to kind of filling that

19:49talent pipeline. So what we're able to do is literally partner with that organization and take all of that on on their behalf — straight from job analysis and job description development, to ad placement and promotion, all the way to job offer and contract negotiations, resume screening — and then after that process is done and a hire's made, you're also helping them with retention and solving the turnover problem with training, so that these employees are

20:25working toward what they need for the organization and the long-term goals. And so you've really got your arms wrapped around a company when you do engage in that regard. Yeah, absolutely. And I'm glad you brought that up too, because I think that's a piece that sometimes gets lost when looking at the challenges, the labour challenges that a lot of employers are facing. It's not just about bringing them to the door. I mean, you're far past that. Your best

20:52recruitment strategy by far is a retention strategy. And it's that old saying that people don't quit their job — they quit their boss. So we do a ton of work working with different companies, specifically helping them build capacity with their frontline managers — helping them be better coaches, be better management staff. Right? So you're not just training the employees that are hired and working their way towards the skills they need within the organization — you're training the upper management. Exactly. And upper management

21:25yes, and we certainly do executive coaching and work with upper management. But we do a lot of work with frontline supervisors or new managers. A lot of the time, because I think that is especially important in the construction world — I think something we come up against quite often, and I'm sure it happens in other industries as well, is that people who progress on sometimes to a position of management or supervision — it seems to happen a lot of the time, not necessarily

21:56because they have those management skills, but because they're really proficient at something technical, you know what I mean? So this fella is great at operating this piece of equipment, great employee — we're going to move him or her up to a supervisory position. And if you think about that — I always like to think it's not necessarily common sense — it's a completely different skill set, right? Yeah. And if you think about it in the opposite scenario, imagine if you were to take a skilled

22:27manager — someone who's really good at managing people, good at coaching and providing feedback, all the stuff these kinds of people are good at — not highly skilled at one technical thing. Yeah. But again, if you imagine if you took that person and said, you know, you're really good at that, let's put you behind the controls of this piece of equipment. Yeah, you'd be going crazy. Yeah. But we do it sometimes in the opposite direction. So I think it's really, really important — it's something

22:54that we do quite a bit — focusing on building capacity with those managers. Yeah. So many complex decisions to make within an organization. And having that third-party — well, call it third-party, which it is — having that assistance. And even when I look at, you know, I can rhyme off a few of the different topics on some of the training programs: team development, personal development, communication skills, conflict management, dealing with difficult people, do I want to be a leader, leading change,

23:23managing for results, motivating, personal effectiveness, coaching, time management. I mean, some people looking at these things might think, oh, here we go, kind of a cliche kind of stuff. But anyone who's owned a business or been in a position where they've had to make decisions — and it's hard, and sometimes making the right one around these kinds of things — are so important. I mean, absolutely they are, just no question

23:48about it. And again, making that construction connection with all of us — one thing I used to hear quite a bit when working with contractors or working with employers would be some version of: we can teach someone how to do this trade, whatever it may be. We can teach that — don't get me wrong, it's not easy — but we can teach someone how to be an electrician. Yeah. We can't necessarily teach someone, or it's more difficult, I would say,

24:17to teach someone to have emotional intelligence, or to be a really effective communicator, or to be comfortable with difficult conversations. Yeah. So yeah, I mean, I would argue those are the key skills, the core competencies in any occupation. You just hit it on the head too, because you're not going to be a leader or stick your neck out in any way unless you're willing to deal with things impacting your emotional intelligence — having difficult conversations, probably the biggest thing, because they're hard.

24:51Absolutely. You have to have them, because they don't go away. You have to have them, and you do need skills to do it. And these are skills you can learn. It doesn't have to be embedded in you. You know, some people — there's temperament, there's everyone's psychological makeup — but these are skills you can learn. Oh, absolutely, you can learn them, you can practice them. You just need a little bit of help sometimes getting there, for sure. And I think of even myself — I

25:17think in my career progression, I'm someone who struggles personally with having difficult conversations. But it's something even through my experience preparing as a trainer and as a facilitator, coaching other people to be able to do that, I've even been able to learn and practice those skills. Oh yeah, definitely helps you personally when you've been in that terrain all the time. Yeah. I struggle with that all the time too. And any time I've had a hard conversation

