From Bankruptcy to $10M: How This NB-Born CEO Built Canada's Top Construction Staffing Firm

0:00This episode is brought to you by our presenting sponsor Pizzant Building Products. Pizzant Building Products has been providing contractors and builders with the supplies necessary to complete their jobs since 1964. They have built a reputation of honest, helpful, and quality service, serving the HRM for the last 58 years. Now with seven locations in Nova Scotia and one in New Brunswick, our team at the Atlantic Construction Podcast is extremely excited to announce our new co-branded partner Procore. Procore is the global leader in construction management software. We'll be conducting

0:29several podcast episodes with Procore users and construction companies across the country in 2023, among many other things. Stay tuned — we're excited. Okay, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Excited to have our guests with us today. Made the trip from Calgary but grew up in New Brunswick — CEO Shannon Warren and founder of Matrix Labour Leasing. Thanks for being with us today, Shannon. Appreciate you. I appreciate you — appreciate being here. Thank you for having me. Appreciate it. How was — how were your travels? Travels were good. I took

1:07the red-eye. I took it out Saturday night and the flight was uneventful. I was able to sleep a few hours — that's always nice. And got into Moncton about 11 o'clock yesterday morning and drove to my cottage in New Brunswick. It was — is that in Rexton? Or Rexton? Yeah, 45 minutes from the airport. Sorry, is it Braxton? Rexton. Rexton. Yes. Yeah. So you grew up in New Brunswick. Sometimes — usually we like to start with a little backstory of our guests before diving into some more

1:36information on your company and everything that's going on. So I think it's interesting that, you know, you grew up in New Brunswick, east coast, and you have a background building homes and you were out in Vancouver after that, and it kind of led your way to what you're doing now. And that's obviously valued experience for your business relationships — that you come from that background. So we've had lots of guests that have kind of similar stories in their entrepreneurial journey.

2:00So maybe you can give us the Coles Notes — give us a little two-three minute version of your journey. Yeah, I know. Growing up in New Brunswick, a lot of fond memories here. All my family are still living here. So growing up, my uncles — right, my grandfather actually worked in the woods and started his own construction company, and my two uncles Gary and Claude took it over — CNG Construction. So growing up watching them operating

2:27the business — and they're also, like, framing houses, bought a big chunk of land, framed houses, yeah — and they opened up their CAT dealership as well. So it's kind of watching their journey and learning a lot from them, very intrigued. I just lived across the street from where they had all their equipment and their shop. I feel like that's such a common tale. I mean, not just on the east coast — I think construction, blue collar trades and business people in construction,

2:57you know, just having the generational — one generation to the next — and it seems to be passed down, whether it's the business itself or just the work ethic or whatever. Thoughts on that? Yeah, for sure. I mean, you're around it on a daily basis and really intrigued by it. You always want to go in the big truck with your uncles to go for a drive and watching them do their thing. Very interesting. And then so I

3:20think watching that over time, and then when I got older — where the Arctic CAT dealership that they had at the time, they closed it and sold it and that space was empty. So they asked — they wanted to start a business. So I did the marketing plan with the government back then and I got a loan — I think it was ten thousand dollars — I got approved, and I started my own car wash. How old were you at this time? I would have been probably

3:44around 20 years old. And prior to that though — it's funny, I don't want to skip over that — my aunt, when we were kids, me and my cousin Leon, we would get a little wagon and she'd go into Moncton. I don't think there was a Costco back then, obviously it was something else. But she would get all the pops and passion cakes and stuff, and they were building the curling club in my community at the time, and then

4:06also my uncles were building the houses at that time. So we would go and wheel up and sell the passion cakes and the pops to the construction workers on both sites. So that's kind of how we got started early — thanks to my Aunt Shirley. And then also we would sell blueberries — we picked blueberries in the field and then sold them at the corner there, right. So I remember doing that as well. That was one of the

4:29first entrepreneurial endeavors — just for myself to start off pretty small. But it's all those little incremental things that you learn. For sure. And you watch when you're growing up. Yeah. And I think for me — a lot of people when they're young they dream of being like a firefighter or an astronaut or a lot of these big things. And for me, honestly, when I was looking around I was looking at all the entrepreneurs in my small town, yeah, and I really wanted to be like them

4:53because they felt like they were always moving and shaking and doing things and just living a fun life — making things happen. Making things happen, yeah. So for me that was what I wanted to do. Yeah, it's very cool. So then you made your way — I think is it Vancouver? — when did you start kind of getting into building homes out there? Yeah, so I did the car wash thing for a couple of years. Didn't work out — obviously a very small town, yeah. It's just hard to make money. So, and

5:19back then — and then you probably know this too — I'm turning 50 this year, so around that age, around 20, there wasn't a lot of opportunity in my community. It wasn't like it is right now. I mean, as we can see after COVID especially, there's so much opportunity for young people right now. There's every employer in town hiring. Yeah. And a lot of people on the east coast can relate to, you know, even from this generation or past generations, what it's like to be in

5:41a small town. You know, the desire to get out — I mean, everybody that's young I think has that anyway — but there's not as much opportunity and a lot of people will gravitate toward Halifax. They want to stay on the east coast kind of where things are happening more, or they'll go further. That's right. And so it's no different. Yeah. And then I'm going to allude to that too. My village — I think I have 700 people in population and it hasn't grown. It's probably in fact probably depleted

6:05again. A lot of young people leaving — not saying going west but just to bigger cities like Halifax and Fredericton and Moncton for that part. But yeah, I feel for me like there wasn't a lot of opportunity. And I didn't speak French so I wasn't able to get any government jobs back then either. So there was an opportunity where I had a few buddies that were framing houses out of Surrey, BC. Never been out of my hometown

6:31really. So I was young and I asked my dad, talked to him about it, and he thought it'd be a good idea. So he bought me a one-way ticket to Vancouver. And I'll never forget that trip. I mean, flying out — he dropped me off at the airport and I could just tell, like, he didn't say too much but you could tell I wasn't coming back for a while. Yeah. So it was one of those. It's a long way too — I mean you're on the other end of the

6:52country, there it is. Yeah, big time. So, you know, I had like twenty thousand dollars in debt and you just need to go do something on your own. Yeah, right. Get away from mom and dad and try to do it on your own. Yeah, I can totally relate to that. And yeah, I mean, like many of us — especially in the trades — a lot of people do end up getting away from home for certain

