Solar Cladding as a Cladding Replacement: BIPV, Rainstick Water Recycling, and Atlantic Canada Sales Strategy | Barry Osmun, AzSpecd Solutions

0:03Okay, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Today we have Barry Osmun, founder and president of AzSpecd Solutions, a construction sales agency specializing in renewables. Barry is a graduate from St. Thomas University with a Bachelor of Arts, and also I think you have an MBA from University of Phoenix — and that was something you did online, Barry. Yeah, yeah. People always ask me why the University of Phoenix, and I got two reasons: it was cheap, and a lot of times your MBA

0:38has to be done in two years. University of Phoenix allowed me to stretch it out over four years, so when you're working full-time, that was a great option. So yeah — and you've got 35 years of sales experience in construction: 15 years at Shaw Brick, four years with Pella Windows, and then Stone Depot. So you've worked in glazing, cladding, masonry — you've got the whole building

1:07envelope side pretty much covered at this point. Yeah, I did, actually. My very first job out of St. Thomas was in the roofing business — that was my first sales job, and I guess it opened the door to how I got into construction sales. I took an inside sales job with a company called Marathon Equipment. They were a Toronto company, and Dan, you must remember those big old orange kettles they used to use for roofing to boil the tar.

1:38Well, that's what they made. I don't know — this is before my time. I don't... yeah, yeah, yeah. I want to say yesterday. Yeah, just not — just not — yeah. Anyway, there's still a few kicking around, but that was their claim to fame. And you know, so I got into that and a little bit into specifications, and they did torch-on roofing and that type of thing. So that was kind of when

2:08I was at St. Thomas. I had always thought that I was probably going to go into teaching — that was my thing. It's just funny how the world goes. This was the early-to-mid '80s. I started out with my BA, and the intention was to go back after I got my BA — at the time you could go back for one year and get your B.Ed. So I thought, you know what, I'm going to be a teacher. So I started majoring

2:38in English, and I was going to teach English — loved English. But about halfway through my second year, every time I picked up the paper it was like "50 teachers laid off, 100 teachers laid off." We were going through that stretch, and I was thinking, you know what, I'd better switch gears here pretty quick because I've got student loans to pay. So I ended up with a double major. After my second year I started

3:08taking economics credits, so I ended up with a major in economics and English. Yeah, kind of fell into my first sales job. You're not the first sales guy or business development guest we've had that had a Bachelor of Arts — there's been a couple. You know, it's amazing. And I'm glad you said that, because I remember when I decided to take my BA, people saying — my mother included — "What are you going to do with the BA?

3:42What's that going to get you?" And I said, "I don't know — it's going to get me an education." And what the BA really gave me was just a well-rounded — I like to say almost like a high school education that I didn't get, you know — a well-rounded education that allowed me

4:06to put logical arguments together, and to back up what I'm saying. And I can do a great presentation now, and I couldn't before that. So there's a lot to be said for that. There's a lot to drill into there, because I think — well, it's like the Boston Consulting Company says: the best investment you can make over the course of your lifetime is education. That's never a waste, and even though maybe it's not as directed or specific as, you know, if

4:37you're going to be a doctor or an engineer or an architect — you're right, it kind of opens doors and gives you a broader base of knowledge. And then the fear level for things you had no radar for becomes less fearful, and all of a sudden you'll do a presentation or you'll — yeah — articulate yourself really well. Yeah, exactly. And I mean, here I am talking like I had a choice — funny story, how

5:05I ended up at St. Thomas. My childhood was a little bit tumultuous — my dad had cancer. I grew up in Miramichi, right in Miramichi, and my dad, about a month or so after I graduated from high school, died from suicide. Because of that, I decided I just had no idea what I wanted to do. Out of high school my marks were horrid — not because I wasn't smart, but I just

5:39didn't apply myself. I wasn't challenged. I was playing a lot of hockey, I was working at Kmart part-time, and with everything going on. So my marks were like — if 50 was a pass mark and I got 50, I was happy. I remember going over to interview with the registrar at St. Thomas, bringing my transcript in and sitting down. I'm sweating like a cat in a rocking

6:12chair factory, right. And he's not saying anything — he's looking at me, he's looking at my marks, and ten minutes went by in silence. Finally he says, "These aren't very good, Mr. Osmun, are they?" I said, "No, they're not." He said, "I assume you have an explanation." So I just laid it all out. He said, "You know what, I'll tell you what I'm going to do — I'm going to let you in on academic

6:45probation." So I was on probation right from the get-go — usually it takes you a year to earn academic probation; I was given that standard before I even stepped foot on campus. You were a good salesman even back then. So he said, "You know, if you don't have at least — I think it was a C+ equivalent in GPA at Christmas — when you go home at Christmas, if you don't have that GPA" — of 3.0 or — yeah, yeah — "take your stuff with

7:14you; you're not coming back." So I said, "Well, that's fair — all I want is a chance." He said, "Okay, I'm giving you that chance." So I remember going home and telling my mom what he had said, and she said, "Well, I guess I won't give up your room just yet then" — just in case, just in case. And listen, in fairness to my mom, God love her — I mean, I'd never given her any reason up to then to think otherwise. So

7:43yeah, so here you are now with your own business. Yeah, my own business and MBA. But yeah, long story short, I got there and learned how to apply myself, and the rest is history. So tell us about AzSpecd Solutions and your whole goal — you started in 2018, but you're really focused on energy-efficient materials, and obviously that's very important and key to the industry right now. It's something

8:15that's involved in every project and it's front and center of mind, no matter the sector — public, private, residential, commercial. Just tell us a little bit about the journey of how you started AzSpecd and the vision. Yeah, so my first venture into entrepreneurship was 2018. I left Stone Depot and was wondering what I was going to do, and so decided to take the plunge. I talked to a couple of companies that

8:48were looking for manufacturer's reps down here and were willing to give me a little support. So I started that, basically as a manufacturer's rep — represented Indiana Limestone, a company named Boldu Concrete out of Quebec that does concrete pavers and that type of thing. So I did that for a little while. I'd been working with a company called Sunny We out of Toronto — they were a husband-and-wife team of engineers that owned their own company, and they're Chinese-Canadian.