25:47I've never regretted the intent of it and the courage to go have it. Yeah. And it's more about — I'm just going to give an opinion here, it's something very subjective — but it's not so much that I don't know if it'll come out right, I don't know exactly how. And that's the hardest part to get over. I'm not sure how it's going to go, but if I just do it — yeah — even though I could have said things differently, could have done way better,

26:17it's always a good feeling after, you know. And usually even if it's just a start, where the tension gets a little less or whatever the problem is — you look at the problem and not the person you're across the table from. You're separating that. Yeah, yeah. And there are strategies, there are techniques, things you can practice. One thing we're big on is this four-step process for coaching feedback that we use in

26:46so many of our programs, which is — it's almost a script that I used to have taped up on my desk. Yeah. And that script is: this is what I saw, this is the expectation, give me your side of it, and what can we do now to work together to build a plan to improve upon. So even just having a system or a script, at least a navigated — you know, literally you would

27:17insert issue here. Yeah, you know. And it's so helpful in those situations. It is. And I can just — if people are listening in as you say that — a lot of times you hear that and you think it sounds so simple, and maybe even silly. It sounds silly, but yeah, that's the kind of territory you're in. When you're in that territory, you're going to feel really vulnerable, almost. You're still going to feel like a little kid. You don't know

27:40how you're — what you're supposed to do, how do I deal with this, how do I get started. But it's just those very simple checkpoints. That's right. Sounds too simple. Having a script — yeah, almost just having a template there to kind of start and have those conversations. And so much of it as well — it's something that we do quite a bit — is making the connections with emotional intelligence and understanding

28:06ourselves before being able to work to understand others, which is the next step. Getting a good understanding of who I am, where my strengths are, where I struggle — again, things like maybe difficult conversations. Just by knowing and becoming aware that that's a challenge area for me, it's something I need to work on. I'm able to adapt and adjust how I arrive in some of those certain situations. Yeah,

28:37100%. I think emotional intelligence is something — I don't know if you've ever heard of Daniel Goleman? I have, yeah. He gives some TED talks and writes a lot of books on emotional intelligence. He's kind of the guy — or one of the guys — on that. And just his statement jumped out at me: EI, emotional intelligence, is a far greater measure of who will make a good leader than IQ. Absolutely. And your IQ can be way up there, whatever, but

29:05I remember when he said that, I was thinking, I've got a lot of work to do with myself. And that's the hardest part, right? It's work, you know, to go inside and think of where am I weak in my emotional intelligence, where am I — but you're right, it's just self-awareness. It's a constant learning process, right? Like, why did I just react that way, what's this trigger? Yeah, you know. And even just being able to take a

29:33breath, take a step back, and think about something before responding. Right, yeah. And these are things that at Fairwinds we take pride in being able to help with. Yeah, you break it down, we break it down. We've got a number of really good assessment tools that we use. We're big supporters of DISC, Personality Dimensions, yeah. Using those assessments and tools and helping individuals gain that self-awareness and some of that

30:03emotional intelligence, and allowing them — giving them the tools to understand themselves and then be able to adjust and adapt to others, and ultimately hopefully be able to identify some of those traits in other people as well, so that you can customize your message. Quick shout-out to the newest sponsor of the show: The Stone Depot. The Stone Depot is located in Bayers Lake, Halifax, but serves all of the East Coast — a showroom over 8,000 square feet, perfect for masonry

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31:26unlimited support and a direct line to your account managers right here in Nova Scotia. Whether you're an established business looking for new options and increased efficiency, or a newer company looking to build a solid foundation for future growth, Pivot has a product that can be modified to your needs. Consider making the pivot today — book a free consultation at pivotbookkeeping.com. DISC stands for Dominance, Influence, Conscientiousness, and Steadiness. Yeah. No, it kind of reminds me of the Myers-Briggs model. There are other similar things, right? It's

31:55just a way of understanding where you fit in — it's not like putting people in a box, but understanding where you fit in the grand scheme of things. That's right, yeah. I mean, it would be very much your baseline. It's really just about — it comes down a lot of ways to — it's not to say that you can't, because as someone — I fall into kind of that S personality, which is that

32:21stabilizing, relationship-nurturing kind of personality. Yeah. That doesn't mean that if I work at it, I can't end up in that dominant position. And you probably should work at it, right? I think it's important to stretch. You're going to have your baseline, your things that are kind of core. Yeah. But the more you try and stretch out — you're going to grow. Maybe that one's really hard and you're never going to excel in that top corner here, but like

