How to Price a Paving Job: The Tons-and-Time Method Explained by Brown's Paving (NB)

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1:07The podcast in the near future. Okay, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Pleased to have our guest today from Brown's Paving, from Sussex, New Brunswick — Nathan Bernard, Business Development Sales Lead. Yeah, yeah, one of the sales guys — one of many, I guess. Four of us altogether, but I was the only one prepared to make the trip down today, I guess. Yeah, no, thanks for making the trip down. You picked a good day. Yeah, good trip down. You were telling me just before...

1:36...before going live that you've been with Brown's Paving since '06, right out of high school. Yeah, '06 — it's been a while. And it's kind of rare that somebody sticks it out. Yeah, I guess it happens a lot, but not — yeah, for sure. No, like I was saying, I just kind of — I had a summer job all lined up that was going to take me till September, and I got wait-listed for college. So I knew somebody that worked...

2:00...there, and they said, "Come in, sit down for an interview." He says, "A little late in the season to start at a paving company, but try it out, see if you like it." So yeah, went down, did the interview. And at the time it was like early September, okay? Yeah, yeah. Because you only have your five-month window there or something, maybe? No, yeah — like usually we're kind of fired up, like we try to fire up by the second week of May, and then...

2:22Depending on the weather, you know. I've seen this go — ideal temperature. What's your capacity? Yeah, like depending on what you're doing. I mean the asphalt, if it's in a truck and tarped, it'll stay hot. Like you could have ambient temperature of five or six degrees and it's gonna stay hot as it gets worked through the paver — you're gonna be able to lay it. But the ground temperature comes in — like you don't want any frost in the ground, so you kind of got to keep an eye on things.

2:47And what'll happen too — like in the fall, if you have a wet fall you just don't have those dry hot days to dry the ground out, so you can get yourself in trouble that way too. So yeah, just got to be cautious, be careful, and just kind of cross your fingers that Mother Nature stays on your side. So you're saying you started late in the season on your first day? Yeah, yeah — started in September. Started in September and started out...

3:11Actually, traffic control was where I started out — so it started out flagging. We had a couple bigger contracts; we were actually working out in Fundy Park, yeah, towards Alma. And kind of worked my way into a labour position from there. Actually, that's the starting point — just stationary. You're not — right, exactly. Yeah, nobody moves, nobody gets hurt kind of deal. So kind of trial by fire. And yeah, from there I went into, yeah, like I said, the labour side, running equipment, and supervised the paving crew.

3:45For a few years, worked on our large paving crew that we have, worked on the prep crew side of things for a couple summers running machinery, and then from there kind of migrated into sales. Nice. Yeah, so that's 17 years. 17! Yeah, yeah, 17 in September I think. Wow, yeah. And lots of variety, lots of different — it's good. Yeah, yeah. And it helps you now in your job when you're dealing with — yeah, yeah. That was probably one of the biggest things, is like, to be...

4:17Well-rounded, you know. Like it's one thing to — if you're trying to sell a car to somebody, well most cars are the same. You know, some have leather, some have heated seats, whatever. But as a general rule of thumb most cars do the same thing, so it's pretty easy to sell something like that. But when you're pricing a job you've got to be able to look at all the different variables. You know, is there asphalt in place? What's the ground look like? Now I saw a...

4:42...place that you would cover over — and do you typically remove it? Yeah, we don't do too many top coats now, unless you're looking at like — if you paved a street or you're going to pave the street base and seal, what you may end up doing is basing it one year and sealing it the next, per contract. But as far as like the residential side of things, in the last year — why do you have to rip it up? Why can't you just — like if you're...

5:04A lot of — I'm just comparing it to like a roof assembly. A lot of times, instead of a full replacement, they'll just do a repair and put the — you know. Yeah, no, that's a fair question. So like, the big thing is — that would be like, let's say the roof is a perfect example to compare it to. So let's say your roof is, you know, 10-12 years old, you're seeing some shingles blowing off in the breeze, and you call a roofing...

5:32...company and they're going to say, "Hey, your roof's only 10 or 12 years old, let's replace a few of these shingles." Right. So the equivalent is — you've got a crack in your driveway, let's cut it out and fix it. And for a certain point you're able to do that. But what happens typically is you're not calling somebody until your roof leaks. So how long did your roof leak for before you knew it was leaking? So are you going to call a contractor...

5:57...and maybe they'll come and throw some shingles on it and fix it up? Or is the problem maybe a little deeper than that now? So what happens with the driveway typically is somebody's not calling until, you know, their car's oil pan is dragging on their car pulling in and out, or something significant — kind of has to be significant cracks. Exactly, yeah. And typically by the time it gets to that point, it's because there's something a little bit deeper going on. Yeah, so what we find now...

6:24Like especially in the industry — there's so much stuff that's already paved. Like even for me, I started in sales in let's say 2013. So in 2013 it was almost like I'd say 70/30: 70 percent of the people that called didn't have asphalt in place, but they had either built a house or it's just something that they wanted to do but maybe didn't have the budget for it. So now they're going to look at doing it. And then it kind of just kept...

6:56...trending the other way. So let's say 70/30, 60/40, 50/50 — well now it's almost gone the other way where it's like 60/40. "My driveway's paved, it's 15-20-25 years old, I've got some significant damage happening to it, I've got to look at redoing it." And that seems to be more of the market we're into now, as far as places with existing asphalt — as far as the residential side goes. Right? Because you do a lot of parking lots too? We do, yeah. We do parking lots...

7:25Multi-res or public buildings, so you do commercial? Yeah, 100 percent. And I mean, as much as there's kind of new construction and stuff like that, the other thing that we look at too — a big portion of our business really is maintenance. So we've got quite a few property development people, we've got some property management firms that, you know — and they call specifically, yeah, specifically for the asphalt. And for that it's maintaining, you know — it's not a package deal that...

7:57...you're offering for some of these parking lots. Yeah, typically yeah, we'll factor that in — a warranty plus the maintenance. Yeah, 100 percent. And that being said, it seems like everything is kind of getting bigger. So when you look at these property management firms, you know, they may have — not too many of them have one or two clients now, they're maybe looking after seven or eight different buildings or different properties. So you kind of do what you can for each...

8:24...one to just maintain and try to keep everything working and functioning, and trying to delay the inevitable, right? Which is a full redo at some point down the road. Everything's got a lifespan. And what — is it 20 years, is it typically — driveway, parking lot — is that the lifespan? I think yeah, in all reality, if everything is done properly the way it should be done, your typical lifespan should be 20-25 years, sometimes 30.

8:53But it depends on what kind of weather we've had — it's the weather. And it is the maintenance side of it, you know. If something — I mean, welcome to the Maritimes. You know, we've got weather, we've got frost and snow. Yeah, same with roofing. And sure, maybe that is a good analogy, because it's so weather-dependent. But building envelope, the parking lot — so yeah, exactly. The climate is so full of moisture. Yeah, yeah, exactly. And I guess that's kind of where we started with...

9:20...that roofing analogy. But like for us — if I show up to a driveway and I see some heaving, some cracking, there's going to be water damage — grades are a big thing. Like the idea of getting your driveway paved — we're going to finish at what the finished grade should be. So that finished grade is going to have water running away from your house, it's going to have water running away from the garage, it's...

9:46...going to be — we're going to shape it and grade it in a way that water is going to run off and never be a problem. So the idea is, if something's already paved, it becomes very difficult to put more on top of that asphalt that's already there and maintain grade, because you're already at the top of it when it comes to certain structures. And you're not solving the problem underneath. Exactly, you know. That would be like somebody showing up to fix your roof and you've got three...