7:16reasons, maybe healthy reasons, and there's been all kinds of work on the west coast. It's just a very common thing for guys to head out there, you know, 19 to 25 in that age, and frame homes or work in drywall, plumbing, any of the trades. So he spent a few years doing that and then kind of — yeah, I spent two years in the Vancouver area. So initially I started framing houses, learning from scratch. I didn't have much

7:42of a framing or construction background other than, you know, working with my uncles and stuff like that around New Brunswick. So, you know, started off small — eight bucks an hour, my first job — working for a very small framer. And kind of learned from him, and then that pivoted into concrete. So did a lot of concrete formwork in the Lower Mainland. And so I did that for — like I said I think it was a full two

8:08and a half year stint. And then my employer at the time — I had a job in Calgary building a parkade. So he asked me if I'd be interested and I said yeah, sure, I wouldn't mind checking it out. So when I went out to Calgary for six months — seeing I was going bankrupt — I ended up staying. And then another employer that I used to work with, called Willow Bay Developments out of Vancouver, they landed a huge job at a university in Calgary. Oh yes. And

8:32they were looking for some local carpenters as opposed to bringing them all in and paying all their travel and looking for lodging, to save some costs. So I ended up finding a few people, a few carpenters that I worked with in Calgary. And so my first meeting with Steve Lichtenzen — he was the owner of the company — and we're still really good friends today. This is going back over 20 years ago. So you mentioned eight dollars an hour when you first started. I was thinking, like, that was minimum wage

8:57at the time? Yeah, yeah. Well, actually, I don't even know — I've probably been making a little more than minimum wage back then. Yeah, yeah, probably. At that point. So anyway, he had a meeting with me and he said, would you be interested? The carpenters that you found — would you want to invoice us for them under your company? Because I was working as a self-employed contractor. And so I called my dad again and I

9:27didn't have a lot of money at the time and he didn't have a lot of money either, but he thought it'd be a really good opportunity. So he actually flew out to Calgary and he put $8,000 on his credit card — my first payroll. So, you know, it's pretty remarkable when you think about that. Because this is going back 23 years ago. So I've owned Matrix for 20 — we just celebrated our 20th anniversary in December — and prior to that I had Warren's

9:51Contracting and I ran that for three years and unfortunately in the third year I ended up going bankrupt. So a lot of lessons learned on that journey. Wow. Yeah, but lessons — as hard as I'm sure they were — and you mentioned your father came out and gave you a hand. Like, yeah, he probably knew you had the opportunity and it was time to capitalize on it. Amazing that he did that for you. Yeah,

10:13honestly. I mean, I can relate — I have, you know, my dad's been so supportive. And you need that as an entrepreneur — not just the money but somebody who you look up to, who believes in you. Yeah, that — I was going to just allude to that. So I mean, when I was driving out here this morning, thinking back — you're by yourself in the vehicle, driving three hours from my cottage in New Brunswick to Halifax this morning. And just thinking about the whole journey, like

10:39because, you know, coming in to do the podcast and doing a lot of mental reflecting. Exactly. And just a lot of gratitude. Exactly, to your point. With my father and, you know, growing up in New Brunswick — having your parents intact and having my whole family there — we all live pretty close, very supportive. Your community is very supportive as well and you're growing up in a small town. Yes. So for that I'm very grateful because

11:04it wasn't just the eight thousand dollars — it was more so that even when, probably when he gave me the money, I don't think maybe I could do it. Yeah. But he gave me that confidence. So that really perpetuated the rest of my life because, you know, without him doing that I wouldn't have been able to get here where I'm at today. It's even emotional for you, thinking back about it a little bit, isn't it? I can tell. Yeah, I know, it's

11:23crazy because, you know, a lot of people don't have that — maybe that same upbringing or that same opportunity, like where you have two loving parents who love your family and are really trying to instill that in you. So with myself having a daughter right now — she's turning four — so, you know, when you have kids you only want the best for them. Yeah. So with my parents they didn't have a lot but they gave me everything I needed. And then having that

11:47confidence — their confidence — and then also giving me that eight thousand dollars, it's pretty crazy. Yeah, yeah. I like how you said, you know, the money was one thing and it's necessary — you're in business, I mean, it's there, it's not going away, it's a necessary thing. But yeah, just that affirmation, whether it's from your dad or someone older in your life — usually an older male if you're male — it's

12:10kind of a masculinity thing. But just that they believe in you when you don't believe in yourself. Because a lot of times when you're an entrepreneur you're stepping out into something that's unknown. You've got to have courage. And I'm sure you can look back 20 years later — look how far you've come, which is amazing. But at the time you don't know you can do it, you know. I mean, you can say fake it till you make it all you want — there are all kinds of

12:31slogans around it — but having someone believe in you, there's no amount of money that can replace that. No, for sure. And when you think back too, you know, I didn't have — like I told you earlier — I didn't have the schooling. I didn't go to school. I just graduated high school. I went — you know, two years — I did an appliance repair technician program. I went to St. Stephen College. Yeah, and so that's

12:55all I had for education. So I didn't have any proper schooling for business. And obviously, you know, a lot of lessons learned. And so, yeah, I mean, having their support was instrumental to my growth and life and my success. Obviously hard for you to leave that support system too at such a young age and start your own business, you know, at the other end of the country. That journey during that time too. And I think it's good for our listeners,

13:19you know, on the blue collar side — if you're in the trades and a lot of people in the trades are thinking about starting their own business. Some people belong working in skilled labour and other people want to move from the site to an office or start a business, and they have that drive. But I think a lot of people are held back just from the status, maybe, of education — maybe "I don't have enough white collar training" — or, you know,

13:44you mentioned, like, you hadn't gone to university. But look at what you were able to do. You know, that's inspirational for guys that — because I think that's one of the things you see maybe in construction more than others: there's an enmeshment of, like, very knowledgeable engineers, architects, accountants, all kinds of PMs on the white collar side, and then blue collar — all kinds of skilled people that are doing an amazing job