32:45yeah, it's not like you can't change those things either, right? No. It's just that it takes a little bit more energy for me to live in that quadrant. Yeah, I know exactly — it does take energy to live outside your natural one. Yeah. And then it comes to self-criticism, you know — you're right away thinking, it's kind of like labeling, right? Like, oh, I don't like how that looks, but I know it's true. You know what I mean? Like, everybody has

33:09their own way of — so you're looking in the mirror, it's not easy sometimes. Absolutely not. But the best leaders are able to do it. And it doesn't always — it's not necessarily something you're somewhat born with. It's a skill, like any other skill, which you can acquire and you can practice. And someone once said it's harder for a man to rule himself than an entire city or something. Yeah, I would agree with that.

33:36That's a good one. It's tough. Like you said, the best leaders do do that, and it takes a lot of courage to look inside because you're going to see things you don't like. Oh, absolutely, absolutely. No, I think a lot of people have done that in recent years — talking about the pandemic. Yeah, we were talking about that earlier. A little more time to self-reflect, is that what you're getting at? I think so, yeah. I think a lot of people — I mean, I

34:01would have thought the pandemic would have been the opposite — people would have been kind of holding on for dear life because of that uncertainty that existed. But I think instead it was the other way around. A lot of people took that time, whether at home with their families, to kind of reevaluate their priorities and reevaluate their current situation. We're forced to slow down when you're living at a pace that's almost inhuman, like a lot of us have to. So absolutely, yeah.

34:29It's the culture. No, this is great stuff. I mean, for business owners tuning in who haven't — I mean, most business owners now are really keen on engaging someone like Fairwinds Training and Development, or something like Traction, or some outside consultants, and having a good handle on this stuff. But if you're not doing it, it's just too hard to compete. Absolutely. With the hiring process, retention, the training — and we'd even get

35:01into succession now — you were talking about some examples. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, it's so hard, I think, for so many managers and owners — probably more so when we're talking about small to medium-sized businesses. It's so hard to get out of the day-to-day of running that business. You're immersed, you're in the field, you're just completely immersed. And you know, a lot

35:32of the time, yes, absolutely, we're good at what we do. But a lot of the time it's just the fact that I am able to commit my time to helping you fill position X, or to helping you coach this individual who's maybe almost disengaged and has a ton of potential but just isn't quite there, yeah. Right — not quite there yet. Yeah. And there's a lot of that, and I think if you don't bring

36:01someone in like yourself, someone like Fairwinds, there are all kinds of little gold nuggets there that you miss out on, right? Because you need that time — you don't have time to do all these things. Oh yeah, absolutely. And when you look at the labour market and the challenges that people are facing, it's funny — I remember when I would have first arrived at the Construction Association of Nova Scotia, in 2010, 2011, I can't quite recall,

36:32but I remember people were talking about these challenges that are coming down on us and we're going to feel it. You better prepare, you better start looking proactively at some workforce planning and your strategy around how you're going to overcome this, or again at least mitigate the problem. It wasn't close enough yet. There were a couple of down years in between that

36:56and it kind of just got brushed off a little bit, I think. But then it finally seems like over the last couple of years it really hit. And yeah, maybe it shouldn't have — it still caught people off guard. So I think it is — and again, I realize it's really important and it's difficult for an owner and for a manager to get out of that day-to-day — but there's got to be

37:24some sort of proactive strategy for filling that talent pipeline. Yeah, definitely, definitely. Especially when you're a business owner who's always looking two to five years down the road. I mean, yeah, it's constantly the territory you're thinking about, right? Yeah. And it's so — for good people, you think you have someone in there and then you've got to keep them once you have them, and they're probably going to

37:53yeah, people are getting poached here and there. It might be more pay, a better culture — who knows, right? Yeah. I mean, it's interesting — even just the timeline and how much that has tightened up from the perspective of, if you've got a candidate that you're putting forward to a client, if that's a strong candidate and you let them sit for a week while you're

38:21doing some stuff behind the scenes, they're going to get nabbed up pretty quickly. Yeah, no, it's such a competitive landscape all around, right. The state of — can we talk a little bit about succession? Just, you know, when a company has shareholders and — it could be generational, it could be retirement on the horizon, or other reasons too. I just think about how that would be possible for some companies, depending on