10:11...broken trusses and some rotten sheathing on your roof, and they throw a couple shingles on it and call it good — well yes, that's not fixing the problem, it's hiding it. But the problem's still there. So let's drill into this in a way because I know some people are listening and they don't know really anything about paving or asphalt. I'm pretty close to being one of those people. And then there are other people that are listening that own asphalt companies. When they say, "Okay,...

10:38...just tell me what it is a square foot" — it's all the same, that's why they go with you then the next. And I'm thinking, okay, well you guys have a facility where you get the aggregates in and you produce your own asphalt, so that makes it different from some other offerings. Yeah, instead of buying it from a supplier. And then there may be different install techniques. You've got 50-plus years to the company — the way you do things...

11:05...there's all kinds of reasons why someone would go with — but take us through that a little bit for listeners. Yeah, I love that you went there, because that is — I would say that's probably the number one question asked to us. If our phone rings and it's a customer or a potential customer on the other end of that line, typically that is the question they're asking: "I'm thinking about getting my driveway paved — what is it per square foot?" You know, what...

11:30...is the price? Is it between six and twelve bucks depending? Like, is that — what is it? It's just not that simple. It can't be that simple. The grade of the land — 100 percent, yeah. There are so many variables when it comes down to what the job is. We know how to do it, we know our sheer costs. Yes, we know what it costs for us to make a metric ton of asphalt. We know what it costs for our dump trucks to...

12:00...drive up and down the road per hour. We know our crew costs, we know our fuel costs — all that stuff is built into crew costs and then it's built into our asphalt price. So in theory it's very easy to come up with a price. The reality is, the variable is all these things and the time. So when I think of a paving job — any paving job, whether it's a driveway, whether it's a parking lot, whether it's patching, repair, crack sealing — it comes down to, for that, as tons and...

12:32Time. So it's going to be how many tons of asphalt I'm going to need, how many tons of aggregate — and maybe existing asphalt I'll have to remove and then replace. When you say aggregate, there's gravel? Gravel base, yeah? Because you want to build a subgrade up, right? So typically stone, kind of thing? So for our typical asphalt — our driveway bases and parking lots and stuff — most stuff now is spec'd for, like, you're looking at a bed of say 12 inches of three-inch-minus for...

13:00...your kind of base, like your pit run, and then you'd want six inches of inch-and-a-quarter on the top surface, and that would be for your fine grading. So okay, all staged and compacted of course as it goes in. Because the idea is, as soon as our prep crew leaves, that driveway needs to be able to be paved. So within — typically our residential customers, once the driveway is prepped, we're back paving within five to seven days. So when would a driveway need to be...

13:29...different from your typical four-inch-thick asphalt? Because that's pretty much the standard, right? So four inches would be like your municipal grade — like if we're doing street paving, typically. So that's municipal? Yeah, or at the upper end of commercial. And residential is more — right. Residential, yeah. So our residential spec is two and a half inches after compaction, and that's a D-mix asphalt. So essentially what a D-mix...

13:58...is — we'll say for layman's terms it would be like a half-inch minus. So the biggest stone we have in there is half-inch, and then it grades down from there. Okay. And sometimes you can see that on sunny days when it's kind of melting a bit, you can see the different sizes? Yeah, yeah, 100 percent. So we have D-mix, and we also have a C-mix, which is like a five-eighths minus — it's a dense mix, okay, kind of more on...

14:19...the commercial side of things. So when you use that more on commercial — because of the parking lot element? 100 percent, yeah. Traffic, yeah. And you can pave a little thicker with it too. Like, the idea behind asphalt is you don't necessarily get your strength from thickness — you get your strength and longevity from compaction. Okay. So like with concrete, you know, concrete's a chemical curing process — it does it itself. So if you put 10 inches of concrete down, if it sets long enough it's going to cure with...

14:46...asphalt you have to get the compaction out of it. So you've got to get — the big thing is your air voids. So you want to get that air kind of pushed out, you want to reach your maximum density of the material, and that's going to give you the best wear. How do you get the air out? So for us, our asphalt paver — the screed on the paver actually vibrates. So as you're laying it and it's getting screeded off...

15:10...yeah, the screed vibrates, so that takes it to a certain percentage of compaction. From there it's done with your steel drum rollers. We do have some combi rollers as well — so what that is, it's got a steel drum on the front and it's got rubber tires on the back. The idea is to just mesh that material together as they roll over it to reach your maximum compaction. And the thing that becomes so important about your subgrade is that that asphalt surface is going to...

15:40...be over top of your gravel — you're only ever going to be able to compact that asphalt as high as that gravel is compacted. That's going to be the maximum. Right, the maximum. That's compaction, yeah. So the idea behind it — rocks aren't going to compress. Rocks aren't going to compress. And the reason that it's so important to have a base is because if you have a mixed bag of clay, gravel, organics, soil — which is common — I've seen it like...

16:08...so — you'd be surprised. So there are ways of figuring out this sort of bacon-and-cake mix that makes it not as expensive. Like, why are these different elements there? It's just the reality — it's like 20 years ago when some of these driveways were being built, it's just what was done, right? Asphalt was cheap, gravel was cheap, so some of the jobs were done — let's say cheap, or trying to be inexpensive, or...

16:35...whatever. So you never really know what you're gonna dig up when you get into it. So with customers calling and saying, "What's the square-foot price?" — like I say, there are so many variables. They could say, "My driveway is 20 by 40." Well, that's an 800-square-foot driveway. As soon as they say that I have a number in my head. But once you say — you know, like for us, we do kind of Southeastern...

17:04New Brunswick. So let's say we go from like Rossa question? — this area, all the way to Moncton. So there's quite a few different geographic areas in there. We've worked enough in them all that we kind of have a feel for, well, that area is known to have clay, or whatever — different areas. So if they say they're in maybe Riverview, well Riverview isn't one of those areas where the ground that's there is really the best. So if...

17:33...they tell me that their driveway is 20 years old, they've got very significant depressions in their driveway now, they've got some issues in the spring where they can see the driveway moving — it's a pretty safe assumption that what we would call there is a full excavation. So for us, I know automatically that I'm going to have to show up there, we'll have to dig all the existing asphalt out, at minimum 18 inches of the subgrade below. So then you've got to bring in the fill, bring the fill...

18:02...back in. So somewhere like a perc test for a foundation to test the soil — are you doing some of that? There is, and you'll get into that more on bigger projects. Yeah, exactly — street paving and stuff like that. There are compaction tests and stuff. Sometimes it's fact-checked, sometimes it's not. But for us, yeah, so I can kind of go from there and say it could be X amount per square foot, but...

18:29...that's a really hard thing to do over the phone too. Because no matter what you say — say, "Well, I can ballpark it" — if you show up there and it's worse than you could have ever expected, then that's when people are like, "Well, you told me..." You know, it's a tough industry and it's not that easy to ballpark. And stuff's not getting any cheaper. The price of fuel, the price of asphalt liquid — it has taken a couple of significant...

18:54...leaps in the last couple of years. Unfortunately, that's one of those costs that gets tacked on to the customer's bill. So expectations are high. So for us, that's when we look as a company and say, "We've got to double down on this." Because people are paying more, so I'd rather explain to them, "Maybe we are more than the next person, but I want to build you a driveway that's going to last for 25 years."

19:25Like, the only thing that is worse than paying five thousand dollars for a job that's going to last you five or six years before you start seeing cracking and stuff like that — is knowing that you maybe could have paid 7,500 and the driveway would be there for 25 years. So what's a typical warranty? That you would — a couple of years? Yeah, yeah, exactly. So for us, if we get into a situation like that — people...

