How Bruno Builders Built a Vertically Integrated GC in Halifax — Procore Lessons, Labour Shortage Realities, and 700 Units in Downtown Dartmouth

0:00This episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor Pant Building Products. Pant Building Products has been providing contractors and builders with the supplies necessary to complete their job since 1964. They've built a reputation of honest, helpful, and quality service serving the HRM for the last 58 years. Now with seven locations in Nova Scotia and one in New Brunswick, our team at the Atlantic Construction Podcast is extremely excited to announce our new co-branded partner Procore. Procore is the global leader in construction management software. We'll be conducting several podcast episodes with Procore

0:31users and construction companies across the country in 2023, among many other things. Stay tuned — we're excited. Okay, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. I'm joined today by two gentlemen from Bruno Builders Group — Bruno Group. I've got Elliot MacNeil, founder and president, and Evan Boutilier, commercial construction manager. Thanks for coming in today, gentlemen, being with us and giving us your time. Thanks for having us. Thanks for having us. Congrats on your success so far. Hey, appreciate it, man. A lot of work. Yeah, a lot of work, and it's

1:09been pretty humbling. There's so many different people in our industry from different backgrounds and there's just so many people that have a voice and something to say, and yeah, a lot of fun too, though. So yeah, yeah. And looking forward to this one because you guys have a great thing going on. We've got a lot to chat about. We usually kind of kick things off just by starting with a little background that guests give — some context to our listeners. Everyone has a

1:32different journey for how they kind of got into the industry. And sure, came in — I think Evan, you went to NSCC, right? You took construction tech there years ago. Yeah, I took construction management. I guess, you know, rolling back before that, I took carpentry when I was in high school in Oklahoma, and moved into carpentry after that. In Oklahoma? Yeah, that's where you're from? The heck — you doing down there? From Bridgewater originally. The old man worked at Michelin Tire, so we moved around

1:58a little bit. Oklahoma was high school for me. So, yeah, did a little bit of labor work down there, and then took carpentry, moved into a carpenter role back here in Nova Scotia. Few years went by, I jumped into the construction management technology program. Was it still a two-year course then? It was, yeah. And from there I jumped into the commercial world, so project coordinator on site for a couple of years, and then

2:33into a site super role for three or four years, and then into a project management role after that, and then most recently the commercial construction manager role. Yeah. So when you were in the carpentry days, like, did you kind of know then — a lot of people are like, you know, this is what I want to do, I want to be on the tools and just want my own truck, get my red seal and I'm good to go — but you kind of

2:54knew then you wanted to kind of work your way up more into the management space? Yeah, I mean, there was a point — I remember in December I was swinging a hammer, hit my thumb, and I was like, yeah, I've got to move on from being on the tools. But before that I knew the plan was to pursue where I'm at basically. And that was even at a younger age — that was building forts and pretending to

3:18be a construction manager. Yeah, exactly — it was always there, right. Yeah. That's actually where I got the bug, yeah. Building forts, yeah. Absolutely, like out in the woods. And my — you know, both sides of my family had lumber mills, right? Oh, jeez. Yeah, access to lots of materials. That's where all that missing material went. Your grandfather's place. Yeah, that, and road signs. Yeah, come on, we've all done that, right? Halloween. Yeah. Great plywood — pressure treated. Yeah, yeah. So tell us a little bit

3:51about yourself — sorry, I was cutting you off. Do you have some more to say there? No, I mean, that's pretty much where I'm at in my career now. So you've been with Bruno for almost four years? Yeah, loving it — loving every bit. It's awesome. Easy to say when the boss is right there. Exactly. Yeah, yeah. No, we're lucky to have Evan. Thanks for accompanying me today too. Yeah, it's great. No, it is great to have context from a couple of different positions in the company. Yeah, absolutely

4:17for perspective. So, and yourself, Elliot — just tell us a little bit about you. You've got probably quite a story. It's hard to sum it up in a few minutes, but give us the Coles Notes. So I'm from rural Cape Breton, grew up around construction the majority of my childhood, and not too dissimilar than a good handful of larger GCs in the city, actually. Yeah, I believe RCS, Lindsay, Dora — these guys are all Cape Bretons. Cape Bretons — what's going on there?

4:50Something in the water? Something in the water — depends if you're on well or septic, or sorry, well or city. But yeah, I'm from PEI so I was like — it's because you want to get out of there bad, you're just going to work as well. You know what, that is actually part of the story as well. I'm allowed to say that because I'm from an island too — chirped about it all the time. Yeah, you know, found that passion for building things at a young age, and

5:15was left with a decision, I guess, during my high school years: do I pursue what most of the people around me do on the island, and do I go trades and construction? Or, luckily for me, the internet was coming online mid-nineties and I had bigger aspirations to pursue technology at that time. So I did, and gained education in digital design, and ended up in Halifax. I had high

5:51hopes of going to the US as well, actually, to follow some family, but ended up in Halifax and built and exited a really cool digital design agency here in the city. And simultaneously got into — started flexing that muscle for building things, right — and got into buying, building, renovating property. Evolved into building custom homes, started in residential, and found myself at City Hall pushing development agreements and permits. Got my first

6:34taste of what it was like to create real value with property, and finding an edge on an everyday property, finding new ways to unlock value. And what was it like, the first experience — like, you're saying at City Hall and kind of going through the permitting phase and zoning? It was daunting. I was young, twenties, trying to get initial units added to duplexes and whatnot. And you know, I still remember

7:01changing clothes in the bathroom at the end of the day in the office and putting the gear on and actually going and doing the work in some of these projects. And you know, it took that grind. I almost burnt myself out, obviously, trying to do both businesses at the same time. But I was lucky I did. And after 10 years of doing both and exiting that other company, I decided to pursue construction and real estate full-time.