38:54the culture and the management team, how it would be possible to navigate that without some help. It's challenging. And it's not to say it's not a challenge for larger organizations, because it absolutely is. But it can be just as big a challenge for medium-sized, and I think it is the small to medium companies that Fairwinds helps as much, right? You guys are helping people as big

39:22as Dexter's and JD Irving, and then any company with two employees who needs a hand. Yeah, doesn't even need to be two employees — I mean, we're working with entrepreneurs through some of our partnerships and startups who, you know, it's one individual who's looking to start. But I think when you consider some of those small-to-medium enterprises and that succession planning piece — again, it's a really tough thing to do if you certainly don't know what

39:52you're doing. But absolutely, if you don't have the time or the resources to get into it. And I think because of that you are seeing some companies either get gobbled up by larger ones, or seeing some companies unfortunately just kind of disappear with, you know, Mom and Pop who were running it for so many years. But one thing that we're able to do — and again, it's not always

40:21easy — is connect and partner with a company and help them look a little bit more at that proactive strategic workforce planning piece, you know. Which is really looking at your business model, looking at where you want to go in the next however many years — whether it's two years, five years, whatever you think. And looking at: who are we going to need, what people,

40:58what skills are we going to need to get there? And then looking internally and externally, doing a bit of a workforce analysis and environmental scan — all right, these are the people and the skills we have inside. Yeah, even the job profile you're going to need — a senior marketing manager, absolutely, or a site super for this project next year. Absolutely. And this is the skill set you need, the experience level. Just to know that —

41:26that's just a start. Yeah. So you're looking at what we have inside, what's out there in the climate, in the labour market around us — and then what's the gap between what you're going to need to meet your business objectives and what is available. And then working on strategy from there. Whether it's a deficit or a surplus, that's going to impact your

41:54strategy — is it recruitment, is it training from within, whatever it might be? We're able to help organizations identify that strategy, help them develop it, help them implement it, and even help them monitor, assess, and adjust that strategy going forward. And just a lot of feedback. And you mentioned earlier one of the things Rick was doing at the time — he was doing training for CANS.

42:25And a lot of what Fairwinds does — you're tailoring training courses to different organizations, but you're also helping them set up their own training programs so that when your job is done they have an engine going to continue to train, continue to coach, and it's trickling down through the ranks. Yeah. I mean, ideally you're going to want that repeat business, but at the same time you want to leave them — once you've

42:53helped an organization, you want to leave them with the tools to be able to continue on and do it themselves. It's like the old saying — you know, give a man a fish you feed him for a day. I can't quite remember how it goes, but I was thinking of — train your employees well enough so they can leave, but treat them well enough so they stay. That's right. I like that. Yeah, we'll take that

43:16one. But you know, I mean, you mentioned groups like CANS — we've talked about them a number of times. Yes, we work with a lot of contractors, a lot of suppliers, service providers, manufacturers, but we've also been fortunate to reach a lot of individuals and also a lot of companies through some of the partnerships we've been able to develop — whether it's

43:49public sector stakeholders, not-for-profits, contractor associations, sector councils, whatever it may be. We've been fortunate to build relationships and partner with a lot of those groups and help them provide tools and training to their memberships. Yeah, and they need it so much, right? I mean, these smaller companies — it's tough to get things off the ground and it's tough when you don't have the resources in-house that some of the more medium-sized and bigger companies do.

44:20It's such a challenge, absolutely. And again, it would bring so much value to those — I mean, not that you don't bring value to everyone, and Fairwinds — you look at the testimonials, I mean you're helping companies from everything from JD Irving to people in the restaurant industry. Dirty Nellie's — got to give them a shout-out. But yeah, it's all across the board. But I feel like there's a certain size company where it carries even more weight, just because it's so hard to kind of get

44:50past that milestone, get to the next level where you do have — maybe you have sales and marketing and HR in place and at least you have some of those resources around you. Right? Don't — you're just stuck in your own head as an entrepreneur, or you're working 70 hours a week or whatever it might be. It's just not. And again, I believe very strongly in what we do. But a lot of it is just being able to be a devoted, committed

45:15resource — being that HR extension, that HR branch, that arm for your organization. And sales training is another thing, like I see under the different personal and team training programs we've talked about. But sales — there's a science to it, there's an art to it. I mean, a lot of people — we had Wolseley on for a recording recently, and a gentleman who worked a bit on the sites — I think he