14:09with their hands. And, you know, it's a work of art what they're good at — they've been brought up doing it. But they don't have maybe the ability to articulate themselves, they haven't taken business courses, they don't know the terminology and the language around business and it can be intimidating. Although if you can kind of break through that stronghold, some of these people can be the best. And I think you're proof of that. So I think that's interesting that you brought that up, and some

14:31of our listeners are probably thinking the same thing. There's kind of a fear around that. Yeah. The risk appetite too, right? Yeah, it's like a lot of people don't want to put that risk out there — it's putting a lot on the line. Yeah. I know with me — with the first bankruptcy — it really affected me personally. You know, going back to being a male provider. Big dignity factor there too. Yeah, big time. And you didn't have a wife and kids

14:53at the time? No. But still, it's just the stigma behind it, right? Absolutely. So going through that was really difficult. Luckily for me, though, I was able to pivot pretty quickly. So going back to my father — I had to give him a call again. I was like, Dad, you know, going through a rough time. And when you're going through bankruptcy you can't open up a secondary company, obviously, anywhere in Canada. So he can. So I gave him a call

15:17and asked him if he could open up a company. Obviously I wanted to continue on what I was doing. So what happened was — in my first tenure of the three years of my first company, Warren's Contracting — the first couple of years I grew pretty big. And, you know, pretty young then, 27 years old, thinking you knew it all, and we wanted to get into our own contract work. So the problem with that is I didn't have enough bankroll, didn't have an

15:38experienced team, didn't have the right employees. So I took on a big job at the hospital in Vancouver — there was a lot of architectural formwork — with Stuart Olsen. And again, just didn't have the proper knowledge, so we ended up going backwards on that one. So what I was able to do is make sure that all the employees were paid — and also my local suppliers were paid — so therefore keep my name intact. The majority of the money that was owed was either credit cards or to the CRA.

16:07So I was able to get through that. And then I had my dad open up Matrix Labour Leasing at the time, 20 years ago, and I was able to get that going and continue on. And that's what I've done since then — in the last 20 years I have not pivoted. I just stuck with what I know and that's strictly the staffing component. Wow. And we also do the permanent placement like we talked about, and now on the back-end payrolling as well. So we kind of stick to those

16:32fundamentals and not veer off that, because you want to stick with what you know and not what you don't know. So it sounds like, you know, even though that was a tough three-year period, you were able to navigate it, you were able to ride that out, you were able to keep your relationships intact, your reputation, pay the workers. And then also the lessons you learned from such an intense period probably led to remaining focused for 20 years. What was it that

16:58when you made the pivot to labour leasing — was it just, you know, kind of connecting the dots and saying okay, well I know enough about this, or is there something specific? Yeah, I did it for the first two years of Warren's and it worked out well. And then in the third year I broke off and started doing my own contract work. So yeah, when I formed Matrix Labour Leasing, I just wanted to make sure I stuck with what I knew

17:20and obviously didn't want to fail again. After you've experienced that failure it sticks with you for a very long time. And I can still feel it today, like going through that process. I think — I know a lot of entrepreneurs talk about it and they said it kind of felt good listening to that, because a lot of times they want to work with people that actually went through that pain. Yeah. And I always felt like a stigma and it was against me, thinking you're going to

17:42feel people are going to hold it against me. But I think a lot of people that have been in business a long time understand it and they get it. And they want to work with people that experienced that pain, that are going to maybe not take those major risks. Good points, yeah. So that's a very good point. I mean, you know, once you've been there and you've felt it, it's kind of like one of those things — if you're getting

18:01close to that again, it's not going to get that far, because you know — it's kind of in your bones at that point. Yeah. So for our listeners, you know, labour leasing, payroll staffing or payroll funding, and the services that you provide with Matrix — I'm sure there are lots of people listening from big and small companies. Maybe we can start with a little kind of 101 about labour leasing. I've dealt with companies before as a contractor

18:27where if it's a permanent position they're taking a portion of their salary up front, and then there are temp positions. Can you kind of give us a little bit of an overview of Matrix? Yeah, definitely. So what we do is we're a full service staffing agency. We have been for 20 years. So what we do is we're able to offer the hourly positions, the roles, or we can do hourly-to-perm where we give that end client an option — if they

18:53like that individual, they fit the culture, they work well within their team, they have that option to — we call it kind of a recruitment fee — so they can hire that person on full time and put them on their payroll. And then the third factor is the permanent placement. So we can do that perm fee — basically what you just said — it's based on their yearly salary. So we do that as well, and we do that a lot more on the professional side. Yeah.

19:17So you're dealing with companies a lot of times on a project basis. If a large company — I think we mentioned Pomerleau there before; we were chatting in the studio before we came on air — and you're working with them on a project that's been ongoing for a couple of years now. Yeah, we've been really fortunate. They're a really good client of ours and I can't say enough about them — very professional, very easy to work with. And they got a huge job in Victoria at the

19:44naval base and we've been on site with them for over two years currently, and we should hopefully be there for another five. They're doing the A, B, and C Jetty — they're taking them out and putting them back in again. So we've been really fortunate there. And we've provided them with the crew — it's kind of fluctuating, I think between 20 and 30, maybe 40 at its peak. And we've been working with them consistently since that project started. And yeah, so it's been a really good

20:09run with them. So back to your point, like, we really try to satisfy — we don't go in and try to take over the company. We're only there to help with, you know, basically them and their team. So we want to be kind of an extension of their HR. We come in and find out where the gaps are and how we can fill those gaps. We want to be very professional, prompt, give them the proper labour they need so they

20:31stay on time and on budget. And I believe that our fees are very competitive — I mean, they would have to be for us in order to be in business for 20 years. So we want to make sure that, for us right now, and it has been from day one, we want to make sure that we're offering really good service to our customers. We want to make sure we're picking up the phone, we're answering those emails. If there are any issues with any of our employees on site,

20:51we want to make sure we address those immediately. So yeah, we're basically an extension of their HR. We don't go in there and change anything, we're not taking over their HR department — we're just there to help support. And to kind of further use that specific project you mentioned as an extension of their HR — and for our listeners just as a kind of scenario to give some context and perspective. So, you know, you would be — once Pomerleau is kind of tendering,