9:29So I partnered up with them just previous to COVID, and then COVID hit. At the time we were importing all of our products in from China. We were doing a lot of aluminum panels — I don't know if you're familiar with the new Lion's Head in the north end that was just built. Well, those are our panels on the Lion's Head. That was going well, and then COVID hit, so we had to look at different

10:03options. As any business did at that time, you had to pivot quickly. So we started importing PPE of all things, and I didn't know a face mask from a nitrile glove — that was not my business. But we had good, strong connections in China, feet on the ground over there. You've probably heard the horror stories — it was like the Wild West. PPE at that time truly was. I mean, we were

10:35sourcing products and getting them to the airport, and you actually had to — we had an employee over there following the truck to the airport to make sure it wasn't hijacked by somebody else, because what was happening, it was all going to the highest bidder. So somebody would come in and say, "Hey, what'd they pay you?" They would go to the factories and see all the boxes of masks stacked up. "What did Barry pay for those

11:04masks? 50 cents? Oh, we'll give you 60." Now all of a sudden they're calling you saying, "Oh, well your shipment's been delayed." So that's the type of thing that was going on. We were able to do some really good things — we shipped a lot of masks to the province of New Brunswick to help them out at a time where they were just struggling to get material and reliable stuff. But that passed, and

11:33I had always had a passion for the environment and the climate. I was aware of things that were happening as far as the climate goes. Tell us about your LEED certification — you are LEED-certified, right? I am LEED-certified, yeah. So I guess that was my introduction into building better and that type of thing. Learned a lot about R-values and insulation and building properly. Yeah, so LEED

12:04certification was probably the predecessor of a lot of the things that we're doing now. LEED is — I don't want to call it obsolete, but it's almost — there's so many things that have passed since then, like green building and passive houses and that type of thing. Which is a term used in commercial construction as well. It is, yeah. And so I took my LEED certification — I think it was just about 2000 — started taking those courses, and that

12:41you know, I had known from my days in the brick business and that type of thing, I had known about R-values, and my time with Pella Windows taught me a lot about glazing and that type of thing. You've got a well-rounded envelope knowledge base — everything, yeah. So I wanted to take it and see how it all fit together, and what LEED really did was bring all of that together. We talked about

13:07simple rain-screen systems, we talked about vinyl siding. Let's talk about rain-screen systems for a second, because I think a lot of people who are working with building-envelope companies — or even if it's just a smaller cladding contractor — they're always thinking, "What's that rain screen? Was there a screen on the back of those panels?" Well, obviously it's just the system, right? The panel is out from the wall with an air space, and there's a place for the rain to fall behind the cladding system in front of

13:32the wall assembly. Exactly. And you could even call masonry a rain screen — it's always been a rain screen, because you've got your clips, and you always have an air space behind it. So it is a rain screen. The whole assembly is a rain screen. Yeah, people think because you're putting up a brick or masonry wall there's no water penetrating — I can tell you there is, and that's why they

13:57leave the weep holes on the bottom. But I've been in meetings before talking to the manufacturer and the estimators, and they'd say, "Well, these are rain screen — there must be a screen on the back of the panel. How much does that cost? We've got to allow a few dollars a square foot for the rain..." The whole thing's a rain screen. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing — a rain-screen system is the most basic. I mean,

14:21I'd bet 80% of buildings now are rain-screen systems of some sort. You drive around Halifax and see a lot of these developments going up — whether they're ceramic tiles, aluminum, or brick — those are all basic rain-screen systems. So a rain-screen system is basically what the builder's doing: he's making the building airtight with the blue skin, and then whatever system goes after that

14:53is there to filter the water to fall down. The water actually gets behind it — that's how the whole system works. The air gets back there and keeps things dry. That type of thing. I think it's good to clarify that, because as simple as it sounds after you talk about it, it does confuse people who aren't quite sure. It's just — it seems silly to you because it is, and it's probably

15:22the most efficient system we have. Architects love it. I think it's easy for architects to design, and from a builder's or a building owner's point of view, it's economical and easy to build. So yeah, at the end of the day — and now we're starting to see, so you've got two options with the rain-screen system. A lot of the guys are putting the insulation still on the inside wall, and then

15:55yeah, exactly. And some builders or architects prefer something like a rigid insulation — you see that spec a lot, like a board insulation cavity, Roxul. You're starting to see that within the girt. But you still have that air space — you still need that air space behind to let everything breathe. So like I said, probably 80% of what you're building now is a rain-screen system. Well, tell us about your partnerships with

16:24AzSpecd — I think we talked a little bit before we went live about — am I saying it right? Mitrex? Yeah, Mitrex. I always want to call it "Metrics" — that's really cool. People listening will be really interested in solar — well, it's an architectural panel, but aesthetically the same, yet it's a solar panel in itself. Tell us. Yeah, so when I first decided to go into renewables, I didn't have a

16:53product line. Dan, I'm just sitting there thinking, "Okay, what am I doing?" If you're going to do renewables — you'd had 50 lines over your 30 years before, exactly. But they really didn't fit that renewable portfolio direction that I wanted to go in. So I was still dabbling in those, thank God, because I had to pay the bills. But I remember sitting watching the news with my wife one night and they had this interview with this CEO from this company in Toronto

17:24called Mitrex, and he was talking about this revolutionary new system that could completely clad buildings — cladding, windows, whatever — that would generate solar. And I immediately said to my wife, "I have to call these guys first thing tomorrow." Didn't your son say something to you too? He's in New Brunswick — he's an engineer. Yeah, well he was kind of the guy that pushed me onto it. We were sitting down having beer and wings and — different generations