7:28And I was lucky enough to build a lot of great business relationships through those 10 years of being in the agency business — and right, as an entrepreneur still. Yeah, yeah. You know, I just love people. I love meeting new people and learning about them and building those circles, those networks. And I've done that the minute I landed in Halifax. So anyway, to circle back there, through those 10 years or so, and then

7:59through those business circles I was getting invited to help others with projects, and I didn't know everything. The fundamentals — I was not formally trained in engineering or as a project manager, but some of the project management fundamentals are similar in a lot of organizations depending on what you're building or managing anyway. I was in search for medium-sized GCs at that time to help both myself and these other kind of consulting clients — I was doing basically owner's rep

8:37work. And I was having a hell of a time finding medium-sized GCs that had their act together. There wouldn't be that many options out there, right? There really wasn't. You know, this was 10 years ago or so, and just communication and understanding proposals and budgets and scheduling and being accountable and responsive. And it was through that process that I found Bruno Builders, really. I just saw an opportunity in the

9:10market to kind of correct all those issues, those challenges, and kind of found a friendly contractor — people-first mentality with the operations of a bigger GC in a small organization. And essentially carried over that culture and that experience I had built in the advertising world into a company that really looked at doing it a little differently — not coming from a large organization and adopting a lot of those same approaches and principles. And that's how I started to

9:42attract others that were in the industry that were maybe looking for doing it a little bit differently — with true relationships first. And yeah, that's one of the — not to cut you off, you have something on the tip of your tongue there, but one of the interesting things about being able to engage so many different people on the show in the industry is, you know, the stories. You have an interesting story, right?

10:10Obviously entrepreneurial — sounds like you started a business right out of university, came to Halifax, 10 years doing that. But you can see like people might think, gee, that's quite a jump or quite a pivot from advertising, marketing in that space, over to construction. But when you look at it a certain way, not necessarily. I mean, it's people, you're selling, you're seeing opportunities, and then the fact that you'd seen a need for a GC — and then why don't I just

10:40do that myself? But also you were saying you didn't have a lot of the hard skills — like you weren't an engineer, you're not an experienced carpenter. And a lot of times those are the things that kind of stop people from taking that leap because, well, you can't be everything. And if you're a business owner, it's not that you don't respect the trades that are doing what they do — it's a craft, it's an art. But hey, you can't have those

11:04skills unless you're doing it every day for 10 years. So that does stop certain people from entering into that space, right? Can be intimidating, you know, especially on the blue-collar side — like, you've got to know your stuff. And if you don't come from that background, you know, there might be... So it's an interesting story of how you ended up with what you've built. Right. I mean, if I didn't have a childhood of doing those things and learning how to frame a wall when I was 11, shoot myself

11:29with a nail gun when I was 15, you know, I wouldn't have had the confidence — I earned my stripes in a small way, right. Yeah. So that gave you the... yeah. And then building those relationships with trades early and understanding — I didn't... The reality is, yeah, when you're building a business it's about putting the right people around you and leading them in the right direction and building them up and developing those people. And you say it's a lot like a coach

11:59and a professional sports team — absolutely, cultivating people around you that can win. Absolutely. You're getting to know them intimately almost. And I was lucky to have built — I'm proud and blessed to have built what we have today. And the people, it's the people that are around me and that we're lucky enough to have that are able to create and pull off the many

12:37projects we have. But you obviously — I know what we're doing — that speaks for itself. Yeah, absolutely. So yeah, that's kind of the transition and founding of Bruno Builders, almost 10 years ago. And I'd say for the last seven it's been scaling quite quickly. Yeah, quite a good pace. Yeah, quite a splash. And good timing, the market's good now. Absolutely, really busy. Yeah. So maybe we'll, you know — lots of things to chat about, but again, for

13:12context for our listeners: it started with Bruno Builders on the construction side. Now you've got, within Bruno Group, BLACK + BRU — Black and Brew, that's right — and Sidewalk RED. That's right. Sidewalk RED, Sidewalk Real Estate Development. Yes. So you're wrapping your arms around — back story on those? Yeah. So together as a group we're north of 50 people now. We're a vertically integrated organization. Bruno Builders is primarily a design-build focused medium-sized GC. A lot of

13:52negotiated work. And for our listeners, can you just kind of clarify "medium size" — like, what are the project sizes that you're kind of, not capping out, but taking on? Yeah. So we would, I guess concurrently, have approximately a dozen projects at any given time. They would range from a lot of, you know, fit-ups to new construction buildings that would range in size from 4,000 to 20,000 square foot buildings or projects. Lots of

14:25different values along the way there as far as project size. Incredible clientele — for the most part entrepreneurs or business owners that are looking for a nimble, intimate kind of build. And 75% of our work would be commercial and 25% custom residential. We'd run about four large custom residential projects at a time — oceanfront homes or massive reno and addition projects. Some of these homes can almost be as big as some of the commercial stuff that you might take on as

15:03far as value goes too, yeah. Really nice builds, yeah. And fun to be part of, right, when you're dealing with a custom home like that and it's lots of high-end design and materials. Yeah. And we employ a commercial model — a commercial approach to running the project within our residential projects. That's what we believe is what allows us to function at scale in the residential space. If you can figure that out with your client, it's not easy — it's a very, right,

15:36personal, emotional journey for that owner. Sure. And so, but in some ways we started there, way back, right. So we get that. And we're lucky to be able to do it at scale and again of course have lots of great people that make it happen, from different self-performing carpenters to project managers. Yeah, yeah. That's a far different approach than kind of building on spec where you're kind of building — not cookie-cutter, but like the same home numerous times. This is very custom, very unique.