19:53...do call and their driveways are in relatively good shape, but aesthetic-wise, whatever it may be, they decide, "You know what, the driveway is 20 years old, I'd like to get it redone." So what we'll typically do is dig out the existing asphalt, dig a couple of test holes. If we think the gravel is suitable, you can kind of base it off the existing driveway at that point — "Hey, it's still in pretty good shape" — then...

20:19...we'll maybe regrade what's there, incorporate a little bit more gravel, and pave over top. So with something like that, what we'll do is offer kind of a one-year warranty on that. So that's defects — cracking, anything like that. Kind of a manufacturer's warranty: if something goes wrong with this asphalt, we're going to be there to fix it. That being said, that same customer calls four years later, and myself or one of the other sales guys deals with them...

20:46Chances are we're going to look after it anyway, or do what we can to help them out. It's not like after a year we lose your phone number and you can't call us. We're there for a customer, we're here to solve problems. So and then what goes from there — if we end up doing a full rebuild, so we dig out the asphalt, we dig out a foot and a half or two feet of...

21:08...gravel, we supply the gravel, we come back and pave it — at that point we know what's there. We repave the driveway with that, you get a two-year warranty. Okay, so that's kind of a piece of mind. Because when you get into a situation like that, the price essentially doubles, because all that work is done by us — it's essentially two jobs. There are two different crews that show up there to do it: one crew is there to...

21:35...make sure that driveway base is everything it needs to be; the other guys are showing up there to pave it. And they're timely, you know, they take a while. So that's kind of where your cost comes in. Right, yeah. It's your crew costs — it's all those trucks burning fuel, all that equipment. "This guy's part of a union?" No, no, no, no. I think there may be some companies that do, but...

22:00Yeah, okay, I don't think too many kicking around here. No. Yeah. Tell us, Nathan, just a little bit of the history of Brown's Paving, just for context for listeners, and then maybe we can get into what the company looks like now and the structure. Yeah, no, yeah, for sure. So for the history as I know it, yeah, yeah, exactly. So, incorporated in '57. Yeah, it's been Brown's Paving Limited since '57. Before that I believe it was...

22:28...definitely the start in Sussex. Yeah, yeah, like the family's from Florenceville area, I believe, originally — or Centreville, up that way. But yeah, so from my understanding he had W.A. Browns and Sons, originally started in like '47, and then from there they incorporated into Brown's Paving in '57. They were a little bit more nomadic at first — they had a mobile plant — and then eventually, yeah, they settled down and put some roots right in Sussex, or...

22:57...Sussex Corner, I guess. But yeah. And is that where your plants are for the asphalt? Your plant services? So we have our asphalt plant in Sussex Corner, our main office — we do have our gravel pit there as well, but that's more like stockpiled material. Okay. So like our crusher spread and our pits — most of the stuff that we manufacture material out of would be like on the 114, heading out towards the Park Road almost. You still...

23:24...have just the one office location? We do, yeah. We have a couple different pieces of land that we own, right? Only in Southern New Brunswick, right, exactly. Yeah, yeah. So that's kind of our — what's your boundary lines, where you'll do work? Yeah, so for us, we've gone, we've done work as far as St. John — say Hampton, that area. We'll do like Chipman...

23:51...Minto region, and then like towards Salisbury, Moncton, Riverview, and then kind of Alma out towards the coast — that's kind of our working region. And that's for our paving operations. Our maintenance side of things, like for patching and stuff, the guys do go a little bit further. But it's, you know — we do, and that's because it's easy to get out there for a little bit of patching and stuff. You don't have to send trucks...

24:20Yeah, yeah, it's a little bit less invasive. They can go essentially with a dump truck load of asphalt — if it's tarped and in a good dump, it's going to stay hot for the majority of the day. They can drive up and down the road and go where they need to go and get that stuff done. Is there a temperature where it's too hot to do asphalt work? Yes — because I know it can't be too cold, but yeah, yeah, no, it goes...

24:43...the other way too. So a lot of contracts now are specifying what they call WMA — warm mix asphalt. So there are limitations on it — it's not going to separate or cure incorrectly. Yeah, exactly. So it just affects the product. When you add warm mix, it's an additive that's added to the asphalt; the idea behind it is that you can actually manipulate and compact the asphalt at a slightly lower temperature. Okay, so...

25:10...like you say, with concrete it's chemical — as soon as you mix it, it's a chemical reaction, it's going to start to harden, whatever that window is. With asphalt it's based off heat. So if it's a hot mix on a hot day, it's going to stay hot for longer, so the longevity, the workability, is going to stretch out further. How long are you supposed to stay off it — 24 hours? For us, our residential customers...

25:41...and commercial, if it's a parking lot, we try to — we say three days typically. So residential customers and stuff, really, if you can stay off them for three days, it just gives everything a chance to settle. These parking lots where guys want to set material on there and they've got deliveries coming — yeah, so it makes it tougher. Although you're there usually towards the end of the job anyway. Yeah, yeah, very close to the end for sure. And the...

26:05...logistics are there. Like even with new construction and stuff like that, people — as soon as they move in, the first thing they want to do is pave the driveway. But it's like, "Well, what are your plans?" "Well, I'm going to build a garage, I'm going to do this, I'm going to do that." So you've got to steer people sometimes in the right direction, where you don't want to make this investment — because it is, at this point...

26:28...in time, it's an investment. Because you'd be hard-pressed to pave any driveway of any size for under four, five, maybe six thousand dollars. So to do that and then risk damage to it — because you're going to have somebody dropping off materials, or you're going to have a concrete truck drive over it. At the end of the day, residential driveways are residential — you're kind of pushing the commercial envelope if you get a concrete truck delivering nine metres of concrete...

26:57...back and then on a hot summer day, yeah, something could happen. So you kind of want to do it in a way where it's almost like the last thing you do is your driveway, your landscaping — everything's built, everything's done. Yeah, it's so important to schedule that. It is, it is. Yeah, good. And that's a big thing we noticed. I bet probably the hardest — who's the main trade you're coordinating with when you're going to do a driveway? It's not often...

27:23...the homeowner, or the building maintenance guy in a parking lot — sometimes it's like, yeah, it's like the super, the crew. Yeah, it varies, it varies. The residential stuff — 90 percent of the time we're dealing direct with the homeowner on it. And the reason being, they're the ones that called. You know, typically it will stay within contact between the homeowner and whoever the sales person is, up until the point they decide that they want to go ahead with it. So once...

27:56...they confirm, there's still a good chance that one of us will reach out, the night before let's say we come to prep or come to pave. But typically now that's done in-house. We do have a scheduling program that we use — it kind of tracks all our customers, all their information, emails, anything that transpires between a salesperson and a customer is logged through this app — which works really well because if something happens and one of us is away...

28:23...and the customer calls, we have access to files and folders and pictures, and we all have the knowledge of what's going on. Communication is key, and that's right — between customers and crews. Everyone's got to know what's going on; the right hand's got to know what the left hand is doing at all times. Because it's very easy to get in situations — absolutely. So tell us — you mentioned earlier about 50, approximately, on your install crew? Yep, yeah, yeah. So and like...

28:54Overall, there's about 50 guys. So with that, we've got our plant crew. We've got our — the guy sitting there, he's the mad scientist, you know, creating all the material. That's a pretty unique position. It is, yeah, it is. There's a lot that goes into it — it's a lot more than just rock and tar. So what's his background? He's actually kind of the same — same as you've just described — he's been around. Yeah, yeah. He did some — he's taken the proper courses...