17:56than I am. He's more in tune with the environment and climate change — that's how he was raised. And he said to me, "You know, with your experience, your connections, and your architectural background, you could do so much good with these new products that are coming out." Because he would come at it — he came out with a Bachelor of Engineering, and there would have been, obviously at that time,

18:26environmental and sustainability courses that would be mandatory. Absolutely. And he came up in the social-media era as well, where he's being bombarded with the world's issues — the world's changing, sea levels are rising, everything. So yeah, it was after dinner with him, and I'm driving back, and — I don't like to use the word "epiphany" because it seems so cliché, but it was a bit of an epiphany. I was driving back from Fredericton to Halifax, and I just said, you know,

18:59he's right. I'd always thought about renewables and considered it in the past, but it didn't challenge me, Dan, because what I saw in the renewable sector wasn't exciting. You saw these great big wind turbines turning, and solar was a few ugly black glass panels on the roof of a house, and I said, "I can't really do anything with that." But then I got researching and you

19:36just made the connection — all the commercial building products that are — yeah, I said, "I see an opportunity here." So Mitrex — like I said, watching their news interview and what they were talking about. So they basically came up with — this is what's called

20:02building-integrated — it's a form of BIPV, but the difference is that theirs is actually integrated into the building. They've come up with technology — it started with our good friend Elon Musk at Tesla, who started the Tesla roof and that type of thing. And so these guys took that technology to the next level and beyond, did the testing and the proof of concept, and everything. So

20:41yeah, the exciting thing is now we can completely clad a building in this technology and have it generating power for the building. Aesthetically, it just looks like normal cladding. I mean, you know — you might have a wood grain printed on there, a brick pattern, anything. As a bit of a social experiment, I was in to see an architect last week and I just brought this sample, and I

21:14didn't tell them what it was — I just said, "This is a new cladding. What do you think?" And she was, "Oh my God, that's gorgeous. I would love that on my building. I would use that any time." And then I said, "Well, what if I told you we could wire it up and it could generate solar?" And she was just blown away. That's the tagline right there. Yeah, that's the tagline — like the infomercial: "But wait, there's more." So let's look at it from a few different

21:41perspectives. If you're a contractor and you have 20 guys working on the site and they're all cladding installers for the last 10 or 15 years — this is no different. They don't have to go get a special course. It's not a ziggurat — no, it's a simple panel that's been around for years. What they call a honeycomb panel — this sample here, they just put a little wax over it

22:05so you don't cut yourself — but it's basically an aluminum honeycomb rain-screen system that sits on a Z-girt and uses a clip system. So can it be cut on site?

22:20It's all prefab. Yeah, the commercial stuff is all done off of shop drawings. So you're not cutting that stuff with a wet saw — no. And the residential stuff, if you wanted to put some cladding on your home — that's all one size. I think it's like a four-by-eight sheet; you put it up and then put your vinyl or whatever trim around it.

22:50But commercially, everything's cut to the shop drawing. So conceivably — and you know how these things work — everything should arrive in the crate, all numbered to match the shop drawings, and just snap them up into place. No waste factor on that. No waste factor at all. So the installers really like it, because it makes their job easy. As long as they can follow blueprints, they can snap these up. So what about a steel stud wall assembly — but

23:22what if it's concrete? So what you do is core-drill, so you can run the electrical through the wall assembly. Yeah, you do. And you said you've got a job going on with SMU right now. Yeah, we just signed on with SMU — the old Loyola building. And that's interesting — that's a nice segue into something else you can do with this product. So I had thought when I took it on it was just for new construction,

23:44but it's as much — or maybe more so — for retrofit. So the Loyola building is an old, kind of '70s precast-type building, and what's happened is they've put up newer buildings around it, so Loyola was getting a little tired-looking. Exactly that '70s feeling. So Peter Connell is the architect at DSRA, and what we're going to do is

24:19clad two sides of that in this cladding. And to what you spoke about, we're going to have to core-drill for the wires — every four feet at the perimeter, roughly, depending on the design. It's not a big thing. So did you work that into the spec? I'm assuming you took the road through the architect to get that in the spec, and now it's — yeah. Mitrex did a lot of the

24:49leg work here. Yeah, exactly — they've got a really good support system. So are you seeing Mitrex products like this in many specs for public tenders around HRM and Atlantic Canada? It's more and more — you're going to see it. It's just starting, because like any new product there's the "show me" factor. It's almost too good to be true, or — well, you'd be a great showpiece if you're on a university campus. It would be

25:20great. It'd be a great showpiece. And so conceivably, the plan with SMU is — we should, between the two sides of the building that we're doing plus replacing some of the windows with solar — be able to generate enough power in that building to do their common areas, their lobby lighting and heat, and their combinations — exactly, exactly. And that's going to be huge. Any numbers off the top of your

25:48head for, like, square foot of cladding converted to kilowatts? It depends on the application, yeah — depends on how much sun you're getting. And both sides of SMU's are on the south side? They are, yeah. So solar cladding is typically about 22% efficient — that's kind of the bar that's been set, so that's what you want to strive for. Now, interesting caveat when it comes to

26:22cladding — that's the capacity factor, right? Exactly. But solar actually has a higher capacity factor than most renewable energy. It has the highest capacity. The exciting thing is, Dan, that even in the case of a retrofit — but especially in new construction — I always tell guys, "How much is it?" And I'll throw a number out, but I say, "What were you planning on using there?" "Well, we were thinking about using ACM." "Well, what was your ACM going to

26:58cost you installed? Between fifteen and twenty dollars to buy it, and then... yeah, probably — let's say thirty dollars in the wall." "So what's the stuff?" So you were going to spend that. So this stuff here, it's probably going to cost you about $50 — but it's going to give you a payback. And the payback's not just with the energy and lighting costs. I mean, you're going to get more points as far as your footprint, and