16:06Yeah, different consultants every time. Yeah, yeah, it's challenging but cool. Yeah. Maybe, Evan, can we talk about your position at the company as a commercial construction manager? Is it — are you managing, is there, you know, five fit-ups downtown Halifax, maybe some new restaurants that are happening or new retail stores — and the site supers are there, and you're kind of looking after each one? Just a little bit about kind of the operational side

16:35of the commercial. Sure. I know, hard to sum up. Yeah. The term "construction manager" can mean very different things in different organizations, but primarily my role now is I'm still doing project management. We do still have some other project managers with us as well, and you know, we have a great team on the commercial side doing project work. I oversee them, yeah. I try to get involved in all their projects, but they're running their

17:03projects still. Yeah. So at a higher level I'm assisting them and coaching them as best I can. But, you know, they do a great job, so it makes my job a little easier. Yeah, certainly. The site supers are pretty key. Yeah, have those guys on site — exactly. Even having our site supers, yeah, they're the rate limiter to growth. Yeah, absolutely. And that's what we're all experiencing — shortage, especially for those certain positions

17:31where you need to have that experience. You can put somebody else there and they can't hold the boundary because they just don't have it. Yeah. But how do you find that yourself as far as the labor shortage right now? I mean, it's impacting everyone. Well, what are your thoughts on — we, you know, post-COVID and during COVID we realized, well, as most of your audience would know, people don't really respond to job ads anymore. You know, it's like those days are over, in a crazy way. Done, right?

18:01Over. And so you have to find other ways of attracting these unicorns now. And, or developing them. And so we realized last year that we have to change our approach and start to rethink how you develop people. And I think having a clear purpose and values as an organization helps you find the right people, to ensure they're in the right seats, and then use the experience within, with a great plan, to develop these

18:46talented people. So if you can find — if you understand how to build a culture and have an organization, an environment where people want to be and want to spend their time and enjoy the people they're working with and have opportunities to work on great projects — you can coach, you can develop, you can fill in the gap. The key is the alignment around the people and your core values. Yeah. I mean, the coaching approach, as opposed to

19:21the sink-or-swim approach, seems to be working. If you have somebody there, you see they're a sponge, you see they have confidence — it's mainly just experience they're lacking but the pieces are there. Like, you might have that site super in three years from now if you start investing. It's kind of what you get right — like it's an investment. Could be, could be longer. You might meet someone on the weekend and see an alignment between who you are, who your organization is, and who they are,

19:47and they may have little understanding of the industry or come from a different sector or area. And you've got to see something in them before they even see it themselves. Yeah. So it's a coaching model we have internally, and it's a lot easier said than done. I was just going to say, I mean, that is an ongoing, ever-improving process. Anyone who's come up in construction, I'm

20:20sure you guys can relate. Yeah. One of the things you feel, especially as a younger person, is like, I want to ask but I don't know — like, is anyone going to take the time to show me? Everyone's so busy. Time and money, time and money. We don't have time to show people things, right? But do we have time not to show them? It's a tough one. And you want people to ask questions — as an owner, management, as a leader, you want, like, ask, ask, ask as much as you

20:44want. I mean, not too much, but you've got to slow down — you've got to slow down with the pace everything's running at right now. You know, that's an adjustment. It's also hard to say no. As I said, the rate limiter on supers — it's hard to say that, but you know, you're tying up a super for it and you can't do it. Absolutely. You could have 12 jobs in the pipeline and no one to resource them. So you've got to be good at saying no.

21:15And someone told me once, you'll never hurt your brand by saying no, and it's true. Would you say you have to learn that the hard way? Is that the only way to learn that? I mean, I know it just takes discipline, I think. Yeah. You know what, maybe when you have that urge — and the same gifting that enables you to get a company off the ground — it's hard to say no when you have that

21:38energy. Gets a lot of companies in trouble, yeah. Common tale, and it's very... yeah. Doesn't matter — I've made those mistakes myself. Lots of people have. We all have. Yeah. Hopefully everyone learns from them and can change without too much damage. Yeah, yeah. Because there's a lot at stake. A lot happened — the industry got really busy and all the sub-trades got really busy. And you saw a lot of projects suffer from that — from taking on too much work. And you get

22:10into the summer, it's everyone's vacation mode, taking vacations, and the projects get behind. Permit delays — it had everything the last couple of years, right? It seems to have come full circle. Things seem to be getting better on that front. I think a lot of people learned their lesson over the last couple of years. Yeah. So for you, Evan, as construction manager in commercial — are you kind of involved, like say from day one when you engage a client, with

22:39budgeting, talking about the preliminary plan, tendering out — do you like to be, especially with the larger ones, kind of in there from day one? Or do you kind of hand things off as you go? Yeah, yeah. If you're involved in the project from day one, you understand the full capacity of that project and what the client expects of that project. I am doing most of the estimating right now and kind of the getting-to-know-you meet-and-greets with the clients. And what software do you use for estimating? Do you use BlueBeam or anything like that? Yeah, the old

23:08Koh-I-Noor number two HB, hands on the pencil. Yeah, lots of people still do that. Yeah, yeah. But in Excel, yeah. So, lots of budgeting exercises through to get some of these projects off the ground, which helps the client understand what these projects might cost before they get too far

23:39into it, which can certainly alleviate — and a lot of time is invested in that too if it doesn't come to fruition, right? Spend a year, you know, building that relationship and the project doesn't even happen. But it's the just the nature of the biz, so yeah. So as far as the team there, like, is there some junior estimators on staff as well that you're kind of training? Or is it that the project managers primarily take care of estimating? So we do

24:07have that model. That's not a bad thing necessarily — they're hands-on, they have that intuition with the jobs and the labor, and understand the job. Like I said, you know, if you're part of the estimating process and you price that project and see that project through, you have no one to blame it on — blame it on yourself I guess. But yeah, that never works. Go around in circles. I watch. Yeah. So it's a good thing that we typically see

24:36the project from day one right through. Yeah. Do you want to mention some of the past projects that you've worked on? I used to like Julii Wine Bar. I know you guys did that. It's a great spot — it's kind of sad that it had to have an early close. Obviously a lot of people in that arena having to do that. Yeah. But you guys have done a lot of nice fit-ups downtown, all kinds, whether it be a hotel or multi-res and homes —

24:59like, has anything kind of been one of those projects where you're like, really proud of it, or anything currently or coming down the pipe that you want to kind of mention? We're coming off a few really great ones right now that Evan was obviously part of all of them. Clean Foundation, Clean Foundation — which was a design-build project, which was an office fit-up just north of 6,000 feet, I believe. That's stealing your thunder a little bit. But you engaged an architect for

25:27that, or you kind of design-interior design — Design 360 or something? It was Design 360, was it? They did an incredible — they're an incredible partner of ours. Yeah, yeah. In the industry, they work with a lot of great builders here. And that's what they are, right — a partner. Like it's pretty — it truly is. When you start that early with a client, you've got a project team. The success is born from that day, I believe, of that project.