45:47worked at Dexter's, and now he's in sales for HVAC and plumbing. So he kind of has that rapport with the guys on site, and you hear a lot of those stories. A lot of times the guys that make good can make that connection with the clientele, the kind of people you're dealing with. But if you haven't tried it, it's probably not something that you gave much thought to. But

46:12it can be such a grind. Absolutely. Knowing where to spend that mental energy and where not to spend it is probably the key orientation point to be successful. Because understanding the market, understanding who you're talking to, who they represent, what the opportunity is here — there's so much that goes into that. And even just having a system and a process in place. I find a lot of people in that sales and business development world don't

46:37always — they're kind of just winging it, kind of just learning about it. I mean, I've spent a number of years in sales and it was a great company I was with, but I was flying by the seat of my pants on a day-to-day basis. So even just having a process or a system that you can fall back on — and a proven system — exactly. And I think, like you say as well, it's — and again, this isn't specific just to construction, but

47:00it is certainly a challenge within the construction world — a lot of new salespeople coming in with great technical knowledge. Yeah, they've got great product knowledge, which is very important, absolutely important when dealing with architects and specs, no question. But again, if you don't have a process, if you don't have a baseline or a system that you can fall back on, you're kind of

47:28flying by the seat of your pants. And that's something that Rick specifically — that's one of his areas of expertise, on that business development side. He's worked with a lot of businesses around Atlantic Canada and even further, helping them increase their sales. Yeah. And he's so passionate, and like you said, high energy, very charismatic. And even when it comes to closing — you know, you hear a lot of that, it's always in the movies and different sayings, right, like you know,

47:55you've got to close. Yeah, that's a good film, lots of good actors. But even that — emotional intelligence plays into that a lot, and knowing when to push. If you push at the wrong time, it's all over. Yeah, too early, way too early. But knowing, okay, this is where things are going, and those windows of contact — has it been too long, should I reach out again — all those little things add up.

48:18They do, they are important. Right? And you've got to understand not just your market and your technical products or services you're selling, but you've got to understand people. And there's a lot that goes into that. And I'm sure Rick — I mean, like I said, I haven't talked to Rick that much, but you have the same qualities too. Just to be able to deal with people, and to really get better at that you need someone training you, you need to be practicing different things. It's like

48:43the old saying — a lot of people as servers — and in larger municipalities, larger cities, even in a place like Halifax sometimes, they'll stay because the money's so good. But how they pick those employees — a lot of times these high-end restaurants will have the individual come in, and they'll get them to go and

49:14sit at different tables, and they've got it set up, and they're role-playing. But can they carry on a conversation with a table full of — we'll say type-A, a bit of elitism — and then can they go over and talk to this blue-collar crowd over here, and how do they navigate? And that's how they hire them. And this is what sales is. Can you talk to all these different kinds of people? Yeah, absolutely, no question. And again, you mentioned

49:42type-A, and making that connection back to the personality profiles that we use quite a bit. I mean, that's a part of it — not just understanding yourself certainly, but being able to, once you get good at it, pick up on other people's intuition, personalities as well. Understanding what might motivate this type of person, what are they

50:11going to respond to versus this type of personality. There's a ton of value in that. Yeah, there is, man. I love talking about this stuff because I feel like you can really dive in. It's bringing to mind all these past experiences. Yeah, you know, that's what's happening here. So yeah, can we talk at all about maybe some of the companies within construction that you've been working with, that you've worked with in the past?

50:38I know Rick's got lots of stories. You mentioned Dexter's earlier — can we talk about some of those scenarios, and like, kind of what's happening there? Yeah, certainly. I mean, we've worked with large contractors, the likes of Dexter Construction, the likes of some JD Irving companies, but also working with smaller contractors as well — local companies like Bruno Builders, we've done some work with Jetco Contracting. I mean,

51:08dozens if not hundreds of different companies. And it's interesting — although all organizations have some similarities, and there are certain programs that you could call a little more generic — even though we do customize a lot of what we do — at the same time there are programs that are a little bit more tailored. Certain parts of the

51:37industries we talk about. We talked about business development and the sales training — we've had a lot of uptake with that specifically when working with suppliers, when working on the wholesale distribution side of things. Again, when you're getting individuals coming into sales roles with lots of technical knowledge, organizations look to us and we're able to help them develop more of that business development, that sales side. When looking at