27:29there are grants — government grants out there that are going to offset that. I guess the point I'm making is what you need to do is say, "This is not an add-on — it's a replacement." So you don't lose anything aesthetically if you're the architect. Well, no — exactly. And a lot of times you gain. I don't want to point fingers, but some of the stuff that's going on buildings right now is economical, but it's not the most attractive. If you're an

27:59installer putting up ceramic, as opposed to that — that stuff can be between five and twelve pounds a square foot, where this stuff's only about half a pound. So it should be easier for the installers. Yeah, so if the developer or the architect — what's masonry going for now? That must be upwards of $40 a square foot. I haven't been in that business for a while, but let's say $35. So you were going to spend $35 on masonry — well, for $15

28:34more you can have this and have a payback. So the way I approach it is: you're not going to pay $50 or $60 a square foot — you were going to pay for masonry anyway, so this is just replacing what you were going to clad with anyway. It's a really neat product. And obviously you've got the supply lined up for the job at Saint Mary's, which just closed last week. Yeah, yeah — so that's the first one for this Mitrex

29:03solar cladding. And I think you're obviously going to see more of this stuff. Yeah, it's going to be really popular. I'm sure a lot of building envelope and cladding companies are listening right now and it's piquing their attention. It is, it is. And architects too, hopefully. And I think we're seeing a new generation of architects now — you've been at this a long time — and the new generation of architects, they're being taught

29:33this in school. They're being taught climate, and spending much more time on things like passive house. Ten years ago you wouldn't have been teaching passive house construction at Dalhousie Architecture, I don't think. Now there's a master's program for it. Exactly — sustainability programs. So the new generation just gets it. This has got to be an easy sell to architects in Atlantic Canada for public tenders — but probably still a hard sell when you're talking to

30:05private builders and developers. Well, it's $20 more a square foot right now, and that matters a lot on that front. But yeah, that's the challenge right now, and it's going to take some time. So the government — to their credit, the Nova Scotia government — I couldn't be more happy with the response and the help I've gotten from them.

30:37Tim Hallman, who's my MLA and the Environment Minister — he's met with me personally twice. He loves what we're doing. I showed this to him. The first time I got the right inroad, I met with Tim the day after he had presented his environmental plan, which said that by 2030 we have to be off — and I think at the time he was wondering how we're going to do this — completely off of fossil fuels. Exactly.

31:09Pretty optimistic goal. I mean, it's a great goal — I don't want to sound ignorant about that. It's a great goal, and one we should strive for. The idea is always to shift away from fossil fuels. When it comes to renewables it's a slow shift — yeah, it's not going to happen overnight. That's — this is a good start for you. So yeah, he looked at it and he said

31:36"That's awesome." So they've already incorporated it into — you're going to see a lot of the government buildings now required to have 25% of some sort of renewable in them. The issue is that, as you know, the government's not building hospitals or schools every week or even every month — although that's going to help. And it feels like they are building them every month sometimes, yeah. I wish they built more, actually. But

32:09that's without my taxpayer hat on. That's right. But what they're doing — that plan is going to be great. It's going to set a good example. But it's really not going to make much of a dent overall in our carbon footprint. In the meantime, you drive around Halifax and you see 42, 43 cranes up here. I drive by those and every one of them is a missed opportunity. This just seems like a really simple, straightforward product with results —

32:44here's a solar panel, within a cladding system, all in one shot, and the results are right there. So it's going to take some creativity on the part of the government. Are there programs right now for a developer who wanted to use that product? Not that I'm aware of. They're in talks, and I think once the spring legislature starts sitting again you're going to see those conversations take place. In fairness to this government,

33:16they've been in power what — eight months? Something like that. But I think there's a will and an appetite for it. You're going to see those discussions. And listen — what's going to happen: let's say they implement that in the private sector and say, "Okay, a certain percentage of your building, if you're going to build in Nova Scotia, needs to be some sort of renewable." They're going to be upset, and they're going to say, "Well, we just

33:46won't build in Nova Scotia." Well, yeah, you will — you know you will. You'll have to make some adjustments. So my hope is that there's going to be a combination of legislation and reward. Legislation that says, "You know what, guys, we need to implement these renewables." Reward being, "Here's a little bit of money for your pain and suffering." And it shouldn't take that, because the reward should be twofold: number one, knowing that you're doing something good for the environment; number two,

34:21you're getting money back in your power bill. So the reward I think is there — we just need a long-term vision to see that reward. But listen, there are a lot of really good developers in this city that I think are open to this and are going to be open to it. You can say money talks and it's the bottom line — and there's a lot of truth to

34:55that. But a lot of them do have an eye for architecture and they do have sustainability front and center of mind, and that means a lot to them as builders. They're proud to build a building that has a better carbon footprint. You're right. And I look at guys like Peter Paulie at PolyCorp — Peter has always been forward-thinking and always considered the environment, and

35:23everything. So there are guys like Peter that are going to look at this as a big opportunity. And listen, it doesn't need to be Mitrex — there are so many innovative new products coming on board now that architects can access. As far as locally, in terms of manufacturer's reps or agencies locally representing these manufacturers — you probably don't have a lot of competition. No, I don't — not yet. And that could change pretty fast. Well,

36:02and the thing is — there's a good and bad to how I started this business. I got in on the ground floor with Mitrex. As I said earlier, I saw that news interview and called them up the next day thinking, "Oh, this is such a good product, they must have somebody in the east already." Well, they didn't — only because they hadn't gone to manufacturing yet. It was very early stage; they were still testing in 2021. The good news is that I got in on the

36:33ground floor and secured the line. The bad news is that I haven't been able to sell anything yet — it's been all promotion and presentations, because we just went into manufacturing in January. So the sales cycle stretched out a little bit. Like I said, the good and the bad — the good is getting in on an innovative product line like this on the ground floor; the bad is that the sales cycle is going to be

37:06a little longer. Yeah, it's going to take some patience. It takes time to get going. But hey, you've got SMU now — that's one down. And that's an EllisDon project, right? That's an EllisDon project, right. So whatever the cladding sub is. And you know, interesting how that went too. So he's making some site visits — just for some context on what it means to be a rep or an agency: you'll be going to site to visit? Well, absolutely.