25:55They have a good process as well, so it really helps with our process. Yeah. NOVONIX — that's another great client of ours. We just completed two builds last year for them. They're a battery technology — okay, battery technology, international, founded here. One of the success — battery stories, one of the success stories that have come out of Dartmouth, actually. Chris Burns as one of the founders. Yeah, nice. That was, those were some

26:29large projects for us and noteworthy. MDW Law — that was a recent one we finished up just for Christmas there. Corner of Young and Brunswick — and King Street, actually. So converting an old coffee shop. Yeah, yeah. And add a third — my old... I used to call it my coffee office before we had an office, way back. We go back 10 years. So it's come full circle. I can't do Tim's, but well, I live right next to one. So I said that

27:02to myself and I was like, you know what, as long as I live here I'm just not going to drink Tim's. That just didn't work. Yeah. No, I went to Greece and I was a changed man. I had real coffee. Yeah, yeah. Recommend it. Yeah, that was a great transformation on the corner. Yeah, yeah. Sterling Architects was involved in that one and really put a touch on it that kept it with the same feel as the rest of

27:28the community, I would say — like the rest of that area. Quick shout out to the newest sponsor of the show: The Stone Depot. The Stone Depot is located in Bayers Lake, Halifax, but serves all of the East Coast. The showroom is over 8,000 square feet — perfect for masonry contractors, landscaping contractors, builders, developers. Regardless, The Stone Depot is a great option for you, whether you're doing fire pits, patio stones, kitchen and interior stones. So if you're looking for a great stone supplier, visit The Stone Depot. This episode is brought

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28:50can be modified to your needs. Consider making the pivot today — book a free consultation at pivotbookkeeping.com. So what was the material on the exterior — what was on the envelope? It's mostly Maibec — white vertical siding. We had some panels on there as well, but yeah, it's just... it's a Hydrostone neighbour. Yeah, yeah, okay, yeah. And it's actually a fully female-run law firm, three-storey — unbelievable project, unbelievable company, great story. Yeah, I remember seeing some articles about that job. Yeah. I

29:26think that is one of the differentiators with a lot of our projects — we get to work with really great entrepreneurs. Like, if you think about it, is it just lined up that way or is it because you have that mission in mind and that's how — oh, both, both. I think as a — with the side projects, as an entrepreneur, and we're not so big that I'm sitting in the background somewhere — you know, I'm very passionate about meeting

29:53these business owners. And you're quite quickly introduced from one to another. And we've niched out — well, we've carved out a bit of a niche there where we're working directly with business owners that have successful organizations. They're not necessarily startups; they've proven themselves — they're mature or adolescent companies. And we align in our values, what we're trying to do with our cultures, the hiring challenges — we really

30:23come together from a business standpoint and connect from a people standpoint. And then beyond that it's just about building the project, really. I always say, if that owner sits down with a set of drawings in front of three different companies — what's the difference? The end result should be a pretty similar space. So what is the differentiator? The experience, the experience. Yeah. Did you enjoy working — did the owner enjoy working with the client or the contractor? And there's a stigma out there for a lot of owners that are about to do

30:57construction — that a lot of the experiences aren't good. I mean, sometimes they're not. But do you think — it just takes a lot of attention. You need to be very attentive to these business owners. What's your slogan on the yellow signs again? "Let's be friends." I remember — I don't know when, but I know I don't know who it was that said it — but I remember walking by one of those signs and somebody was next to me, somebody

31:20from the industry. We're talking, and he looked over and said, that's an odd thing to have on a construction company sign. And I thought, well, maybe not — you know, like, maybe that's a really good idea. Maybe that's really good marketing, is what I thought. The approach can be softened a bit in construction. It has been. And I think there's a lot of owners that are looking for that. Well, it's certainly changed a lot in the last 20 years. Absolutely. More in the last five to 10. It's more and more collaborative,

31:52a collaborative approach. Absolutely. And you know, if we sit down and have a glass of wine within months of finishing a project with a client or with an owner, it wasn't unsuccessful. And luckily I believe we do that with almost every client. And if we haven't, we can get there. Yeah, and you're still in business, so you're still doing — you're still making margin. You know, like, I can appreciate big GCs and operating at scale and what it takes. Absolutely, appreciate that. And that's not what we're trying to do. It's

32:27not who we're trying to be. So we don't want to — we always want to be able to have that personal touch. And it's a lot easier when you're 30-some people than it is when you're 300. Right. So that's in your mind when you're having a meeting with your team, with Evan and some of the others, and you're pursuing a project — you're thinking, are we ready to make something happen or sign documents? You're thinking, okay, this looks pretty tight — like, I don't know if we're going to be able to pull

32:53this off. Or if there's something about it that's not going to enable you to sit down with them at the end, then you're probably going to stay away from it, right? Like, that's kind of the — yes. We don't require the volume of work that other organizations may need, other construction companies. So you accomplish that by being picky about what you take on and who you — you know, the size of projects, but the scenario, the clients — many different things. It's easier to

33:22identify projects that will bring challenges and, if you want to call them red flags — but it's easier to identify those. Everything's easier when you're smaller, right? Really. And we're not small, you know, but we're at that size where we can be really attentive around all of those things. Because you're right, it's like hiring wrong — you can onboard the wrong project, and it can really hurt. Yeah. So getting ahead of that as a

33:58team. Yeah, we're not taking everything that comes across the table, that's for sure. But I don't know how picky we are — I don't know if that's the right word. We might not be the right word. We're not usually too picky — we'll take the work, right? That's kind of the thing in construction. Yeah, that's it. But as Elliot said, we do sit back and evaluate what that project looks like and are we going to be