29:21Yeah, yeah, he's gone down to different places. Like there are some bigger asphalt manufacturers and asphalt equipment manufacturers and plant producers and stuff in the States that put on some of these hot-mix courses. So they go over plant maintenance, give you the rundown of everything, and what you should incorporate into your own plant for maintenance and quality controls. Do you have numbers like for your output there — like asphalt...

29:47...coming out that you're producing a week or something? Is it measured in cubic metres? How do you — yeah, essentially. Like everything's scaled, right? So liquid is scaled, and then everything that we produce — be it we sell it to another contractor, we sell it to DTI, or it's our own jobs — everything that goes in is either weighed on the way in or weighed on the way out. So we know what we have in...

30:12...our pit at any given time for aggregates, and then all our asphalt is weighed as it goes out — whether it's going to a general contractor or for our own use. So we kind of know at the end of the year where we're at with our numbers, what our targets are, and all that stuff. So it's all kind of monitored. Yeah. So you've got that guy — yeah, yeah, this is one position. Yeah, yeah. For both plants or just the...

30:35...one plant? So we've just got the one asphalt plant. So yeah, Brandon Dubose, our plant operator. Okay. And then we've got our loader operator — so those two are kind of the main guys there. They're keeping everything running. And Brandon looks after all his own maintenance and stuff like that. If something breaks down — so we're talking about all the equipment? Your trucks, your rollers? No, just the plant itself. Okay, right, yeah. The plant itself. And then we've got...

30:59...two mechanics now, that are full-time in the shop as well. So we've got a diesel mechanic and an automotive mechanic in there. And then, actually, he used to be the paving crew supervisor for years — back when I was on the paving crew, he was — we have a lot of guys similar to you where there's kind of these switches between different positions. 100 percent, yeah. Everybody kind of gets bounced around a little bit...

31:24...and finds the spot, you know. It's a big thing — you don't want people to get complacent. People, if you do something for so long — yeah, variety is the spice of life, especially like that. And it is monotonous, but it's healthy in a way. I mean, I've done lots of similar work in construction where it is the same thing every day, and there's a healthy side to that too, for sure. Sometimes it's what you need for...

31:47...the next month, or six months, or a year even. But yeah, after a while, it is nice to be able to make a change. You have the opportunity in the company to do that — it's, yeah, oh, it's huge. And like you say, that variety — as you kind of work through your career, there are positions available that you can kind of take a step back and learn to do something different, learn a new trade, learn a new...

32:12...skill set. That's going to keep you working, keep you happy, and keep you learning — or keep showing that you're learning different things. That's right, it's important. Yeah. So we've got our plant crew, we've got two guys over there, we've got our two guys in the shop. We've got — we still have our internal traffic control crew. What kind — have you heard of that new company — 2020-something — where it's got...

32:35...this new technology for traffic control? I think it might be more for, like, maybe larger, downtown core type of things — long duration. There's a lot of new technology for that. Yeah, yeah, oh, there is, yeah, 100 percent. And we still have — yeah, that's the thing. Like for us, it would be nice to kind of get — long duration is good because you've got your one setup, you've got your one mode, most of your equipment stays there, aside from your...

33:01...trucks going in and out. But for us, those jobs are few and far between. We've had a couple of big jobs like that — like we did the potash mine in Sussex. And I'd be lying if I told you the year, because I don't remember. But that was one of those jobs where we had one really big area, there was a lot of material, and we kind of set up shop there for, you know, a...

33:28...couple of weeks and then moved on. But like for us, if we're doing residential driveways, depending on the size of the driveway, we could do four, five, six driveways a day. If we go into a subdivision — I want to say earlier in the spring we went to a subdivision and did nine driveways, right inside each other, all the same design. Exactly, yeah. And for that, you could consider it long duration, maybe, because we were...

33:57...on the same street all day. But for the most part, if we do six driveways, they could be 15-20-30 kilometres apart — so we're always moving, we're continually moving. So that's nice when you do get a subdivision, or you're working with a home builder that's doing the whole subdivision — they're going to cross someone like that locally, but that does make the logistics a little easier. But for us, I mean, if we do five driveways...

34:21...that's five mobes for the paving crew, that's five sign setups, that's five traffic control patterns — there's a lot that goes into it. And yeah, at the end of the day that all gets kind of factored into our costs and our price and gets passed on. But yeah, like I said, I feel like I keep cutting you off, but you're still explaining the crew. Yeah, yeah, we'll get back to it — circle back, right?

34:48So yeah, and then we've got a couple lovely secretaries in the office that kind of keep the ball rolling — making sure everyone's paying their bills and all that stuff. And they help with scheduling as well, yeah. And then like I say, four sales guys, and then the crews. I mean, everybody tied together, we're looking at pushing probably 50 guys. What's the culture like? Is it kind of everybody — I'm sure you go like a month, maybe...

35:17...without seeing some of these guys, or more than that even. If you get together quarterly? Yeah, so we're pretty grassroots in that way — a little bit old school. We've got the technology and the programs in place, and realistically they've got a calendar they can look at, they've got all the contact information, they've got the information on the job — all on their cell phones. So we are kind of moving in that direction of, you know, we're living...

35:47...in a technologically-based world where there's stuff there that can help you out. But that doesn't stop us from every day having that morning meeting — whether you want to call it a toolbox talk or a tailgate meeting. We've got a conference room. What does that look like? Okay, so the management staff, the sales guys — is it once a week, or every morning? Every morning. Yeah, between 6:30 and 7:00 — that's usually the first step. The guys...

36:21...are still getting their first coffee into them and stuff, but it just kind of gives us a chance to pass all that information on. So this is what you're doing today, this may be some of the things you should look out for — whether it's a busy street, whether it's a big driveway you're looking at, you know, you need extra trucking power to do it all — all that stuff gets...

36:45...figured out in the mornings before the guys leave. There are times where, if the prep crew is out getting a driveway ready, they already know what they're doing, so they may just hop back into what they're doing the next day and go on. But at some point there's going to be a phone call or some scheduling where they're going to give us a call and we'll say, "Okay, this is where you're going next." We try to always keep the lines of communication open for...

37:09...that, for sure. So what about — when I'm thinking about your journey, starting out in traffic control, working your way up through a labour position — what about especially when it comes to the machinery? The rollers and the compactors and the paving machine and stuff. What's training look like for, call it, apprentices? Like, you can't learn everything at once, but there are different — you know, kind of like an assembly line on the site where everything's working and...

37:38...yeah, yeah. I mean, some guys just have the shovels. Yeah, that's right — well, not just, but that's what's needed. Yeah, that's right. And the thing about it too — I'd say for around here there are a multitude of equipment training academies and stuff like that. I'm sure you guys have some in Nova Scotia, I know we have some in New Brunswick. But you're going to be hard-pressed to go to...

38:04...any of those academies and see any paving equipment there. So it's not — basically, right — it's your grader, your backhoe, your loader — it's more excavation. More excavation, civil. So someone with that background might be a good hire? 100 percent — if somebody is interested in the trade, maybe they think they want to run equipment, but there are opportunities there to kind of branch out and look at a different side of things. Like, I...

38:33...know I spent two or three years running the side of the paver. So you're controlling the thickness of the asphalt and the look of the asphalt via the controls on the side of the machine. It's the guys you see standing on the side of the highway when they're going up the road, just looking at the toe point on the machine. It's one of those jobs where — it's not luxurious by any stretch, but it is one of...

39:04...those things that at the end of the day, there are lots of jobs in construction that are not glamorous, they're not sexy, they're not luxurious — but it's one of those jobs where you look back at the end of the day and say, "Hey, I did that." That's good money? Yeah, it's good money. It's tangible. Feel good about it — honest work. 100 percent, yeah. So it's a lot of it, though. It has to be. And because of that — because of, I don't want to say lack...