37:32And I've talked about doing a corporate video, and that's part of what I want to work into it — documenting this process from point A to Z, watching everything from drilling the holes in the masonry to putting the Z-girts up to putting the panels up, and watching the lights — the best part is going to be watching everything go up and then flipping

38:03the light switch and realizing that's running off those panels. That's amazing. It's very cool. And I think that would be a great idea, because you're doing that at an institution that's pretty core to the south end and downtown — Saint Mary's University. And it'll be the first time you're going to have power generated from a cladding product there. So it's really neat, really exciting. And it's funny how things

38:32come around. So in my last business, when I was importing aluminum panels from China, we were looking at a project — Killam's, actually, retrofitting a lot of their apartment buildings right now. Same type of thing, Dan — they've got '70s-era old, tired-looking brick masonry buildings. They're not — Quinpool Road, on one of them facing there. That's just a rental. Yeah, yeah. So they started one, I think it's up in the Rockingham area, and

39:06anyway, what they're doing is recladding with a panel. That was prior to Mitrex. So they're trying to — again, like Saint Mary's was with Loyola — they're trying to modernize their buildings and put some nice bright colors on them. Now they get the opportunity to do that and have it generate solar power for the units. That's really cool and exciting. So there's a good segue into your other partner, Solar Vision — outdoor solar lighting. And

39:43I assume that as a rep or an agency you'd want to connect with municipalities on that and see parks being built with solar-powered pendant lights. I've seen some of the videos — they've got a really cool product there too. Any progress with that? Yeah, so I just signed on with them last week, which was really exciting. I'd been looking at that line and a couple of

40:14different lines over the winter months. To be honest with you, Dan, I felt the learning curve with Mitrex and the amount of time that was taking in presentations and everything meant I really had to put my time on that. Now that's kind of up and running and we're generating a buzz, so I started looking in the winter at different products. I'd looked at the Solar Vision line out of Quebec, and I've really been trying

40:48to stay with made-in-Canada products whenever possible. I think there's a huge benefit to that. Some would call me a hypocrite because two years ago I was putting panels on a container ship from China, but I really feel there's a benefit and there's a push towards made-in-Canada. So Solar Vision is up in Shawinigan, and they've been around about 10 years, growing every year, and they've done probably about 400 projects across

41:22Canada. They are not your Home Depot type of solar lighting system that you and your wife would put in your backyard — it's heavy-duty, weather-resistant street lighting, park lighting, that type of thing. What about parking lots for some of these new developments? Anything like that? They've done projects on wharves, right out into the water, parks — anything like that. So many benefits. Even a

41:56community soccer field, a university hockey rink, dog parks for instance. The great thing is you don't need to dig a trench. Besides the savings you're getting, you just need a concrete pad — just put it in place. The other exciting thing is we need to be cognizant of vandalism, so for the most part they're pretty much vandal-proof, in that your actual solar

42:30panel drawing the power is actually way up by the street light, so unless you're going to climb that pole you're not going to be able to destroy that or anything like that. They've got so many applications, and we're already looking at a couple of projects. I've been working with — I was telling you earlier — I really got drawn towards working with different First Nations groups, because I realized very early on that

43:10our Indigenous people, as I said, were environmentalists before it was cool. Everybody's jumping on the environmentalism bandwagon now, but their heritage — they've been saying for a hundred years that we're not being kind to Mother Earth and we're ruining our water.

43:33It was really neat to start networking and communicating with these folks. So I joined — the internet can be a great thing sometimes — a networking group called ICE, which is Indigenous Clean Energy Network. This is a group right across Canada — stakeholders, First Nations communities, groups, and that type of thing — that have legitimate plans to put renewable energy strategies into place. So I started liaising and communicating

44:12with a few of those groups. I can say I learned so much in a short period of time — it's just been an eye-opener. What's really impressed me about every chief and council member I've spoken to is how committed they are and how organized they are. They're very committed towards clean energy and renewables. So I've been in touch with them and working with them. There's a group in my old hometown, Miramichi. I grew up with about five

44:51First Nations communities within half an hour. A lot of my friends I played hockey with, I spent time on the reserves growing up and got to know them. And in Miramichi they formed a co-op — they've got about five or six different reservations all within that area, but they formed a co-op. They see strength in numbers. So instead of five little reservations they're one big reservation, and they've created a

45:25energy board where they're sourcing ideas like this. So we're already looking at things with the Solar Vision lighting for their communities. They're very committed to doing things right. And you've been dealing with some First Nations communities in Quebec and Alberta as well? Yeah, Quebec and Alberta. Again, the strength of the internet. I've been speaking with a very big reserve in Kahnawake, outside of Montreal — I think probably the largest

46:04reservation in Canada, or if not, in the top two or three. And they are very forward-thinking in implementing green programs. The exciting thing is it's a new generation, Dan — that's what's driving this. I mean, listen, I'm going to retire, God willing, in five or six years hopefully. The future's in good hands, because in the reservations their young people are becoming educated. They have their own architects, their own engineers, and they're all focused on green energy and renewables, and they've been educated in the climate

46:47and everything. So it's really exciting. The thing I take from my talks with First Nations folks is that in spite of what many people may think, they don't want a handout — they want to be self-sufficient. They want a hand up, to use a cliché. They've formed — they work hard to better their communities, and they want independence and sovereignty. So the renewable aspect with First Nations communities is huge, because it's probably in the top three