34:20successful at it. Yeah, yeah. Make a judgment call — are we the right fit? Yeah, fit. Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's an interesting statement you made earlier — it's kind of like hiring the wrong person. Like taking on the wrong job — that can really shake you up quite a bit as a business owner. If you saw something in someone, you know, you put them in a place where you thought they could

34:46thrive, and maybe they're not. Or you take on a job you didn't see coming — it can be hard to point to somebody else, right? You want to trust your gut and you want to keep that confidence. But what's your experience like with that? I mean, you can't always be right. I met with a fellow contractor in the industry this week and they hired the wrong project manager. They were flat-out busy, really believed in what this guy had pitched. He wasn't

35:21blinded by how busy they were where, like, I just want — I wish this guy was what he's not. They really thought that. They were led to believe that he was fully capable and competent, and they did some early check-ins and everything seemed fine. He talked the talk. And he ran three jobs into the ground within a year. And I mean, that is detrimental to everyone — the owners, the contractor. It didn't work out. And I think that is the real challenge

35:52of today — you need those positions, everyone needs people really bad, as we know. There are limited resources, limited options, and mistakes are going to occur more often now, I think. So how you recruit, how you hire, how you onboard, how you coach — it's, again, this goes across the industry. We've got some pretty crazy examples of things that have happened that we've seen in the last while. Yeah, yeah. And of course there's going to be

36:23mistakes, man. It kind of makes me think of like a scout who calls up that guy just one year too early to the big leagues and ruins his career. You know, it's just like — but he thought, you know, he's trusting his gut and he's seeing all the signs. Like, it's a good analogy. It happens. But yeah. I know. What — this is maybe on-topic off-topic — we just did a Brewhaha as our version of a town hall. We had a town

36:50hall where we bring the whole group together, and we're just sharing some of the realities of what the next — realities, companies together. Yeah, that's when we bring the whole group together and we're just sharing some of the challenges and real-life examples of what we're seeing in the industry right now. And someone shared an example of a drywall contractor that was on one of our sites and, you know, the guys were on YouTube trying to figure out how to tape. That is not a good sign. That's

37:21not a good sign. We've also received, wow, you know, engineer-stamped drawings, electrical drawings

37:34with no outlets — no receptacles in the whole building, on all the drawings. So steps are skipped, things are rushed. It's, there are some real challenges out there right now. Yeah. And with the amount of new work being awarded, it's even scarier what's going to happen. Yeah. And it's hard to take on some of those projects, not just if you don't have the right site super on your staff or enough project management — if you don't have overflow, like it's

38:04— what about the trades? Because the trades are busy and the job doesn't fit for them, like they're not going to price it aggressively. Plus if they're new, we don't know them — we've never worked with them. It goes down the whole hierarchy, right. Yeah, yeah. Soon as you think — I'm sure you deal with that all the time. Yeah, yeah. I mean, they're going through the same pain we are. As soon as they have someone that's a great fit, they might move

38:26on, and then they're back to square one looking for that next person to fill that role. So, but yeah, and where the market's so busy right now, you get some of the smaller ones — just thinking of HVAC, for example. You know, they're only running three or four guys when they could double that and still not keep up with the amount of work they have on. And yeah, but there's everyone's just spread thin is what it seems like.

38:52So yeah. And I'm assuming, like any GC, your preferred subcontractors are a pretty major part of your success. Over 10 years you guys have built that with a lot of the right-sized trades and whatnot, but there's always going to be gaps here and there, right? Yeah, no, building those relationships is key. You really trust those guys and lean on those guys to make the whole project a success. And the company's success. So I don't think we

39:24give them enough credit sometimes. But those relationships are certainly there. That's a good point. Yeah. So maybe, can we talk about — is there a few projects now where you kind of have Sidewalk RED, BLACK + BRU, and Bruno Builders all involved on the same site? As an owner and the construction side — does it sometimes happen, where maybe Bruno Builders is involved over here on the construction, BLACK + BRU doesn't necessarily mean that

39:55you're able to do the construction on — or just a bit of context? Sure. So yeah, we spoke of Bruno Builders, but BLACK + BRU is a construction manager. They are the multi-residential, multi-family building arm of the group. So the majority of our work is focused on in-house projects. Born of Sidewalk RED. And we are currently considering pursuing select third-party multi-family projects. Okay. And one exciting project we've embarked on is the conversion of the Centennial office tower building on Hollis. Wow.

40:44Bruno — so to have all three lined up on that one? Not yet. So Sidewalk RED would lead the charge on the development side of the project, BLACK + BRU would be the CM partner for that build, and then where Bruno Builders would fit is within a tenant fit-up — let's say if there's ground floor commercial, several levels. Yeah, yeah. And so that would be an example of utilizing all three. But for the most part, Sidewalk RED and BLACK +

41:12BRU are intertwined. Is there construction underway there yet? Yes, actually, yes. We started demo, okay, month and a half ago, okay. And are moving through the building, yeah, currently. Quickly, quickly. Yeah. It's going well. It's an exciting project. We've picked up another office tower in downtown Dartmouth within the Sidewalk RED group of properties. And we're actually one of the largest landowners in downtown Dartmouth now, within Sidewalk RED. Wow. That was going back a number of years again, around the time of founding Bruno

41:49Builders. I did my first larger medium-sized real estate development project over there and just learned everything I needed to know about that market and kept it on the down-low, right. And saw a big opportunity on the Dartmouth side — right in the downtown. And we've acquired a large pipeline of projects there. We have about 700 more units to build downtown. We first started with the commercial — rebuilt a lot of the retail. So a lot of the tenants you may be familiar

42:22with in a lot of our buildings are the breweries. There's Lake City Cider and Brightwood Brewery and The Canteen and the Rio gym. And I mean, the list goes on — a lot of Portland Street and a lot of the side streets. Oxus restaurant — we're just adding another restaurant to the side of that. What's funny for you guys is they have all these connections with people in different businesses, whether it's the service industry or the fitness industry, and you build those relationships within the downtown core. Yeah, builds community.