21:17reaching out to you to make contact, say hey, we want you guys to give us some pricing on staffing this project — we need 40 positions. There could be maybe five or maybe two site supers, maybe there are some project management roles, there's everything down from a labourer to a foreman to all kinds of different trades positions. And then you're going to your pool, finding the people, staffing it. These are temp positions because it's a two-year project or something — it's not a

21:42full-time permanent hire. That's right. And so that is correct? Yeah. Yeah, like we were talking earlier — a lot of times employees will work for us full time because we're able to balance them around client to client. And they're actually on your payroll. Yeah. So end of the day, they could be working for the end client for maybe four or five months and then we're able to transfer them over to a different job. So a lot of times when clients are calling us, we're not

22:03necessarily doing street hires — and that's maybe some of the misconceptions of staffing. Yeah. With us, we've been trade staffing since day one, since inception, 20 years ago. So we do all trades: we do labourers, pipeline workers, industrial, civil, commercial construction, and then we also do heavy equipment operators, and then we also do professional — all professionals — and then we do IT and admin. So these are all the elements, the verticals that we work

22:34in. And then based on that — after 20 years of business — we have our own internal database of 40,000 that we've built up over the years. And then we also have on our social media platforms 60,000. So we have a pretty good reach. And then also we have a pretty big budget that we spend on LinkedIn and on Indeed to get the right people — as soon as a client calls with any opportunities we'll get the ads running right away. Okay, and

23:00start generating interest. And you say 60,000 — you mean 60,000 like leads for employment? Employees that fit a certain title? 60,000 members. So say for example Facebook page, LinkedIn page — okay, so all the pages that we have, it's 60,000 members that follow us. Yeah, yeah. And so, yeah, I mean, that's one example with a company like Pomerleau, but it's not to say that you're not helping companies of all different sizes, whether it's just one position they need or maybe a couple

23:26within the organization, or it's a project staffing of 20 to 100 employees. It's all across the board. We want to help everybody that has a need in their HR departments. So we want to make sure that we're giving the same level of service whether you could be a six billion dollar company or maybe a 50 million dollar company — doesn't matter. For us, end of the day, we want to make sure we're offering good service to our clients. But furthermore, we want to make

23:50sure we're offering really good service to the employee. Because when I worked in the trades — going back to that, and how and why they formed the company to begin with — when I worked in the industry I was never paid overtime, I was never offered benefits. This is going back 20 years ago, right. So construction has a, you know, a dirty name for sure. Yeah. And just to say we've made some good progress since that time. I think so. But we're still — we're still

24:14seeing there's still a lot to go. You're seeing a lot of gaps for sure — lots of people doing lots of things. And we'll get into that. But yeah, so I wasn't offered benefits, overtime, and in fact a couple of times I wasn't paid at all. So for me, when I started Warren's Contracting initially and then going into Matrix, always the same philosophy — I wanted to make sure that I was kind of like their agent, making sure I was looking after the

24:34employees in their best interests. So making sure they're being brought to a safe site, number one. Number two, my premise in my company — we have meetings weekly, I talk to my staff about this, and I'm still working in the office every day — is to make sure everybody's paid on time, every time. We pay all our employees every Friday by EFT. And I know what it's like — even a couple years ago I was having financial difficulties. I know what it is, living paycheck to paycheck, and how

24:58important that is to employees — making sure they're getting their full hours or full payment. So for us, even though we're paying every Friday, the paystub goes out by email on Thursday. So a lot of times if there is an issue we're able to fix it Thursday afternoon and still have their full payment on Friday. So that's really important to us as a company. I mean, that payroll must be — yeah, we had a pretty big payroll last year. That was our biggest year on record

25:22and so, like, how many issues are coming back in on a sample size of a payroll typically? I mean, sometimes there's not any. But yeah, for the most part we're pretty fortunate — we've got a good team in our office and we watch it very closely and it's pretty automated at this point. So very minimal mistakes. But when mistakes are made they do happen for sure — human error — and sometimes it's not even our fault, it's just information coming in that's not accurate. I was just

25:46about to ask that. So how do you kind of eliminate error on that front? Yeah, we use People 2.0 for all our back-end office. They're a four billion dollar company growing very quickly — they're global and they work with only staffing firms like myself. So by using them it was a great partnership. We formed it back in November 2019. And because of that partnership it really helped us grow. When we grow into a new vertical we're able to offer the

26:15back-end payrolling where we weren't able to before. And so it's a great add-on. So just for an example, we have a customer in the US — we had a big job at the LNG project in Kitimat. And so they didn't have any operations here in Canada. We met them at an event. We had a First Nation JV in the region out of Prince Rupert — so we have a formal JV with them since 2019 as well. So we were at an event

26:42with LNG Canada and we met them there — our client out of Denver, Colorado. And they built the biggest cooling tower in Canadian history on that project. So they didn't have an office and we were able to talk to them. It took a while — it took about eight months, we had a lot of meetings back and forth. In the end we ended up getting their confidence and they used our services. So they're a union company, which is fine — we're able to do the back-end office for a

27:07union company. Okay, that was one of the things I wanted to kind of discuss with you. How many union companies do you assist? Would they be one of the only union companies you're helping? So far that was the only one. We're talking to a couple others right now. So on the staffing component we can only work in the open shop environment because we're an open shop company. Yeah. But on the payrolling side we can do either or. Right, right. So

27:30yeah, just paying the burden costs — the employer portion. That's exactly right, yeah. So we're just doing the back-end office. So it really helped them a lot because they didn't have an office here, they didn't know the local rules and regulations and the labour laws. So with us and People 2.0, we're fully compliant. We operate currently right across Canada in every province and every territory. So having that is a real benefit to us, and also to our national clients as well. Yeah, think about the

27:56barriers to a new market that you've eliminated for them. Like, you just mentioned the local construction labour laws and all these things — had they not engaged your team, there are a lot of things that could go wrong and it wouldn't be streamlined. For sure. There's a lot of things that can go wrong. And then every province, as you know, is different too. And you have your WCB which is different in every province. And then you have your employer health

28:19tax for medical as well — there are a few provinces that now charge that employer health tax. So for us, really trying to make sure our clients are compliant and making sure that they're doing things properly. And then also on the payrolling side, we're also able to offer that 30 to 60 to maximum 75 day payment terms, which is really helpful for our clients because a lot of times they're not getting paid within those parameters as well. Yeah, so really it's end of the day about cash flow.