47:31of their list of things they'd like to accomplish in the coming years. Yeah, thanks for sharing that, Barry. Within the vision of renewable products for building materials — the lighting, the cladding products from Mitrex — and you also have another partner I think we should fit in: RainStick. Yeah, water savings — it's funny how that came

48:04about. LinkedIn is a great source. If I can give any advice to a young entrepreneur or sales rep — spend some time on LinkedIn, because it's just a wealth of information. I just happened to see a post about this RainStick thing and they had won an award. They're a young couple — Alicia and Sean — and they came up with this concept of recycling water and reusing it, and

48:42they're very committed to bettering the planet. So I just reached out to Alicia on LinkedIn and said, "Look, I just got into renewables and I think this is such a neat product." Sometimes you never hear back from these people, but to her credit she got back to me. We had a few conversations and found that we were on the same page. In a nutshell, basically what they've been able to do is invent a shower

49:14that recycles 80% of your shower water in real time. Which is the impressive part — yeah. Now before everybody watching this gets grossed out, it's really simple how they do it. The water comes out, they've got a filtration system in the bottom that catches all the hair and that type of thing, and then it goes right back up the tube. And as it's going up the tube to the shower head again, it's actually being treated with UV

49:43light that kills all of the bacteria that might have been in the water, and then as it comes out the shower head again, 20% of fresh hot water feeds back into it just to keep it warm. And they've invented an app that goes with it — so in real time you can see exactly how much water you've saved, the energy savings; it'll tell you when to clean or

50:12change the filter, everything. For anyone building a new house who's eager — and a lot of people are — to live a more sustainable lifestyle, you'd think those — what's the sales process been like for that? And can it be expected commercially for multi-unit residential? Yeah, it can be. Think of the water savings for a 90-unit building or something. Exactly. So much like Mitrex was, RainStick again

50:49has gone through a bit of proof of concept and received their certification, their CSA testing, and everything they needed. So we're really just going into production and launch now. Our plan — what I'm tasked with right now — is using my connections with various First Nations communities. We'd like to put ten or a dozen of these into new homes being built on various First Nations communities. We'll do that — we're speaking with different

51:25government groups to help fund that. The idea being we could have a few months to get these in, monitor them, tweak things a little bit. And we're doing pre-orders right now for fall delivery. Again, exciting — these kids, I call them — Alicia and Sean are in their 20s. But every trade show they go to, they win awards: best design, innovation, whatever. They were in Vegas after Christmas for

52:00the big kitchen and bath show, and they won a ton of awards there. So it's really exciting, and it's a great product. But we take water for granted here — we really do. I mean, we've always had tons of it. We're sitting looking out the window, there's tons of water right now. Some countries it's a commodity like oil. And I can tell you from the reading I've done, it's coming to a neighborhood near here soon, unfortunately, because we're starting to see more and

52:30more with climate change — wells going dry in Nova Scotia when you never heard of that happening 10, 20, 50 years ago. There was always plenty of water. Water is going to be your next big issue when it comes to climate change, and it's coming sooner rather than later. But where it's really relevant, I believe, is with many of these First Nations communities who sadly have had to fight with the government and struggle for clean water or enough water.

53:09That's the really exciting part — where they're located, not always connecting to municipalities. Some of it is, especially as you get into the north. I'm working with one group in Kirkland Lake, Ontario right now. As you get into the north, some of these communities have been neglected pretty badly. The government has talked about fixing these water-supply issues for years, but it doesn't always get done. So this is exciting for them.

53:44And I'm working on a passive house with a First Nations community in the Kirkland Lake area. They want to put — we're talking about doing the Mitrex on the outside of the passive house, and then maybe the RainStick shower inside, and that's going to be our model home type of thing, and then we can go from there. And yeah, even the passive house —

54:15passive houses are meant to be net zero. If they're ideally built, we can be into the negatives with things like Mitrex and RainStick. So that's exciting. If you had RainStick, Mitrex, and some of your pendant lights — and what about a roof to finish off the envelope? Well, Mitrex does supply residential roofing — they do, they do. And that's the exciting part about Mitrex: they've got the whole envelope coverage.

54:46The whole envelope covered. And the two biggest objections we've heard over the years — and I heard when talking to architects — are aesthetics and cost. When you brought up renewables, it was like, "Okay, you're not going to stick those ugly glass panels on the roof of my nice bungalow — it looks like something out of the Space Station." But over time, there have been ways to improve the aesthetics. And that's what Mitrex has done with the BIPV

55:19technology. Now we have rooftop solar panels that look like shingles — black asphalt, gray asphalt, slate, whatever. And it's basically just a very thin layer of solar cells behind the face. And we imprint whatever pattern we want onto it too. As I've talked to various solar installers — the solar installers have lost a lot of business over the years because they're in the house doing a presentation to the

55:56husband and wife: "This is what I'm going to save you, this is what it's going to cost, this is your payback." Yeah, that all looks good. The payback has really narrowed down — used to be not too long ago it was going to be 15 to 20 years before you got your money back on solar. Now it's about five years with new pricing, technology, and programs. Especially with the cost of oil, with the happenings — yeah, every time that goes up and everything,

56:25I talked to a solar installer in PEI yesterday. He said, "Every time that oil price goes up, my phone starts ringing." So where Mitrex and other like products come into play now is that solar installer no longer has to walk away because of aesthetics. The homeowner who would have said, "Look, I'm not sacrificing — I want to be green and everything, but you're not putting those ugly things on my roof" — can now have panels that are virtually going to

56:54blend right in to what they have. Oddly enough, that seems like the biggest issue in renewables — even with wind farms, a lot of the issue is what is this going to look like on the skyline. Nobody wants one of those big windmills in their backyard, with the noise and everything. Yeah. And that's an interesting segue as well — that's kind of next on my list to fill out my offering,