42:49Yeah, yeah. Something interesting we're doing right now — we build great relationships with these tenants and we're so proud of what downtown Dartmouth has become through this ecosystem of young, entrepreneurial, curated tenants that all work well together. You know, we sold the Canteen building to the Canteen owners and it was such a win-win — it was good for everybody, even the community. And now we're considering doing the same thing with our other smaller buildings that have really great

43:20operators within them. Yeah. Because it's a challenge — think of being a restaurant and buying a building and renovating. I mean, the bank is not going to be excited probably to have that conversation. The restaurant — exactly. But to have a completed project, a stabilized building, with a known operator, that conversation changes really quickly. So that's something that we're doing right now. And we're also converting the old Super 8 Hotel in downtown Dartmouth — we're just finishing that 80-unit project. So we've got a lot of projects

43:54stacked up around the city that Sidewalk RED is doing. And then the RBC Building in downtown Dartmouth on Portland — that's going to be part conversion to residential, part Class A upgrade of office. Yeah. You've really had your hand in the progress of downtown Dartmouth, and Dartmouth in general. I mean, Dartmouth — I think everybody realizes it's really evolved. Like, Bedford is too, so is downtown Halifax. But the views from the Dartmouth side

44:25are amazing downtown. It's true, true what they say — in Halifax. Yeah, yeah. It is the bright side. Exactly. Yeah. No, it's been — that's something that you hold near to your chest, I'm assuming. Like, that's something you're very proud of. It's all all the — yeah, yeah. You could say part of it's luck, part of it's timing, but a good part of it is vision. And you have to work hard to get lucky.

44:55Well, yeah. And putting all that together was not easy. You've got to — it's a grind. But if you're persistent you'll persevere and find a way. And I think that's, you know, I always find an opportunity first and then figure out how to get it done later. And that's worked for me, especially with the real estate side of things. Yeah, yeah. Evan, just going back to the labor shortage — I'm just curious, like, someone in your position in

45:25commercial construction management, leading up that division for Bruno — are you finding, as far as the trades on new projects as they start, that — not that any trades are, you know, we don't have enough good people, I mean that's not what I'm getting at — I just mean, is there a sense of urgency on their end, or hesitation, like, you know, we're so busy and we're finding it hard to find guys? Are you having those

45:48conversations with a lot of the different trades around the labor shortage? It kind of seems to be getting better. There was a lot of tough conversation over the last couple of years of, you know, like, why are you guys behind? Well, we don't have manpower. Yeah. It seems like — I kind of mentioned earlier — that those companies have since realized they can't take on as much work because they don't have the manpower and have figured out how to balance their

46:16workload. So luckily haven't had those conversations as of late. And yeah, things seem to be rolling pretty good right now. So let's hopefully, you know, rolling into the vacation months — we'll see what the summer brings. But getting our first taste of spring here in Nova Scotia this week, for sure. Yeah, yeah. But that's good for progress. I mean, everyone looks much better to work outside this time of year. Yeah, everyone gets a hop in their step — you can see it, you can feel it. Yeah, the

46:45energy is vibrant. Yeah. We should talk a little bit about technology. Obviously one of our partners here at ACP Media and the Atlantic Construction Podcast is Procore Technologies — cloud-based, global leader in construction project management software. And I know that Bruno has adopted their software in recent years. When did you first adopt Procore to work into your operations, and what made you choose that as far as, you know, perhaps another option in the same vertical? Yeah. So we had signed the

47:24contract — official, we are official Procore adopters — July '21. There'll be two years in July. And was that — go ahead. The reason, well, was that because you kind of reached a threshold where, hey, we need to have — is there other reasons too? Well, as everyone knows, reporting is everything in this space. And yes, of course, document control and communication between the field and the office. And as I mentioned, running approximately 12 jobs at a time —

48:00information needs to be readily available, quickly and consistently. And there's a lot of feedback communication streams and feedback loops required to find success. It'll cost you time and money otherwise, right? And managing things offline is simply inefficient. So for us it was about better information faster for everyone, and we were definitely sold by what Procore was offering and could do and the power of it. And so we pulled the trigger and we dove in.

48:43We did explore a couple of other platforms, and yeah, Procore sold us. Yeah, yeah. It's a powerful platform. There's a lot of features and modules, and I feel like every company that's using it is maybe using it in a different way or using it for one or two of those modules as opposed to all the offerings. Yeah. The reality is, it'd be great if there was one platform for everything, but you need to have a complete tech stack, I think, as

49:18a performing — yeah, to pull off a project, customized. Yeah, you mentioned BlueBeam, you know, like, how do we estimate? There's three or four different components to how we estimate. How do we — but from a project management, from a document control standpoint, absolutely. Do all the guys on the field have iPads? And you know, it's just information fast now. From a finance standpoint and a synchronization standpoint, I've met

49:53very few that have fully utilized the system and been able to truly synchronize the system with their finance department. Most companies are not adopting this platform as a startup and growing with it — most of them are dropping this into an operating corporation with many moving parts and many processes and systems and the way they've done things for a long time. So to tell a finance department we need to plug this into — we need to plug the system into our accounting platform to truly get

50:31the benefit of the integration and the reporting that it offers — that's not easy. So I can appreciate why larger organizations struggle with fully implementing this platform. So we just challenged ourselves and said, well, what if we could — what if we can? Something we would definitely do differently from a year and a half ago is put resources into this implementation like you would any project. I think we underestimated what it would take to truly — it's quite an undertaking, isn't it? During COVID, right? To — we started paying

51:07for it, but unfortunately we couldn't prioritize it the way it needed to be prioritized and resource it the way it needed to be resourced as far as implementing, deploying it. And so if you're going to adopt Procore, you need to be ready for it. That's good for our listeners to hear. I believe so. And when you're paying for these modules, you want to be utilizing them, you want them to be functioning, you want to be benefiting from what

51:35they can offer. So, thanks to our incredible finance team — they've, and I'm talking hours of support — because you can imagine how many different accounting platforms there are. And yours is the integration online. You know, you look at any product that's out there and it just shows two arrows like this and says, hey, they connect, they integrate, they synchronize. Yeah, not that easily. So we are only two months into synchronizing, and that has now taken us down another path of like, what's possible. We have