39:29...of training or resources or anything like that — it's one of those things, it's kind of got to be trial by fire. Somebody's just got to try it out and say, "You know what, this isn't for me — I tried this for three months and it's not working." Yeah, 100 percent. But you've got to — it's hard to find people maybe that are willing to do that or have the ambition to do that. Or it's just one of...

39:54...those things where it may not be the right person for that job, but that doesn't mean that there isn't another job on the same crew that they couldn't find something they really enjoy doing. We'd like to welcome our newest partner here at AC Media: the Freeman Group. Freeman Group Financial works closely with business owners, professionals, and retirees as their primary custodial wealth manager. The Freeman Group is targeting contractors and people in the construction industry as they move forward. The Freeman Group is a great...

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40:54...year while planning for more growth in the years to come. We'd like to thank our partner Pivot Accounting. If you're a contractor or small-to-medium-sized business owner in the construction industry and are looking to outsource your payroll, accounting services, and financial needs, Pivot Accounting is a great option. Yeah, that's an interesting point you make. Like I think that's where — you know, it could be a paving company like Brown's Paving, like that's what we're talking about now as you're here, but it could be any company providing any...

41:24...it's hard whenever you have people that have different skill sets. It takes a lot of leadership and management, and communication, to maneuver around and give an opportunity here for someone to try this, see if it works, how far do you let it go if it's not — where else could they fit? We need to move this around, we need this spot filled, in six months and a year we've got all this work coming up. And then, you know...

41:55...when it comes to people — people get offended, people want to be good at things they're not good at. We all have that, right? "I wish I was good at this, I'm just not." It's hard to admit. How do you — it's just as you're saying that, it makes me think of just the challenges in leadership to deal with things, because sometimes you might not want to have that conversation. It's going okay and it's like, you know, you're...

42:20...in the middle of it. But yeah, it doesn't help to just leave things as they are if they're not working. And I think the reality is there are lots of people out there that are working, that have jobs, and they understand maybe this job isn't for them — they're not doing what they want to do, and that's what it is. It's a job; it's sort of a purpose. You have to make a living, you have to make money. But they...

42:44...don't really want to be doing it, and they're maybe not that good at it. So when you get to a job like paving, there are lots of guys that go into it thinking they know exactly what they want to do. Like there are guys I know — it's the same as people that do long-haul trucking. I mean, that's a lifestyle, it's not just a job — that's a lifestyle. But when you start looking at it, that could maybe be used the same...

43:08...thing when it comes to civil, or paving, or construction in general. A lot of these scopes will work against the lifestyle — 100 percent. If you're working as a mason or in drywall, it's a lifestyle. And you look at the paving crew — for, you know, in the middle of summer when there are paving crews out on the highway and people are driving by, there are kids looking out the back window seeing those steam rollers go up...

43:30...and down the highway and saying, "I want to do that, I'd love to do that." Fast forward 10 years and they're applying for your job — "Oh, I want to roll asphalt." Okay, well what have you got? "Oh, I don't have anything." Well, how do you get it? You can't go to school, what are you going to do? So you've got to be willing to sacrifice — sometimes the equipment, sometimes your patience, sometimes your marriage, sometimes...

43:59...your margin — and just say, "Okay, we're gonna slow it down and we're going to give these guys a shot." And somebody did that for you straight out of high school. Somebody did that for me, 100 percent. That's the reason I'm where I'm at today. That's the reason I'm here. Sometimes it works out. It does, honestly. That's great. But yeah, sometimes it doesn't. And there doesn't mean there's not a spot somewhere else. So that's the lateral...

44:23...movements within the company. Of course, everyone's looking to punch the golden ticket, but in the construction industry there are plateaus that you're going to reach. But I mean, yeah, maybe I'm there now — I just don't know it yet. But I've definitely enjoyed the ride here. I definitely appreciate every opportunity I was given within the company to get where I'm at today. And it's because of that that I'm more than happy to get in here...

44:51...and scream from the rooftop of this podcast room about the company, what it's done for me, what it does for everybody that's there now. It's really great to be in a place where you're not just a number — there's, that's probably the most important thing. It is, it is. And at the end of the day you're going to get a lot of construction experience — yeah, Tasha, or a number at one company — then...

45:14...asks for a unionized employee — if you're sure. Yeah, yeah. But yeah, it's nice to feel appreciated and all that stuff. And it's hard to come by sometimes when you're at certain companies or even in a certain industry — it's just not unheard of. I guess, yeah. Too, you're in a mentality where — in a lot of the industry it's fast-paced. Really, the two pillars are time and money. And that's what...

45:41...it comes down to. Whether or not the company has a structure or the leadership mentality to work around time and money, those two pillars — to build something that's inclusive and right. That's what you're always doing. Yeah, because it's still going to be about time and money at the end of the day. Yeah, at the end of the day. But no, it's one of those things, like I said. We're still kind of beating around the bush on this crew thing, but we've got the...

46:0750 guys. And then the other side of our business too that we're into is concrete blocks. So like our landscaping blocks — be it like two-by-two-by-four retaining wall blocks, metric tonne a piece — they're the world block system. Okay, so we've got the solid blocks. No, no, yeah, they're solid pour, yeah. Solid pour blocks. And we've got three people on the concrete crew as well — a husband and wife that work together...

46:36...every day, and they've got another with them — and they do all our block production. Wow, it's really picked up. I mean, it's a business that — especially like we've got certain areas in and around Sussex and neighbouring communities where flood waters in the spring are a big thing. So one of the biggest uses that we're seeing those blocks used for is just for land retention and protection. So you're seeing a lot of these bigger block wall...

47:06...projects going in, and it's helping with — well, flooding is one thing, but flooding and wind creates erosion that people have been dealing with and losing properties over — like in the Grand Bay or the Grand Lake area, around water communities, yeah. So that's been really big for us — to be able to supply these blocks to people and kind of help protect their property. So you supply them and sometimes install them? With the husband and wife that work...

47:36...yeah, they're on the retail side, they're on the production side. So we did focus on some installation — we still do a few, but it's okay. Typically we'll work within — like the contractor that's buying from you? Yeah, other local contractors. We'll supply and we'll kind of give them — when it comes to contractors and stuff, we'll try to give...

48:03...them a little bit of a break on the blocks as well, sure, for costs — so they can kind of pass that on to the customer. And stamped walkways are another big thing. Do you do the same thing with that, similar to the concrete? So yeah, our stamped asphalt — typically the paving crew that goes out, if they're paving the driveway, they'll actually perform the stamping as well. And then — is that a new thing? It's been around for a while...

48:28Is it popular, is it trending right now? Yeah, it always kind of did commercially. So you didn't really see a lot of residential stamping. From my understanding, when it kind of first started, it was almost like a franchise where certain companies in certain demographics could buy into the franchise and then they'd be supplied products, but they'd have kind of their region. Okay. So you couldn't — if you were kind of stuck between two companies in Sussex, we were kind of stuck between two companies...

48:59...that already had that franchise, you know, with the company. So we weren't really available. But we were at World of Asphalt in Charlotte, actually North Carolina — that would have been 2012 — and we actually met with a company down there that was in asphalt stamping supplies, epoxies, and everything you need to do it. So we went for a training course down there and kind of decided it was something that we were going to throw our hat in the ring at. And you know, we've grown it...

49:29Grown it quite a bit. It has, yeah, it has. So it's — the product, there are different patterns, different colors. Exactly, yeah, yeah, for sure. Yeah, lots of different patterns. Most of the stuff's on our website, kind of gives you a quick rundown of it. But yeah, it's pretty neat. It's a nice facade — kind of a brick accent, you'd say. It definitely — you know, it's not going to replace paver stones because...