57:21diversify with solar and wind. Wind is next. There's a lot of really neat stuff happening in wind right now with building products. Well — no, it's more outdoor type of stuff. But there are companies in Europe — still, like your pendant lights — these are things you still need on a new commercial property, in the parking lot. So you're going to make them solar. But if you want to cover off the aesthetics

57:52issue, there are wind manufacturers now actually manufacturing products you could put in your backyard or alongside an apartment building — an eight-foot-high fence — and rather than big round windmills, the individual spindles on the fence posts turn with the wind. That's amazing. So now you can go to an architect or a homeowner and say, "You know, I need to put a fence in anyway, so I could have this fence that's really decorative." There's a company I

58:33was talking to last week — they're out of Holland. And theirs look like tulips, go figure — in various heights, and depending on how many kilowatts you want to generate they're different sizes. But they actually, if you were to put them in your backyard, they'd just look like a flower decoration turning in the wind. So you're in talks to represent some of those products and get them locally? Yeah, I am.

59:07I am. And ideally I've had some discussions with NSBI — Nova Scotia Business Inc. — and ideally what I'd like to do is get one of these companies that's early on in manufacturing in Europe and get them to come to Nova Scotia and set up production here. And they've indicated the money is there if we have the right business plan, so I'd really like to see that — have them

59:42bring a product that's in early-stage development and we could actually — we have the manufacturing capacity here, we have the universities to work with for testing, and that type of thing. Everything's here, and the government has expressed an appetite to fund such projects. So that's kind of what I'm ideally looking at: a lot of this European technology, if we could actually manufacture it in Nova Scotia, would be great. So yeah, that's

60:16really nice. It's really neat to get an inside look at what you're doing with focusing on the green building products, the renewable products — and I call them building products, because the cladding is, and obviously the RainStick is going to be in the plumbing spec, and then the lighting in the parking lot or the fence with wind — you've got diversity there. And I don't know if there's any other

60:41agencies or sales reps focusing only on this. No, I think I'm it. And you know, like any other good thing, once the trail's blazed, yeah, I'm sure you're going to see more follow. But for people outside the industry too — I think people might wonder, "What's an agency, what's a rep?" It's a local representative for a product line. But you really have to know all those materials if

61:11you're going to be dealing with architects and builders installing, and yeah — material knowledge is pretty key, knowing the specs. And a lot of relationships too. What I've tried to do since going into renewables is to offer more of a turnkey — acting as a consultant, almost a project-manager type of approach where I can look after everything. You'll outsource some engineers? Yeah, I've got a good guy with 30 years in

61:44the solar business, an engineer who'll help me with design, and I've got some architects who'll help me too. I think that's where the market's going — building owners, First Nations communities, whatever: they really want that turnkey. These are great products, but as you know coming from this business, a product is only as good as the design and the install. You really need to be hands-on with that. So the first step is absolutely, as

62:20you alluded to, knowing the product inside and out.

62:27After that, being able to use my architectural and design background to help implement these things, and basically acting as a bridge between the architects and the manufacturers. And another interesting kind of development: as a business owner, you can't be too set in your ways. You need to have a vision and a plan, but you also need to be open to

63:11going in a direction you hadn't anticipated when you started. One interesting part of that was I've been doing a little bit of work with the province and various groups addressing the homeless situation and low-income housing. It occurred to me very early on that it makes very little sense to provide somebody with an affordable, nice place to live — what's the point if they've got to spend that money on oil or

63:45power? So my talks with the government — with Minister Loren in housing, for instance — have been: "Look, we want to go in that green direction, so we now have the technology that we can at least offset their power bill somewhat." And RainStick comes into play there as well with their water and power bill. That $300 or $400 a month that was being spent on oil and electricity they can take and put that towards food,

64:21clothing, education, that type of thing. And again, to the province's credit, they've been open to that and seem to be on the same page. I've been working a little bit with a chap up in Fredericton by the name of Marcel LeBrun. Marcel started a program called the 12 Neighbours initiative. He's a philanthropist — made all of his money in IT and sold his company. But to his credit, he's bought a bunch of land in Fredericton on the north

64:54side, and he's building tiny homes. Those tiny homes are going to be part of a community, and he's going to equip them with solar, so that people aren't saddled with huge power bills. But the exciting part about that is he's not only giving them a place to live — he's building a community center where the residents are actually helping build these tiny homes, building picnic tables and that type of thing. In this community center, a nurse is going to come once

65:30or twice a week to help with counseling and meds and that type of thing. Low-cost operations. So I see a real opportunity in renewables there — let's make that part of the discussion if we're going to — what's the tagline? "Remarkably Renewable"? I know, it's very neat stuff and cutting edge. And it's been a treat to hear all about AzSpecd Solutions and the different

66:06partners and the innovative products. And I know it must be a challenge to get things spec'd for the first time. But it seems like you've got all the bases covered. I was wondering if just finishing up — back on the topic of sales. You've had a Bachelor of Arts, and I just think there's something neat there. You know, what they call business

66:31development, or sales — any entrepreneur, any business owner is essentially a salesman in a lot of ways. You're selling yourself, you're selling your vision, you're selling to your employees, you're selling what is a valuable service or product to people. So someone like you, 35 years in sales — this reminds me of one of my favorite books called "The Greatest Salesman in the World." Have you ever heard of that? By Og Mandino? I've read it. Have you? I've read all the different scrolls

66:55in the marketplace, and how to separate the rules he would live by, not to take your work home to your personal life, et cetera, et cetera. Really neat book. And I just think it's unique, your journey. It might not seem that valuable to certain people — the arts degree and stuff — but if you can learn how to write and the power of words, and learn how to articulate and express yourself and your

67:22ideas — because a lot of people have great ideas but don't have the sales skills, and someone's got to be hired to do that. As an entrepreneur and a salesman, just the psychology of sales and how to connect with people — because a lot of people are in jobs now where it's like, "How many cold calls did you make? How many emails did you send?" And then how do you connect with people in a way that is meaningful without them feeling like all