52:07incredible reporting across the organization now with Procore. So now it's about how do we create more — even more — automation, take away a lot of the manual reporting, and truly gain all the benefits that these modules offer. Right. So the basics. So yeah, back to your point — you know, I've talked to a lot of other GCs in the industry from here into New Brunswick, and there's a different story every

52:43time: "We have it deployed in one region, not the other." "We have it in this type of project value under X or above X, and not in these others." "We're only using these modules, we don't use it for this, we use it for that." We can't even think about... I actually reached out to a large construction WhatsApp chat group that I'm in across North America, and we use a Sage 100 accounting platform. And out of, I don't know, almost 200

53:15construction companies, there was no one that had synchronized these two platforms. Yet there were only a couple — there was only a few that were synchronizing at all. So I would love to meet the Procore guests and representatives to chat technically — chat about, right, about specifically. Yeah. So we enjoy it, the field enjoys it, the office enjoys it — we're really using it in every way we can right now. What would you say the percentage of use of

53:50the modules that we're using — what would it be? If we're bringing sub-trades into that conversation, we're probably 99.5% buy-in from the sub-trades. Yeah, yeah. I mean, there are a few stragglers out there that still aren't ready for school, and they're signing documents — you're submitting change orders on Procore. Any kind of documentation — everything's living in Procore. So it helps eliminate, you know, that excuse of, "Well,

54:22I didn't have that drawing" or "I didn't have that change order." Well, it's all here. Accountability. Yeah, yeah. And it has helped. As long as that information is being entered on our end and everyone else's end, it's been great. Pretty crucial key to your position then, obviously — to have under that umbrella, finger on the pulse at all times. Finger on the pulse at all times. That's, like, you were saying too, you have the subcontractors

54:50in that regard. But then, Elliot, I think we were talking earlier about whether or not the stakeholders — every stakeholder in that specific project — is Procore proficient or even knows about it or is using something else. That could be consultants, owners — that's an issue too, right? Absolutely. Landlords. Because true success from implementing that in a project would be having everyone's buy-in, especially if there are decision makers along the way within those stakeholders. Yeah. But I think you know, COVID again pushed a lot of

55:24things to advance a lot of companies in their technical abilities. And I think as time goes on here and Procore becomes the industry standard — I believe yeah, yeah — people are going to be forced into using it if they're not already. So it's important for Procore, not just Bruno but the industry, to make sure that we do have conversations like this with feedback: where can the improvements be made, where are some of the gaps, what are you

55:58experiencing in the size company that you are? And yeah, it's just great stuff. Yeah. And so we implement Procore within Bruno Builders as well as BLACK + BRU on the CM side, so both companies. Yeah. Are you aware — you might not be, maybe something quite new — I don't want to say when they implemented this, but Procore has estimating? Yeah, it came out recently. I saw that. Whether or not you consider that — but it's, you know, it's

56:27something else that could be tied in and integrated, especially if you're thinking about adopting more tech on the estimating side, which, you know, not that that's necessary either. I thought that was kind of a neat added piece — it wasn't always there. May not have been there when you engaged them at first. It was very recent, I think. If I remember correctly, in the last month or two. But I mean, yeah, if you tied that into the tendering piece, that

56:55might be a good feature. But haven't really dabbled in it yet to comment on it. It's smart — the more versed you get in a product, specifically Procore, the more you want from it, the more add-ons you want. Right, right. I'm sure they've been asked to do estimating for years and years now. So that is a natural next step for them. It'd be really interesting to see how we can work that into our organization.

57:26Yeah. What was the other feature that you just reminded me of? Yeah, I think you maybe mentioned something else earlier too. It's on the tip of my tongue but I can't — either estimating, we talked about the finance sync, you know obviously the project management, estimating... Yeah, I lost it. Damn it. I need a cold plunge to get it back. Let's go do a quick one. Yeah, yeah. Go to Queen's Marque. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, that went viral, didn't it? Right, right. Yeah. But I guess, you know, to speak to

58:01Procore a little bit more — we have outfitted our site supers on site with tablets, trying to eliminate printing off those drawings on site. And that's home base for everything. So as long as they have that tablet on site and it's updated, you're taking away a lot of phone calls of site supers and everyone looking for that information because it's all there. So a lot of buy-in from our site supers as well.

58:26Just thinking too — this might sound funny, it's comical, but just saving on getting the drawings printed off that many times — depending on how big a company you are, that can add up. Every day, plus courier, gas. Yeah, courier, gas, printing. Yeah, can certainly add up. Time — it's time. Yeah, time is money in this industry. And really, I guess that's what Procore's in the business of doing — saving people time. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Anything else, gentlemen, that maybe we

58:57haven't discussed, or that was kind of on your mind to sort of push out there to our audience or make people aware of? Or — I mean, sometimes you don't remember until you're on your way home. We did touch on a lot of stuff. I think Evan mentioned our sub-trade partners, and I think a big shout-out to all of them. Yeah, literally without them the projects don't happen. And we need each other, more than ever, to

59:27get through the amount of activity that's happening out there. Also to our incredible leadership team within the organization, and everyone who leads the different entities — it's hard to shout out names because you don't want to leave anyone out. Go ahead if you feel like it. But there's a good energy right now around the office for sure. A lot of good culture is what you feel. And yeah, it feels good. What about — as far as

59:56internal crews — like would you have some carpenters on staff, some younger folks that are kind of going through their apprenticeship journey or anything like that right now? We do, yeah, we do. Correct me if I'm wrong — we have eight, seven or eight. Oh, okay. Well, pretty significant crew then. So yeah. Are they doing a lot of the framing on your builds? Like are they more devoted to the residential side? You know, on the commercial side they get

60:27pulled in every which direction for small items that just kind of fall through the cracks. But you can really carve out scopes of work in residential for that internal crew. Yeah, exactly. Oh, that's great. You need some key people that are versatile in-house and can jump around. But yeah, they're very well-rounded, experienced individuals that can jump from framing to hanging doors to trimming interiors to cladding — whatever might come up. Yeah, yeah. What else?