49:54...of your variations of colors and stuff. But it's a really nice alternative to some of the stuff — it's a good option. It's a good option and it's feasible compared to what you're going to pay for some of those other things. So if that was sold commercially to commercial projects, is it something that you try to get spec'd with architects? A little bit of sales in them? Yeah, there is — enough like there is kind of enough stuff in the industry and enough information in the industry that they will expect it. Yeah, and...

50:18...patterns and color choices. If somewhere has already had some done, we'll have to try to match up colors — like our product versus what color they would have used — to try to match it up. But yeah, it's basic in design. We've got a cable template that you can press down into the asphalt after it's already been compacted. Okay. Once that's done, you come with your two-part epoxy after — and that's a different cut, like you say, different color choices. Pretty well any color under the sun now...

50:44...is available. Yeah, it's a two-part system. It's water-based, but it is a — there used to be a cement base, so what you'd see over time, stuff would start to peel off. But now the new products — everything's come leaps...

51:10...and bounds. So awesome. We've been doing it since 2011 and I haven't had to re-coat anything yet. We've done a few jobs in Nova Scotia actually — okay. We did the Town of Windsor. Oh nice, yeah. Did some stuff for the Halifax municipality for bike trails and stuff. So right on. And the Town of Windsor was at some municipal properties? Yep, yeah, exactly. Yeah. We do come over to Nova Scotia to do...

51:35...some installs, yeah, here and there. And that stuff — the other option, although it's easier to do while you're paving when the material's still hot, we can actually reheat existing asphalt surfaces — torch it up, yeah, exactly. Infrared heaters, and you've got to heat it up without burning the asphalt, right. Experience and temperature matters, especially. Specialized equipment to do that. Cool, yeah. It's a neat thing. And yeah, it's interesting. Is there also — is that stuff common, does it happen somewhat regularly...

52:02...where you might have a parking lot and then concrete blocks and a stamped walkway — like, is it ever kind of a package? I'm sure that would be a positive thing. Yeah, yeah. Wrap your arms around that scope. Yeah, for sure. We've done a few for sure. And I mean, with that it comes down to — maybe even you get yourself into a position where the customer doesn't even know that that's something that they need and you can...

52:33...work with them on the design, design it a bit. Yeah, and try to make something that's functional. At the end of the day, we're a company that's just trying to solve problems. I love that — it's really what everyone's trying to do. Yeah, exactly. Like, if you've got a driveway that needs to be fixed, we're going to fix it. Or at least try to coordinate with you and communicate with you what we're going to do as a company to supply you with a product...

52:57...that's going to last for as long as it should. So that's what it kind of comes down to for us. We're never going to go into a job — especially for our residential and commercial customers — we're never going to go into a job trying to be the cheapest price on the page. If you've got a handful of quotes, we're not trying to be the cheapest. We don't want to be the most expensive either — that's not the name of the...

53:26...game. We want to be somewhere in the middle, and be very clear and concise in communicating what we intend to do to get you that product or that service — that finished driveway, that finished parking lot, that finished parkway, that concrete wall, whatever it may be. That's what we're there for. So yeah, it's tough to price into that zone, dial into that. You know, it's like that saying — I think it's like...

53:52...you can pick any two of the three: time, money, and quality. That's right. The best, in a certain amount of time — well then you've got to pay. Exactly. Pick any two of those three. And you know, that's the thing. And as you're eating something one time — and I'm probably going to jumble this up — but it went something like: the sweetness of a cheap price will wear off quicker than the sting of a bad job.

54:24That's a good one. And that's what it's about, at the end of the day. But it's hard — it depends on the mentality on the other end too, right? 100 percent. A lot of times money is the — yeah, money's the answer, and you know what, it's with the pricing, the cost of everything now... But you've just got to get it, we've got to sell ourselves and sell our products, at the end of the...

54:47...day. It's not about — sometimes you'll get that conversation: "Yeah, I got a price from another contractor, it's a thousand dollars cheaper, or maybe two thousand dollars cheaper." Or maybe they're more — and that's fine. You're not going to win every one of those conversations. But when you have a situation like that where somebody's cheaper, you've got to say, "Well, kind of comes back on the customer a little bit — why do you think they're...

55:15...cheaper? Like, are you sure they're doing the same things we are? And if they are and they're cheaper, then that's a very good, viable option." Yeah. But I know, like for us, when we put a price on something, it's kind of our best kick at the can most of the time. So it's a situation where they may call and say, "Well, so-and-so is so much cheaper than...

55:39...you." Well, if they're a reputable company — and there are, I mean, there are companies in certain demographics — if they call people who call, that's kind of borderline out of our service area. There are companies that we recommend in every demographic. And like, especially in Sussex — long-term. Yeah, like especially in St. John and Moncton, there is some overlap from both sides. But luckily there seems to be lots of work for everybody. So we're not...

56:09...trying to do anything in direct competition. But if there's a situation where — especially on the residential side of things — but yeah, there are some good companies out there, and sometimes we end up recommending them. Or if they say that they got a price from them, then, you know, right — if it's a company that has a five- or six-man crew, it doesn't have the same overhead, does a good job, yeah, of course they're going to have a...

56:33...lower number most of the time. That's right. And they're located in that local area and maybe it's harder for you to get to, so yeah, just recommend it, right? And for every good company out there, there are people that need to be on the lookout for the companies that — "paper won't refuse" Inc. So they can write whatever they want on that piece of paper and hand it to you, and you're looking at that price on the bottom. Put two quotes...

56:55...side by side and they say the exact same thing: "Going to dig out unsuitable material, going to pave with X amount — three inches, or two and a half inches of asphalt." Well, just because it says that on the paper doesn't necessarily mean that that's what you're going to get for a finished project. And if you're seeing a pretty big spread in the gap, you've got to do your due diligence as a consumer as well. But it's it's...

57:21...tough because like I say, you can have quotes that look like apples-to-apples and you get finished products that are apples-to-oranges. Kind of like the golden rule of business: do what you say you're going to do, how you say you're going to do it, when you say you're going to do it — and you'll be okay. Yeah, you'll be good to go. Easier said than done. That's right. What about EZ Street? Yeah, so we're essentially — we would install, minus 20. Yeah, for sure. So...

57:50...we're kind of the Eastern Canada, Maritime Provinces retail exclusive — yes, yeah — exclusive producer and retailer for that. Any manufacturers? Yeah, we manufacture it in-house, yeah. So what's different about the manufacturing process? So it's a product — yeah, so the big thing for EZ Street: typically if you've got a cold-mix asphalt, it's kind of a one-shot deal. So the material and the tar is put together, it's mixed up, it gets dumped on the ground, it gets stockpiled, and then gets...

58:18...used up throughout the winter season. With EZ Street, it's kind of a two-part manufacturing process. So along with the specifically formulated product that EZ Street has produced, in the manufacturing process you would dry the material and pre-coat the material, then let that material cool down. So what that does is it lets that tar start to really stick to that stone. Because the biggest thing with cold-mix asphalt typically is it doesn't really bond well — it doesn't bond well to...

58:52...itself, then it's not going to bond well to the road. So the idea behind using dried, pre-coated material is that once it cools down, you put it back through again and you've got a really, really well-coated stone that is really, really sticky. So the idea behind EZ Street is that it bonds better than most things, and therefore even in cold temperatures it's still malleable — yeah, it's still malleable — but it's still going to bond to itself. So if you've got that pothole, I...