67:48you want is to get something from them — like it's just a transactional experience. What are some of the things you'd give as advice on sales to people? For someone who's been doing it as long as you. Yeah, it's funny — I've worked for many sales managers in my time, some good, some bad. I think I cut my teeth at Shaw Brick

68:19with a guy by the name of Terry McDowell. Terry was my first real sales manager, and he was old-school relationship building — take somebody out for a game of golf, just listen to them, and he knew his stuff. So I think what I learned at a very early stage of my career is to listen. I see too many young sales reps walking into an architect's office now and starting with the pitch, and

68:57they haven't even taken the time — or the developer's or the GC's — they haven't taken the time to sit and listen to what the customer wants. They're so focused on just getting that pitch out there, all the benefits of their product, how much money they can save you, and everything. But they don't understand the client they're dealing with. They don't understand their motives. They don't understand how they think. They haven't taken the time, because they think their job is to just get out and

69:24pitch. And you might want to change your whole aura and temperament when you're talking to certain types of clients. You're going to go deal with the cladding installer on site — you're going to talk to them differently than you're going to talk to an architect. And that's a good point. One thing I've been very good at — everybody's different. Anybody that's succeeded in construction

69:50business has been able — you hit the nail on the head. I mean, I've been on job sites up to my knees in mud, bringing a bricklayer coffee and talking, looking at a job he's doing, trying to stay on his good side. And then look at my watch and say, "Holy crap, I've got to be downtown for a meeting with Architecture 49 in an hour." Change your super — do the whole thing and change, get your steel toes off, and

70:18put your dress shoes on. And you're absolutely right — you're on the job site, you need to communicate at everybody's level. The GC, the contractor, the mason — he doesn't want me talking technical stuff. It's: how's the coffee, how's his car, who won the hockey game, listening to his problems for 10 minutes. Yeah, a wife left him and everything else. But conversely, when you go see the architect,

70:51it's all business. With the architect it's like five minutes of pleasantries — "Hey, how's the family?" — but okay, here's what I need. And then you need to bring yourself from the cursing-and-squaring level with the contractor to the technical level with the architect. What's the point? The point is to connect with them. They cannot connect with you unless you're on their level, whatever that may be. And the other thing I've learned — if I can give one piece of advice:

71:21don't pretend you know everything. I don't know everything. I think about Brené Brown's book on vulnerability — "Vulnerability," exactly. New York Times bestseller a couple years ago. There's a reason why it's there — there's a place in the business world for being vulnerable and just saying, "Look, I have no idea." And you know what, my experience has been that when you tell that architect — the fear for young sales reps is

71:50that the architect is going to think I don't know what I'm talking about. But I believe it's quite the opposite. If I take a notepad in and say, "You know what, honestly, I have an idea, but I don't want to lead you astray — let me get that information and I'll get back to you." And if I get back to them within the next 24 hours, whether it's a phone call or an email with the answer, because I've talked to the engineer that invented it

72:17or whoever — they're like: number one, a lot of times they're surprised that you actually do follow up and give them what they asked for; and number two, they know you're going to give them the correct information. And that, I think, Dan, above anything else in sales, is the important thing — don't try to be all things to all people. You can't know it all. So yeah, that's great advice, Barry. I'd love to talk to you about

72:47that stuff for days. There's so much in the psychology of sales — and our lives are only as good as how healthy our relationships are, and sales is all about relationships and communication. Nobody's got it figured out completely. It's always a mystery, and technology is changing relationships now. And technology's changing so quick, Dan. Interesting — we can kind of close off with talking about sales managers and different approaches

73:17and that type of thing. In the past I've worked for sales managers out of Toronto, Montreal, or whatever. You know, about doing eight calls a day. And I've had sales managers saying, "I want your call reports and I want to see eight calls a day." I used to argue with these guys: this is the Maritimes. We're not on Yonge Street in downtown Toronto where I'm just going to go bang bang bang and call on one architect after

73:48another. I can achieve that call ratio you want, but they're probably not going to be good quality calls. It's going to be, "Hey Dan, how you doing? Need anything? Okay, good" — but there's one. So I think we're really different here in Atlantic Canada, in that our customers really expect and respect a relationship. They don't want — if they're in a rush or a pinch, they want someone to deal with for the next five years. Exactly — they want consistency. They're

74:22tired of that revolving door of sales reps coming in and out. But they want your attention, and they don't care whether you're doing eight calls a day or whatever. It's really different here. Now in Toronto — I've gone up there when I was in the brick business, doing calls with Brampton Brick up there — they were very much like that: eight calls a day. I've got

74:50to get my calls in. And I was just like — we were just getting going on the presentation and the sales rep I'm with is putting on her jacket because she wants to go on to the next call. And that seems to be okay in the bigger cities, but it really doesn't work down here. It's a lot to do with the culture, right? Yeah, a lot to do with the culture. Everything moves faster up there. Well, Barry, thanks for

75:15the sales advice, and hopefully you'll help some people out who are listening. It's been great to hear about AzSpecd Solutions and all the sustainable products — very interesting stuff. Good luck with the new job, and we'll keep an eye out for your corporate videos. Yeah. Once it gets installed — yeah, I know, it's been a treat to talk to you. And anybody who's been in sales for 35 years has

75:39got my vote. You've got some thick skin to make it that long. Well, I think the belly really speaks to the 35 years — a lot of buffets and Tim Hortons in there. Yeah, yeah! Thanks for having me, Dan — I appreciate it. And best of luck to you guys in future. Keep growing this — I think it's a great avenue for the industry and long overdue. Thanks, Barry. Thanks a lot. Cheers.

76:09Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to follow us on any podcast platform you use. You can also find us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to send us a comment or review — we'd love to engage with you.