28:46So really trying to benefit them by using that service that we're able to provide on the cash flow side, and also just being compliant. And we're taking on all the risk as well. So we're becoming the employer of record when we're doing that. Yeah. So any issues with WCB, any wrongful dismissals, any claims — we're taking them right off their hands. And then they focus on what they do best. It's a clean relationship. 100%. So it basically offloads that liability onto us and

29:12they're able to focus, like you said, on the project at hand. And then we can mitigate that risk for them. Quick shout-out to the newest sponsor of the show, The Stone Depot. The Stone Depot is located in Bayers Lake, Halifax, and serves all of the east coast. A showroom over 8,000 square feet — perfect for masonry contractors, landscaping contractors, builders, and developers. Regardless, The Stone Depot is a great option for you whether you're doing fire pits, patio stones, kitchen and interior stones. So if you're looking for a great

29:37stone supplier, visit The Stone Depot. This episode is brought to you by Airtight Spaces. Airtight Spaces is Atlantic Canada's first authorized Aerobarrier dealer. They help create comfortable, healthy, and durable living environments with the added benefit of energy efficiency. Air sealing is a critical step towards net-zero buildings — using air pressure to automatically guide sealant guarantees the highest quality results in the least amount of time with the least amount of effort. If air sealing is important to you, you can visit Airtight Spaces at www.airtightspaces.com. How often do you

30:06see this scenario happening on these larger scale projects? This is — it's not very common that they wouldn't be engaged with at least someone, right? And then what's the competition like for you? You've carved out a niche in construction, but you're not just oil and gas and industrial commercial — you've got some other things there too that you're vertical in. What's the competition like in Calgary, in the western provinces where you're doing a lot of stuff? Yeah,

30:30going back to my point — I know in particular when we were going through that whole COVID thing, and definitely the downturn in Alberta in 2014 when the oil crashed. I think it hit like $26 a barrel and a lot of that work we were going after evaporated, especially in the industrial sector with oil and gas. So, during that time it was a really hard fight because we're operating in a space where there's competition out there,

30:55but we're more in a niche market for sure. So we differentiate ourselves a little bit differently from a lot of the other staffing firms. But what I've seen — and what was really hard for me to see at that time when you're going through a difficult time — is a lot of companies weren't paying their people overtime. A lot of companies — I shouldn't say a lot of them, but some of them weren't — had their employees or

31:18payments of contractors that were probably not 100% accurate to CRA rules. Right, so maybe not even ethical. No, exactly right. And it's hard to watch. For us we just had to continue on the program. We just had to make sure we're doing things right and doing things honestly, and making sure that we're paying our people properly. So we lost our competitive edge for sure on some of

31:42these projects. And it's just really unfortunate for me when you're watching these billion dollar companies using a staffing firm and not operating by the law — by the law of Canada or the province that they're working in — and not paying their employees overtime, and not billing the end user for overtime. So they can't turn a blind eye to that. For me it was really difficult to go through that and watch that. But I guess end of the day

32:09everybody makes their decision on who they want to work with. Yeah. But for us we want to make sure — and especially now with us working with People 2.0 — there's no way we can cut a corner at all. We have to run in every single province, every single territory that we work in following the rules. Yeah, yeah. And you share that kind of ethical standard with your partner People 2.0 — I mean, that's the thing. That's correct. Yeah. So going back

32:31to that — having that partnership really helped us evolve. Since we've formed that relationship with People 2.0, we grew almost 500 percent organically since 2019. And it's been a great ride working with them, a great relationship. So right now we're just formalizing — setting up our company in the US. We want to start our operations there. And People 2.0, they're global, so we're able to help with any of our customers. We

33:01have a few customers right now that are actually working in the US that just called us needing labour in the Houston area. And then also our Pomerleau client that we work with in Canada — we're growing that out, working with them right across Canada for both staffing and payrolling. And then also they have a pretty big operation in the US and we want to start working with them over there as well. So that's why we're just making sure we're getting set up right now

33:24properly. And hopefully in the next month or two we'll be fully set up in the US. Yeah. And other than that, you know, that 2014 period — and you mentioned diversifying — I'm going to assume that your construction niche and the commercial industrial side was a big thing during the wave of the pandemic, when maybe some other industries were suffering and that essential service was staying at the forefront and moving along strongly. Is that — would that be

33:52correct? Yeah, I mean, we're pretty fortunate — grateful to be in Canada. I mean, I just travelled to Mexico there with my family for Christmas and talking to a lot of locals there, the government there wasn't helping anybody. Right. So for us being in Canada I'm very grateful for that, because as you know we got a lot of support — both the federal and the provincial government — with the wage subsidy, rent subsidy, a lot of different loans from the provincial

34:17side as well. So it really helped that aspect. But also, like you said, we're kind of the essential service in construction, so we didn't really miss a beat. Even though we were working from home for about three months during the lockdown initially, a lot of our employees were working in the field — which I felt kind of bad about, because I thought it was a bit hypocritical: we're all at home being safe, we didn't know what was going on, and our employees were out working in the field.

34:40Anyway, it all worked out in the end. Yeah, well they had lots of precautionary measures at that time too, right? To the point where they could barely move. Yes, sir. No, they did for sure. Yeah. My next question was: as far as the Calgary market — and that's where you grew — and now, like you mentioned, you're planning on setting up shop in the US. You've been helping clients in the US for a while, all across the country. But

35:08Calgary's been a good place for you — obviously you've had all that growth there. It's a pretty thriving market. I mean, that's kind of no secret that Alberta is a busy spot. But maybe just a few comments on Alberta in general. Yeah, I mean, it's unfortunately a boom and bust concept over there. Anybody can attest to this, living there for the last 20 plus years or maybe their whole lives.