61:01So yeah, currently we're in three separate office buildings right in downtown Dartmouth, all neighboring each other. But we worked with Design 360 this year to create a new office space within the RBC Building that is almost 8,000 square feet, that will bring us all together under one roof, which is important. We're talking about information and cross-training and development and coaching — to have us all in one place. Yeah. So this is a humongous investment for us. And, you know,

61:35another example of investing in our people and in the organization. And really bringing our one purpose that blankets across the whole group, which is "boldly building a better city." And we truly believe that. I mean, some of the real estate projects we take on, the owners we get to work with at Bruno Builders — if we didn't work on downtown Dartmouth when we did, if we didn't buy this office tower and convert it, if we didn't work with MDW Law and the

62:10city to help change the zoning, they would never have existed on that corner. So we really believe we're — we're excited to be able to get behind that and contribute to a better city in Halifax. Yeah. I feel like too that that move is going to — like, a lot of companies, you know, sometimes you don't see a lot of people that work on the same team. You might see them online or on a screen, but the whole crew doesn't maybe get together all that

62:34often throughout the year. But then all of a sudden you have your whole team in one place — kind of like the big picture is going to be right in front of everybody. So that'll be a great change. Yeah, looking forward to it. We put a lot of time into spending together outside of work, yeah, during work — could be coffee chats, could be happy hours or something. Construction here, yeah, yeah. Us and 1,700 others. Yeah. And that's important. We

63:12yeah, we really care, too. I mean, those are — you know, planned events — but there's a lot of unplanned events too where it's not forcing it. Friends, exactly. Going to lacrosse and stuff like that — it's not like the company's paying for all that. It's just on our own, and we enjoy each other outside of work. It's a good sign to see co-workers just hanging out, not formally — just

63:40because they're friends. Well, if you go back to hiring on core values, you will get very similar people aligned together. Core — because it doesn't change. It's core to who they are, core to what your company is. That's right, that's right. It's very interesting, though, yeah. And our core values — some might hear that and think, well, core values, like, all these terms, right? But just how important that is. Think it's fluff. I know, that's why I'm saying that — not because I think that. Think of it as

64:08a mission statement, you know. But at the end of the day, you're talking about the psychological temperament and attitude of human beings here. This is the core of who they are. And if we can — if we're good at defining that as an organization — by the way, they'd be... "Be open, be better, be kind, be bold" within our company. Those are your four core values? Those are our core values. Yeah. Can

64:34you say them one more time? Sure, sure. "Be open" — yeah, as in open to learn, open to new ideas. You need to listen. You need to be okay with understanding there's a different way or a better way. Change, yeah. Absolutely. "Be better" — you've got to do your best all the time, you really should try to exceed and surprise whenever possible. And "be kind" is almost straightforward, but that is how we do

65:21things — that is being good humans to one another and to everyone we work with. "Be bold" is simply the innovation piece — it's thinking differently, it's taking on things others wouldn't, it's a confidence. And were you going to chime in there? Yeah, you got it. Yeah. So, saying it pretty well. But when I say — when I say it comes down to the core values — this is how we hire. There's a process we go through to

65:55identify the alignment early. Yeah. Then it's about can you do the job, or what do you need to actually — right, once they get past that first checkpoint. Absolutely. Yeah. And so, to Evan's point, this exists in other organizations, but I don't know how many organizations would have it without understanding who they are and how they hire and how they exit as well. It's easy to understand then when something's not working and somebody is not being open — oh, how the employee exits.

66:28Right. Well, how do you coach that person if they don't understand how to be open? There's a time where it's not a fit. And yeah, exactly. Anyway, that's what brings us together and allows us to find more like-minded individuals that are good for the team. Yeah, yeah. No, thanks for sharing that. It's interesting, very important stuff when you're trying to build a business of any kind, right? It's people. Absolutely.

66:55People are complex, it's the foundation. Yeah, yeah. Well, I just want to thank both of you, Evan and Elliot — it's been a treat for our team here to have a chance to chat with you guys about all kinds of different stuff. Your personal stories, the success of Bruno Builders and BLACK + BRU and Sidewalk RED, and talk a little bit about technology and Procore and some of the great stuff and projects that you've worked on and are

67:21working on. So it's — thank you for your time. Thanks. Should we do a couple shout-outs? Yeah. And really appreciate you inviting us — I know we were trying to line this up for a while. Always like that. Again, congratulations on what you guys are doing. It takes a lot of effort and commitment and I can appreciate that. We should be shouting out at Bruno Builders. You should do some shout-outs. Yeah, I guess, you know, my project management team — kind of shouted out

67:48earlier, but thanks for killing it, guys, making my life a little easier. So — Logan, Dylan, Lucas. Yeah, Logan's working on the Timberly Hotel, right? Exactly, yeah. Beth, one of our other fearless leaders. Yeah, she's great. Yeah, yeah. Rebecca, running the office. We've got an incredible finance team led by Kelsey. Our people department's led by Melissa. Yeah. BLACK + BRU led by Justin and Matt. Yeah. And Joe at Sidewalk RED. These are incredibly talented people with unbelievable teams supporting them, and

68:26somebody new in marketing — is it Amanda or something? I hear yeah. We have one and a half — kind of hybrid and blended. Yeah. So we've actually taken all of our marketing in-house. That was a big step in the last couple of years in building this back office that's shared amongst the companies. As we were talking about, our finance team supports all of the companies and marketing. The brand and marketing has been very important to us obviously over time, and so we have a big commitment and

68:54investment made there. And it's working out really well. It's a joy to go to work every day, really. Awesome. Yeah, good for you guys. Amazing. Thank you. Thanks again. We — someone said, you know, something about a stage super. Yeah, start — want to finish off with, want to finish off with a story, the time in the air — inside joke for anybody listening. Yeah, yeah. Thanks a lot, guys, been a treat. Thank you. Absolutely. See you tonight. See you tonight. Yes. Absolutely. Be good. Cheers. This episode is brought to you by Cook

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