59:22...mean, the main value proposition for that product is if it's wintertime you want some patching done. Yeah, your whole driveway in it? Yeah, no — that's right, that's right. The cost would be, you know, on the high side — it's a lot unless you needed something paved, yeah, exactly, during that time of year. 100 percent. There are customers all the time that come in and buy a couple bags to fix a pothole in their driveway, and it works great. It's cost...

59:47...effective for what they're doing. But service trenches and stuff like that — that's a big one too. Like the municipalities: there's nothing worse than trying to maintain gravel or crushed rock in a service cut in the middle of a busy road all winter long. So the idea behind the cold-mix asphalt, especially with EZ Street — where it does stay very malleable and you can actually pave over it with hot mix in the summer — you don't have to chisel it out or do...

60:14...anything with it, right? It can stay in place and you can be paved grade over top. So you can get those service trenches or those potholes fixed up and it saves you from maintaining them throughout the winter. Yeah. I'm just thinking of, like, some commercial projects where obviously you never get the schedule to go the way you want it. And you think it may be different types of buildings — like schools are opening in the fall. But what about a public space, or a multi-res...

60:38...or, you know, a private developer who has a building opening that just got finished? It's December, the temperatures are now minus 10, it's going to stay that way for a few months, and he wants to open the building. Would he not consider using this product to pave, or are you just going to use a regular product? Yeah, you would — typically with something like that, for a parking lot, you're going to hold off. Yeah, because the cost is significant compared to your standard...

61:02But what about the cost? Yeah, I guess so — you can hold off? Yeah, it gets a little tricky. You've kind of got to weigh out your costs and stuff on it. But I know, with a parking lot like that — it's going to keep you from occupancy maybe. Sometimes it could, it could definitely. But yeah, there are all kinds of products out there. And yeah, the EZ...

61:31Street — that's a big one. So we ship that all over the Maritimes, and sometimes into Quebec and central Canada too. Yeah. I'm not sure — like, I know, like Labrador — we've shipped some to Labrador. Like Memorial University Newfoundland, their service department, their maintenance crew has ordered it. You guys have internal logistics for shipping stuff out too, like trucking and stuff? Yeah, we saw — yeah, like seven out, kind of thing...

61:57...and like, you know, we use the local logistics companies — like Armour or Day & Ross, of course. Yeah, yeah. And then a lot of those, some of these properties and stuff will have their own — I'm sorry, I'm looking for the word here — they'll have their own trucking crew, or they may have their own trucking. Like they may pick it up in bulk, or they may — because we can ship...

62:25...it in bulk, or if we bag it on deliveries and stuff like that. Yeah, yeah. But it's one of those things — if they have an account with a logistics company, then they'll just kind of give us a call: "Truck's going to be there at four o'clock, I want two pallets of this, or I want a couple of bulk sacks of this." And we'll just make sure it's loaded, ready to go. Sure, good. Down there, nice. What about on the...

62:49...machinery side — are you seeing a lot of new technology and stuff when it comes to the gear and the machinery? I mean it's kind of — pretty standard, yeah. You need the standard pieces of equipment. Yeah, exactly. Grader, asphalt spreader, roller, stuff like that. Like for us, we do a lot of laser instruments and stuff for leveling and leveling rates. But I mean there's definitely technology on...

63:20...exactly. Yeah, yeah, they have Topcon. Yeah. So what colour is the laser — is it green or red? Ours are red. I mean, I think you've got all kinds — you put it up with a reflector or something? Yeah, exactly. You've got a head unit that monitors, you've got your rod that shows you your increments of grade, and from there you kind of base your percentages off distance and stuff like that. Do you need to outsource the survey crew, like a civil would sometimes? Or no?

63:42Not typically. I mean, we do have some stuff in-house — total stations and stuff like that — that we can actually do our own plan creation. Yeah, and stuff. But for the most part — back to some driveways, you get a lot of different — oh, definitely. And with streets, if there's curb and gutter on a street somewhere, well, essentially you're just putting a two-percent grade to the road...

64:05...to the curb, and it's pretty straightforward stuff. You've got controls in place that show you where you need to be. But like for us, we do have some instruments for the grader — that's going to help — like we've got a sloping laser for it, and it's got a head unit on the mouldboard of the grader that can help when you're in the, we'll...

64:30...say, the finicky grades — when you're kind of splitting hairs to get water to run one way or the other. We'll utilize something like that to definitely help us out — anything that's going to make life easier, right? So it ensures that the water is going where it needs to go, for sure. And so, with — like as far as New Brunswick and those areas — are there other paving companies the same size, bigger? Are you guys one of the longer-lasting ones? Yeah...

64:57...we've been around for a while. And there are huge paving companies in New Brunswick and Nova Scotia — guys that are into everything. You're looking at, you know, some of the big guys out there, whether they're in waste management and all this other stuff — civil, waste management, asphalt, flatworks. Yeah, you hear about the Oceans and the Dexters and some of...

65:23...those, yeah, exactly. So there are some big companies out there. But as far as like a private, solely paving company, we're kind of that mid-size — we're a pretty good size company in a good niche. Yeah, we're in a comfortable place where the guys can go out and pave driveways, or if we have to, we can come behind some crews and go put asphalt in the ground — whether it be...

65:46...a big parking lot or a street somewhere. Whatever we've got to do. That's kind of the benefit of having a core group of guys that have worked in all aspects of the industry: when they're called upon to help out, they've all got their ducks in a row, they know what's up. So we can kind of join forces and make stuff happen when need be. But for the most part, we've got our...

66:12...dedicated prep crews, we've got our paving crew, we've got our patch crew, we've got the concrete, and then we've got our plant and then we've got the two guys — the two mad scientists in the shop trying to keep everything together — and the two secretaries holding everything together. So yeah. And then wintertime, you know, we do have some plowing operations and stuff. But for the first part there are three to four guys — like the supervisors that would be there in the summer — they kind of move into the...

66:40...and again, I mean, just let's go to your part of patience — just to sort them out, right? In, yeah, yeah. So then, and there's hell when you're trying to glue stuff back together and make sure we're ready for another season. Crazy, yeah. So does it ever happen where some of these larger companies in New Brunswick that are busy and have jobs might call you and sub something out to you, kind of thing? Is that happening? Yeah, it can happen, yeah, for sure. Yeah, yeah. And I...

67:04...mean, at the end of the day, we're all just out there trying to stay busy. So you do have communication and almost a working together with the competition? For the most part, yeah — there's always the other side of things too. But anytime they'd reach out and need a hand, or vice versa — we're definitely not blacklisting anybody. At the end of the day...

67:31...we've all been in situations where you need a hand — if you can give a hand, give a hand. And for the greater good. Any advice for anyone out there who has a small paving company, or who is starting one? Yeah. The biggest thing for me is: don't sacrifice quality over quantity. If you're somebody that's thinking about getting into it — do good quality work, slowly move up...

68:02...towards it, 100 percent. Yeah. Because the biggest thing — and everybody knows this — is a bad reputation is going to travel way faster than a good one. And it's pretty much a small place here in Atlantic Canada. That's right. It's hard to hide for very long. If there was somebody that was tempted to get into the industry, I think that's what I'd say: just take your time, do everything as it should be. And I'm just...

68:28...thinking here in Nova Scotia — with how busy things are, same in New Brunswick, PEI too, yeah — there's room for some smaller companies to start doing some commercial work in there. It almost has to be, right? Yeah, these companies can't do everything. They're too busy. And that's the thing — I think as you progress as a paving company, you can really get caught up in, I don't want to say the easy work, but like I said about that long duration...