35:33And it's very unfortunate but that's just the way it is. But right now I feel like we're getting a little bit more leveled out — a little more consistent. Oil is obviously trading at a higher number and has been for a while, and all indicators show it's going to be pretty strong for the next probably five to ten years. It's not going away. So for us we really want to try to capitalize on that market and

35:58really try to get into the industrial side, because that's really where our sweet spot is and where our fundamentals — what we can do best for our clients — is those shutdowns. Just because we do have those crews that have worked for us in the past in shutdowns, we know what tickets are required, we know what sites — we've worked on a lot of these projects before: CNRL, Suncor, PHP mine,

36:23name a few — LNG Canada. So we know what their expectations are, what the requirements are. A lot of our employees have worked in that space before, so we're able to pivot very quickly. Say for example a client calls us tomorrow — we need 50 pipefitters on site, right. We can move very quickly. We have 14 full-time staff in my office right now in Calgary, so we're able to move very quickly and get the end client what they need, very

36:50quickly. Yes, your value proposition for these large industrial projects is very high. So when it comes to Atlantic Canada and the east coast, you mentioned doing some work for the Irvings and maybe some other local ones. You know, no secret that things are busy here in the commercial construction space. Maybe you can share your thoughts on the industrial side. Is there kind of a plan? Do you have some plans to

37:21kind of start to do some more business here and capitalize on where the market is right now? Yeah, definitely. I mean, it's been amazing to see. Because I'm originally from New Brunswick and the east coast, and for many many years the wage differential has been insane going from Alberta to the east coast. And now we're starting to see that gap close very quickly. So for us, I know with my end client here in Halifax — it's a shipbuilding yard.

37:48Their wage just went up. They had a ratification with the union and they're now paying $43 an hour for trades on site. So one thing we didn't mention earlier — one thing that makes the difference with a lot of staffing companies — is we always make sure all our employees are at wage parity, which means they're making the same money as the end client's direct workers. You're not paying them less. Which some labour staffing companies will do. Yeah. I mean, to be

38:15competitive, yeah — every staffing company is different. And to be competitive, to your point. But with us, we always want to make sure that when we're building our rate, we know what rate they're paying currently on site, and we'll build our rate off that. And for two reasons: one, we want to make sure our employees are treated fairly, and number two, we don't want to have infighting going on on site. And that causes a major problem. And this is

38:38coming from 20 years of experience. Because if someone on site wasn't hired through labour staffing or Matrix, and is working for company XYZ right next to another guy that Matrix sent who's making five bucks less or something — make no mistake, they're talking about their wages before coffee break. Right. So yeah, it happens. Although it's no one's business — no — it happens on every job. And what we're trying to do is mitigate that issue for the end client as well. So we don't

39:01want them dealing with that drama on site. So what we try to do is make sure — and that's the reason why, the two formal reasons: to make sure our employees are fairly paid. Otherwise you're going to have disunity in your crew. That's correct. And the production is going to go down. You're probably going to get fights. Yeah, yeah. So that's one benefit. So right now, that $43 an hour is right here in Halifax, which is crazy because for so many years you've seen a massive swing

39:24between the two — Alberta, Saskatchewan. Yeah, I'm sorry, yeah. And that gap has closed. That gap's closed big time. So what is it in Alberta? So it's pretty exciting, it's great to see. Alberta right now, when you're in oil and gas on the industrial side, it's probably about $45. So that's kind of the medium pay rate — it goes from $45 to maybe the low $50s. So to see that — that's really great. So for me being here today

39:52speaking with you, getting the message out — but also wanting to get some videos and snap it on social media — really trying to sell that east coast lifestyle. I'm from the east, love coming back, love seeing family and friends. A lot of trades people might be working out west right now. You may want to take a look at what we've got to offer. We're paying $43 an hour, there's some overtime being offered,

40:16and we're also offering full benefits with these positions. About these specific rates you just mentioned — for the shipbuilding positions, what trades would those be? So the two main ones right now are metal fabricators and welders. Those are the two main ones we're looking for. And with those two roles, we're able to pay LOA for anybody living 80 kilometres outside the radius of the shipyard — that's $135 a day LOA, tax-free. And then we're also able to offer on top of that $220 a week

40:45for travel. So that's great. Are these entry level apprenticeship positions, or are they journeyman? Unfortunately we can't offer that to any apprentices — it's just for tradesperson journeyman Red Seal. Yeah. So those are the two main ones, but there's — we're hiring for all trades on that project: painters, labourers. But those will all be localized. But the two that we're able to offer the LOA and travel for are the welders and metal fabricators right now. Okay. Yeah, well that's — so going back to that,

41:15yeah, really trying to reach anybody working out west — if you want to come back, or want to come back for the summer, yeah, you're closer to your family, you're closer to the ocean. No better place to be than the east coast! Yeah, we're gonna have a sound bite go out with that one for sure. And tomorrow — just to continue on that path — you're going to the Halifax Transportation and Skilled Trades Career Fair. I think it's here at the Nova Centre. That's another reason

41:37you're in town. That's correct. Really nice — great that you stopped by to see us. And some of your team is coming in for that event tomorrow. Yeah, you're at a lot of these events I'm assuming, with the team from Matrix. And that's another benefit for clients using us — we're going to all these job fairs right across Canada, talking to people and building that database continuously on a weekly basis. So we're spending a lot of time and energy and money. In fact, I've got

42:01two employees here — I've got Tamalek and Mac — that flew in this morning. They're meeting employees there at the hotel tonight and then tomorrow we've got a few meetings and then we're doing the job fair in the afternoon from one to four. And so to go back to what you just mentioned, to anyone listening and looking for positions in metal fabricators and welders — it's as simple as going to the Matrix website, look at the job postings, sign up and go from

42:27there. Is that what you would advise for the employee side to get in touch with you? Definitely. Check out our website — it's www.matrixlabourleasing.com. Labour spelled

42:38out. We're always posting current job ads and you can apply there directly. Or you can email me — Shannon at matrixlabourleasing.com. And we also have a Facebook page, LinkedIn page — you can find us. We're very visible that way. But we have a long-term contract with Irving and so we're always going to have these roles coming and going. So we're really trying to build that database. And the key element here is: if you're at all interested,

43:05just get yourself set up because we have to go through OLUS — it's the Controlled Goods program with the federal government — and the documentation takes about a week to process. So if you're interested at all, just get that started. Get the ball rolling. Get yourself in the system — it doesn't cost you anything. Yeah. And that way, if you ever want to come and jump on site, we can get you going right away. Can you — the term social recruitment —