52:09working with a lot of contractors — a lot of the work that we do with contractors is more along what we were talking about earlier, which is helping them build capacity in their management group. So more often than not, we do a lot of work with frontline managers, with new managers. And it's not just training and development — we do a lot of coaching as well, one-on-one type coaching. It could be with a

52:38team, it could be in follow-up to training, it could be as part of a performance management program that we're helping them put in place. So that would be kind of the supplier side of things, the contractor side of things. And again, we do quite a bit of work with public sector organizations, associations, whatever it may be. When working with a lot of those groups, a lot of what we're doing is more focused on

53:10planning — whether it's strategic planning, whether it's workforce planning, succession planning. A lot of the work we do with those groups is helping them develop templates and tools that they can then pass on, and helping them create a road map for the future. Yeah, right. And even one of the services you provide under surveys and assessments and

53:45whatnot — it's just like corporate protocols, employee conduct, these kinds of things. Right? I mean, it's important when you have large corporations, your company's growing up to 50, 100, 200, 300 employees — you have to have protocols in place. Simple things. I mean, you start a business, things take off on you, and then you realize we don't even have any HR policies in place. What are our policies right now? Everybody hates that word, right? I mean, yeah, but it's got to be there. We've got no performance

54:14management process in place at all. Working with businesses on anything HR related — certainly, even just to assess the performance, assess the performance. Yeah, we can do it for them. I worked with one local contractor I can think of now — essentially we built their entire performance management program, all the way from literally developing job descriptions to developing templates for their

54:46performance reviews and performance planning, and everything connected to that. Yeah. What would you say, as an associate here with Fairwinds — what's the most rewarding part for you personally? I mean, you get to know these companies as you work with them, and I'm assuming a lot of the time it's a few months, a lot of times a few years or more. Yeah. And you constantly kind of have the inside scoop, and it's pretty exclusive. It must be — obviously challenging, but rewarding when you see that you're able to bring that value and get them over that hump and through that milestone. Yeah, that they

55:15couldn't have got there without you. But they needed your help with it, right? Yeah, absolutely. An example from this week actually pops out, to be perfectly honest. Story time! Story time, yeah, exactly.

55:45Doing some leadership training with a local contractor. I did a module several weeks ago with them on conflict management, and then returned yesterday, as a matter of fact, doing a second module on another topic — I believe we were looking at motivation and accountability. But even just as part of the process, recalling and looking back on the session — we always like to do a little bit of recall whenever we're doing a training program. Asking questions, you know, is

56:20anybody able to apply something we learned from our last session to your day-to-day over the past week or two weeks, whatever the time frame is between modules? And to have someone in the room put their hand up and say, well, yeah, actually, through some of the skills, some of the things that we learned in that session, I was able to have a difficult conversation with one of my team members — one that I really

56:51would have struggled with otherwise. I was able to use some of the tools that you gave me to have that conversation, and it worked out, it went really, really well. So hearing that, getting those kinds of stories from individuals, is certainly rewarding. Personal growth, and it's team building at the same time. Yeah, absolutely. And a sense of — whenever you're training, you're up in front of people in the room. You do feel like you're helping people, you give them

57:16information, you get a lot of stuff across, but you're not always 100% certain what those individuals are taking away. When they do take something away and they're able to express that, and it actually helped them in their day-to-day — it's a rewarding feeling. Yeah. And I would say as well, on the talent attraction side of things, there are certainly some rewarding elements there. Certainly being able to help the client find the right person,

57:44the right person, yeah. Not just the skill set, but the fit for the culture, the fit for the team. Absolutely, they're looking for long-term — you know, all that kind of stuff. Tough, a lot of variables there to fill. Absolutely. But even the connection with the individual — from that reward side of things — you get to know a candidate for a position, you get their resume, you have to

58:14do a telephone screening with them, you have an interview with them, you do a job-fit assessment, maybe you facilitate a second or third round — and you start to feel a connection with these candidates, of course. Yeah, they're in transition, it's an important time, a stressful time. And you hear their stories, and then being able to connect with that individual with — having that phone call saying, you know, we'd like to offer you the position of whatever it may be — it's genuine, yeah,

58:41excitement. It's a good feeling. Oh, that's great. And going back to that analogy of comparing sports to business, and how it's such an easy connection with training and development — it kind of speaks for itself. But what would you say, as far as — you played football at

59:11a high level, university, coached, you've been a coach in different sports. How has that helped you in your work life and in your career journey — at CANS and obviously now with Fairwinds? Yeah, just a little personally for you. I know I can rhyme off all the lessons I've learned in sports too, but just a few comments on how the lessons you've learned in sports have kind of

59:42helped you in the role you're in. I think one of the biggest ones that always comes to mind is the ability to take feedback — whether it's coaching, whether it's constructive criticism. I think that's one of the biggest things. You learn that from an early age, all the way through. And being able to apply that to my work life.