68:52...stuff: the logistics are so much easier on bigger jobs. Because if you're paving a street, you're there for three days; you pave a good-sized parking lot, you could be there for a day, you could be there for three days. So the logistics are so much easier on that bigger work. So sometimes you'll get into a situation where, if you're a big company, you need a lot of work to maintain what you have to move forward. So there's fierce...

69:21...competition in that market. But it kind of leaves an open niche area where you've got driveways and maybe smaller parking lots and different stuff that, you know, sometimes they can't even get a price for because it's just too difficult. Right, because everyone is busy. I mean, construction as a whole — people are busy, busy, busy. And it's hard. And I know, even for us, like some of our customers — I shouldn't even say...

69:53...customers, but potential customers — people calling for estimates. I bet we've done over a thousand estimates this spring, and there are probably 300 more if I opened up the list to see. There are probably 300 estimates left to do — these people might have called in April but we just haven't gotten to them. So the majority of those — like, would they be new builds? Or yeah, yeah, new builds, or people we haven't necessarily paved for before but who want...

70:24...to get paved, you know. So well, I'm seeing even here in Nova Scotia — there are some tenders going in the rural part of Nova Scotia where jobs under $10-15 million just can't get anyone to price the scope of work. You can barely get two quotes for each scope. I know — with last year there was such an influx, such an increase I guess you should say, in pricing, that municipalities were caught off guard. Where...

70:52...they had budgeted the previous year, and then you're seeing some of these prices roll in. Once you factor in the increased costs, you might see an engineer's estimate of 1.5 and the job is coming in at 2.2, 2.3 — where do you come up with that extra six, seven, eight hundred thousand dollars? It's just shocking, right? But unfortunately, we're all kind of stuck in the same vice — we're all feeling the pressure of cost...

71:21...increases. And yeah, it's hard — it's tough to keep up with it. And from your margins, trying to decide what the price should be and what's not — it's tough. That's right. Yeah, yeah. And that's the thing — I think that's another thing in the industry that's probably not talked about, but it should be: margins are tight. I mean, you know, it's not like you go to the grocery store and you pay five dollars for a two-litre bottle of pop...

71:52...and that bottle of pop costs 50 cents to make. It's not like that with asphalt and paving and construction. You've got your costs factored in — heavy, heavy costs. I mean, I know our margins are tight enough that if — hard drive? No, you know — if it comes to a small driveway, if our paving crew is there for some reason for an extra hour and it takes a little bit more asphalt, the margins are gone. That's how tight stuff...

72:22...is run, right? Compared to, like, take drywall interiors and cladding, you know, where material is 25 percent and labour is the rest for setting purposes. So labour-intensive, whereas higher-end products — I was talking about building envelope and cladding — it'd be more like a 50/50, sometimes 60/40 split between labour and materials. So expensive. But for asphalt, what was it — 50/50? What's your split there where the material cost — it's certainly higher than labour? It's not the...

72:57...intensive part. Like, it depends. If you're looking at, like, a small driveway — say a 500-square-foot driveway downtown Halifax — your labour versus material ratio — your labour is like 75/25. Okay, it is, yeah, right. But as much as it sounds a little bit crazy, there is that perfect-size driveway — where the guys have room to work, right crew size — so everything just fits. You've got...

73:26...just enough guys — and that's like your sweet spot. Yeah, and that's like that 2,500-to-3,000-square-foot driveway — that's kind of that optimal size where everything just works out. Okay, so and that's kind of what you're looking at where, at best, you're probably going to get 50/50. Like for your cost ratio, material versus labour. But for us most of the time it's kind of on the labour...

73:58...side of things that the ratio is heavier. Because it takes time, right? Yeah, so no — labour is the biggest one, yeah. But typically the biggest thing. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Like if it wasn't such an area — like when you're talking about driveways and stuff, at times you're looking at getting a driveway done for like the same price you'd pay for a good hardwood floor. But it's...

74:29...the fact that your hardwood floor — you know, you laid it yourself but you still paid four, four or five dollars a square foot. You did a 100 or 140-square-foot room. When you start talking about a 1,000-, 1,200-, or 1,500-square-foot driveway, it starts to add up. But that's kind of your comparison, right? Like if you want to talk square-foot price, sometimes you're at the low side of four, and...

74:56...sometimes 12 to 15 if it's a small job. But it's never priced like that for us — it just comes down to the scope of work, it comes down to tons and time. What we're going to take from material, how long we project it's going to take us to do the job — and then we'll go from there. So how concerned are you with where things are at and where they're headed — with the labour shortage? It's a big thing for everyone. It is a...

75:20...big thing. It is a big thing. I mean, you know, I used to see in the spring of the year — it would be nothing to see 40, 50 résumés stacked up on my boss's desk. And you just don't see that anymore. You haven't seen that for the last five or six years. And the turnover is pretty heavy — new hires come in and it is a tough job. There's nothing easy...

75:48...about it. It's hot and smelly — it's, you know, it's like going to hockey practice every day. It's a mission, right? But it pays well for the most part in the industry — it's up there. But it's still hard to find people that are going to want to do it. So yeah, it's tough. I mean, I think there's, like you say, no question that it's a topic on a lot of people's...

76:16...radar: it's harder to find people to go to work. And it's not your typical nine-to-four or nine-to-five. I mean, most of the guys are coming to work, they're there at 6:30, they're grabbing a coffee and they're getting their day started by seven. And a lot of guys don't know when they're going home at night. You've got to get the day's work done before you can take off. And it doesn't come...

76:41...down to the fact of there being this many hours of daylight in a day and we're going to work all of them. It just comes down to, these are the three jobs or these are the four jobs that we have today — let's get them done. Most of the guys will take it upon themselves, if they're close to being done a job at four o'clock, chances are they're going to stay until five or six to finish it. It's an extra...

77:06...few hours, you know? Yeah, and they have the opportunity to do that on the prep crew. The paving crew is a little bit different, obviously — you can't leave something half-paved unless you absolutely have to. Like, there are limitations on what we can get done in a day for sure. And there are procedures and stuff that you can take to be prepared to pave the next day in that job. But for the most part, if you...

77:32...start paving a driveway, if the bell tolls at five, you're not shutting down and going home. Yeah. You don't have that luxury. You don't have that luxury — you're getting it finished. So yeah, same thing with pouring concrete. Exactly, yeah. Anything else, Nathan, we didn't touch on that you wanted to mention? I've talked about a lot of different things, for sure — you can probably think about it when I walk out the door. That happens a lot. Yeah, finish up and say, "Oh man, I wish...

77:57...I'd brought that up," right? Yeah. It's been great, it's been great chatting with you, all about Brown's Paving and the market in New Brunswick too. And with a lot more guests coming from New Brunswick, so getting some perspective on — oh, it's great to be able to sit down and talk about some stuff and get it out there. And yeah, you know, it's a great platform for people to come on and talk about — it's conversations that...

78:20...you don't get to have every day with people. And it's good to get it out there. Yeah, I know — I've learned a few things watching your podcast and stuff too. Like, it's interesting when you're in the industry and you know a lot — but a lot of the times it's interesting even if you're not in it, because you get to kind of peek behind the curtain and see how things are going for local businesses, local contractors, and kind of get a window into...

78:46...what they're dealing with. So it is, right? I find that too — just a different perspective for different people. Yeah, GC one week and then a great subcontractor the next, and architects — everybody's got a different role; all the pieces fit together. Yeah, exactly. No, I appreciate you having me on. It's been great, man. Cheers. Thanks, Nathan. Cheers. We'd like to thank our long-time sponsor Cook Insurance. Cook is your trusted insurance broker in Atlantic Canada for 50 years. The Cook team opens...

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