43:28you know, look at Matrix's 20-year history, all the large and small clients you've helped out on the employer side, project size, and then all the employees you've hired over the years in different roles, and the different partners that you have — that's a huge advantage, right? I mean, the social recruitment side — just to be able to say, hey, come on, you know, we've got huge social capital there as far as our network and our

43:58history. And I'm sure there are still instances where there are certain specific positions where you've got to kind of reach outside what's existing in your system to bring in those people. But a lot of times what you've built is kind of turnkey — I'm assuming with that terminology — this social recruitment. Yeah, I mean, it's 20 years of dedication. Three years prior to that with Warren's Contracting. But we're all passionate, like,

44:25we've got 14 people in the office. I'm in the office every day working with my team. We have weekly team meetings — making sure: what are the issues, what's going on, how can we do things better. Like, we're not the best — and I can state that very clearly — we're not the best staffing company in the world. We're trying to get there. So we're working hard every day and we're very passionate about what we do and we care. And people can't take that away from us. We

44:45— and I know because my employees are there every single day working as hard as they can. Yeah, we're all very passionate about what we do. We actually care. We want to look after our employees. We want to make sure they've got everything they need. We want to be accessible, answer any questions they have, making sure that process is very seamless. Our onboarding is all electronic. Our payroll is paid weekly via direct deposit. We also want to make sure that

45:14all our employees have the full medical and dental benefits. So we do that through Open Circle, which used to be the American Contractors Association — they're across Canada. And they're formally structured for the construction industry, so that's the reason why I like using them. I've used them since day one, since the inception of Matrix. What I like about it is two things: one is they offer tuition reimbursement when you take your apprenticeship training, which

45:40I think is really important. And especially if you want to get into that — like we talked about — junior superintendent or superintendent role, you really have to get that fundamental right. Get your trade ticket to move up to that next level. This is a big part of Matrix as well — staying at the top of the training curve. It is, it's huge. We want our people to be elevated. Yeah. And that's one thing people don't think — they probably don't think that of us — but we

46:02really want to make sure that — and even though they're not being paid for it — we want to make sure all our employees, internal and external, are moving up that ladder. Yeah. If that means we have to part ways, that's the way it is, because we want them to grow. And if it's the best thing for them, it's the best thing for them. You know, I'm telling you, there are so many stories over the years where they become a site superintendent, and then they call us looking for

46:21people. So it evolves. It's like a full 360 — they come on, they learn, they go through the whole process, they get their journeyman ticket, and they move on to maybe an end client. And they'll move them up to a superintendent role, and then they end up calling us for labour down the road. It's got to be a good feeling when those calls come in. Big time. Yeah. And I just had a call the other day from a guy, Sebastian, now working at Graham

46:42Construction. And just talking — and this is so cool to hear — people say, if it wasn't for you I wouldn't be here. You know what I mean? Like yeah, you're a very influential part of their journey. That's right — to give them that leap. Yeah. I don't look at it that way. I don't think — I don't know — I figure it like that, but I just — it's

47:03nice to hear that, you know, as an instrumental or kind of vehicle from point A to point B. And now he's killing it — he's working in the industrial sector in Fort Mac and just loving life. So anyway, these are all elements that we really try to instill in our team. We want to make sure they're moving up the ladder. We don't want people to just be stagnant — we want them to be growing and learning every single day. And for my

47:24team, I don't try to micromanage too much. I always try to tell them, like, any kind of podcasts or anything you can do online, or just going out to networking events and just growing outside of the office — we've got to know what's going on out there. Yeah. And then, you know, for the end user client, I mean, a lot of people say, why would we use Matrix? Well, you know, we have a lot of years of

47:46experience. We offload a lot of that risk, mitigate that risk for the end client. We're also able to react very quickly and move very quickly on the labour for a project. And rather than spending a bunch of money and time trying to hire 30, 40 carpenters or pipefitters, for one phone call we can do it all — we can get them what they need very quickly and efficiently. We're taking on all the risks. We're able to offer that 30-60

48:11day payment terms. The other key factor is, you know, we have all the accreditations. We're with ISNetworld, ComplyWorks, and Avita. So it takes a lot of work — it's a lot of money every year to pay these membership fees. But not only that, we've got to process information every week, every month internally within our office, making sure that we're compliant. Yeah. So having all these accreditations speaks to our credibility

48:37and then also the First Nation alignments that we have — working with different First Nations right across Canada. For that matter, we have First Nation relationships in BC, Alberta, and Saskatchewan. And any jobs that we have we're always offering the open roles to the First Nation partners that we work with. We also have the JV partnership in Prince Rupert, which is obviously a big help especially working on that project with LNG Canada. And that's how we ended up getting a pretty big

49:06opportunity as of late with one of the biggest insurance companies in Canada. And so because of the First Nation alignment with the inclusionary spends — we really want to continue working with First Nations, and also with their non-profit groups. We work with a lot of non-profit groups here in Nova Scotia as well, right across western Canada. And these are all elements that we work on that really help the end user client, because we're doing all

49:33this heavy lifting, doing all this work — holistic approach. Yeah. So for the client, just for an example — the non-profit groups we work with in Calgary: if they need a safety ticket or if they need any PPE that's required for the job site and they're missing it, they'll pay for it. So it really works out well because the end client's not paying for it, Matrix is not paying for it — it's the non-profit group that's paying for it. And

49:56it's really helpful because the end client doesn't have a lot of time to deal with the whole hiring process and making sure they have all these proper tickets and the PPE requirements. So that's part of the service — we're going to look after all that for them so they're able to focus on the front end, which is making their customer happy. Exactly. And they're on time, they're on budget. Everybody's kind of doing what they're specialized in, able to stay in

50:17your lane. Yeah. So being the founder and CEO of a labour staffing company that focuses — among other things — highly on commercial construction: a big topic in the industry, on the east coast, across the country nationally, and I'd say in North America. I think a lot of different people we've had on and talked to at different events in Toronto and other places is labour shortage. I'm just wondering, like, do you guys feel like you have a certain pulse on that labour

50:49shortage, just in your unique position? Some comments on that. I was going to ask, like, you know, in your — call them your candidate reserves — like, it's not like — I don't know if that's even a proper way to explain it or articulate it. But like, you know, there's lots of "hey, we've got lots of plumbers in Calgary if you're looking for them," "here are your site supers with a certain amount of experience." Like across the board, is there a certain

51:13thing that's lacking from what you see? Just comments on the shortage. Because of our fast growth — I mean, obviously the staffing issue is a major problem right across Canada and the US as well. North America. So for us it was a really good moment in time to capitalize on it and grow. Obviously, yeah. But it's also very challenging. Very challenging for sure. Yeah, it's a lot more effort, a lot more work for us to find what's required. But I know

51:42with the majority of clients that reached out to us last year, we were able to support and help them — at least, I would say, 75 to 80 percent of the requirements. Which is a pretty big deal going through what we went through. But yeah, we're fingers on the pulse on that for sure. I mean, we're talking to the apprenticeship training board. You're seeing less people having kids — so that's the number one issue, right. So you've got less population coming in.