60:14I've had performance reviews the same as anyone — I've had failures, I've had successes. But being able to take that feedback and respond to it in a productive way would be one of the biggest takeaways for me. And another one would be kind of the emotional intelligence, from your perspective, but also trying to get a sense of others as well. And through that, being able to adapt or adjust how you

60:52communicate, how you work with that individual. And I say that because one of the best coaches I ever had — his name, yeah — it was Coach Neil, with the Huskies. One thing I always thought he was really good at is he could just — his approach with different players. With one player, there were players that he could sense he had to maybe shout and scream and do

61:22all that stuff, and they'd respond well to that. And then he saw and knew that there were others who needed a slightly different approach — they're not necessarily going to respond that way. And he was able to adapt and make that adjustment. You hear that about coaches. You know, guys like Jon Cooper in Tampa — he had a pretty good post-game last night. Yeah, sorry to interrupt. No, no, absolutely. But you hear about some of

61:51those guys. I think I see it sometimes — I'm a Steelers fan, so you see it with Mike Tomlin and the Steelers. But again, it's that ability to adjust and adapt how you arrive based on the individual. And it's not, ultimately, how you want to lead — it's how that individual needs you. Right, yeah. Well, that's great. Thanks for sharing that. Is there anything else on behalf of Fairwinds, or something we didn't touch on,

62:20that you want to mention? I mean, we touched on quite a few different things. Sure. No, just — I think I'd be remiss if I didn't plug us and what we do. And we've got a great team, we've got a great leadership group — certainly Rick and Brenda, the Yoda and the Obi-Wan of the

62:46profession, for the long term in our neck of the woods. If there are any employers out there right now who need some help or are looking, please reach out. You can get us at fairwindstraining.com. All of our contact info is there. You can get me at Alain — A-L-A-I-N — at fairwindstraining.com. Always looking for opportunities to connect. And certainly no costs associated with having a meeting, consulting, a chat. And even if it's

63:25just networking, connecting — always up for that as well, for sure. We'll put those handles and tags and all of our content going out. And yeah, I hope that contractors, owners of businesses of any kind that are listening in and need some help with any of these important items — I will actually — I do want to add one more. Absolutely, take your time. Add something else — again, in a

63:51minute — but anyhow, I do want to recognize what you're doing here. I mean, this is such a fantastic thing for the industry — bringing the awareness, bringing the knowledge out there. I've kind of watched it grow over the last couple of years and I think it's fantastic. And there really are — one thing I love about the construction industry is there are so many phenomenal people and so many groups out

64:21there doing fantastic work as well, on behalf of the industry. I mean, we've talked about CANS a number of times — they've got a great group over there. The Nova Scotia Construction Sector Council — Trent Soholt and his team over there — they're doing fantastic work. NSCC, the Nova Scotia Apprenticeship Agency, the Department of Education — there are so many groups out there right now, everyone doing their part. Yeah, so important, everyone plays a big role to keep this ship

64:53going. Yeah, and I think it's fantastic. And I see the partnerships, and I'm a big fan of that and I love seeing it. And I just wanted to recognize that a little bit. Yeah, for sure. You said you might have had two — I think that was — I think there were two things. And one more. Funny — a lot of times people right after they leave, they're like, oh, I forgot to say. You know, but that's pretty

65:19normal. But no, thank you, Alain, for the kind words. And I couldn't agree with you more — all those important parties in the industry doing their part. It's a fun industry to be part of, and it's definitely been a pleasure. Well, thank Rick and Brenda — Rick and Brenda at Fairwinds Training and Development — just for connecting with us and engaging with us and being here. Been a great conversation. Yeah, really great, again. Our pleasure. I really appreciate the opportunity. Awesome, thanks. Cheers. This episode is brought to you by Cook

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