52:08The last couple years of COVID they shut the border down, so you're having less immigration coming in. And then also what we just talked about earlier is the Baby Boomers that are all retiring — and a lot of people have already retired or are going to be retiring in the next five to seven years. So no matter what — lack of youth entering the trades, lack of youth too, right. So if you take that combination of three, you're going to have a major problem no matter what. So even if

52:30the economy stalls or slows down, it doesn't matter, because you're going to have a major issue. If we're not solving this problem from all different angles, it's not going to — maybe not weather the storm very well. No. And I think now with the immigration, like with the border opening, you're having a lot more people coming in now. So it's going to obviously mitigate some of that — it's going to help some of that issue, but not solve all the problems. Yeah.

52:54And we've seen that — I mean, we've seen that on the east coast for sure. Lots of immigrant workers on job sites in construction for sure. And you see that as well in the western provinces. We do, yeah. We see a lot of it. And we've seen more of it. But like I said, during COVID the border was shut down, so you're just seeing a massive need for trades right now — or anything for that matter. Even my small town in New

53:17Brunswick — my brother owns a dollar store and he has a hard time finding people to work. And all the local employers are having a hard time. So it's not just construction, but construction is the main component of that. I mean, it's right across Canada where we're lacking in trades for sure. Yeah. And I think even people we've talked to in the past — you know, in the past 50 episodes on our podcast here in Atlantic Canada — whether they're a

53:39developer in Halifax or a general contractor that does work all over Atlantic Canada and sometimes maybe south of the border or central Canada when the opportunity pops up — these guys are always looking for, you know, a really experienced site super, maybe 10 years or more experience, high paid position, six figures. And they're also — you have people trying to build internal crews of skilled carpenters. I mean, any of these people could be reaching out to Matrix from the east coast. That's right.

54:06You know, I'm talking to a company that's building some timber homes — they want to start their own crew that'll travel from the east coast and south of the border. They want to find 12 highly skilled Red Seal carpenters in camp. So these are scenarios that fit Matrix as well. Definitely. Yeah, I mean, since we started 20 years ago with Matrix, we've been more so on the west

54:31coast, as you probably know. Yeah. And then over the years we grew out into Saskatchewan, Ontario, Manitoba. We're doing some work right now in the Northwest Territories as well. And then now having our contract at the shipbuilding yard kind of puts us more on the east coast. Yeah. And because of that contract we were able to get another customer right here in Halifax. They have work in Newfoundland currently, and they also

54:59have some work locally at the shipyard as well. So we're helping to support them. Anybody else — I mean, we obviously want to grow and we want to grow in any market we're working in, in any province. So we want to make sure we're able to help support anybody that wants to use our service. And as far as being on the east coast as opposed to maybe other areas geographically that you've done lots of labour staffing in —

55:23it's the same service, same everything. It's just — you may need to find some people that are willing to move there from somewhere else, or yeah. It's the same service right across Canada, and now moving into the US. But we're able to satisfy anybody that needs us. And like I said, we've got a couple different verticals — we do all construction, the professionals, IT, admin, and then oil and gas — oil and gas for sure — and

55:50pipeline work. And then the big thing for us too is being able to offload that back-end office component. So if they want to offload their payroll, even on a project-by-project basis, or if there is a company coming into Canada, we're able to help all their needs. So if they're looking for someone to do their back-end payrolling, looking for someone to do the staffing, we can do it all. Talk a little bit about — this is your

56:1120th anniversary and we got to hear some of your journey there — some really neat stories. And thank you for sharing that with us and being vulnerable and talking about the journey out west, and how your dad was so helpful, and how far you've come. Yeah. It's got to be — you mentioned already that you're doing a lot of reflecting the last few days. But for you and your employees, that's a big thing. 20 years is a big

56:38milestone. Yeah, congratulations. Obviously. But maybe just give us some comments on 20 years. Yeah, thank you. It's honestly been a real journey and I've enjoyed the ride. A lot of highs and lows for sure. And especially being in Alberta in 2014 — there were probably about four or five really hard years there. Yeah. Buy-a-job market. The market hit really hard, wasn't much opportunity. Yeah. So we had to really weather that storm. We had to

57:06fight through it. And then we kind of were coming out the other side, starting to see some confidence in the market, starting to see some opportunities. And then COVID. Yeah. And that was, obviously initially, scary for myself running a business, because you've got people you've got to look after — your external employees, your internal employees. For me it's a big responsibility. So you want to make sure that you're looking after your staff the best that you can. So

57:33when that hit — a lot of uncertainty. But luckily, like I said, the government helped a lot of companies here in Canada. And us being an essential service, we were able to keep rolling. And then when things got really busy, we were able to pay off all the debt we had incurred during the downturn. So we paid off all our debt and we're running very strong right now. We've got zero debt within our company. Don't even

57:54have a line of credit. Cash flow positive. Last year was our best year on record. And this year is looking to be really good because we're getting into a new vertical — IT and admin. How satisfying must that feel for yourself? Yeah, it's really hard to put into words, hard to describe. Because my partner Breanna — we're not married yet but we're engaged — when she met me I was going through that

58:22really difficult time. So thinking, you know, she hung in there with me and helped me ride out the storm. And then having her and our daughter — she's turning four here in June. So just, it's hard to describe. And people ask. And going through that whole process where you could have lost everything, you know — times were definitely difficult. And then going into COVID and I had a customer that didn't pay us 1.6 million dollars. And

58:47it's — you have a lot of sleepless nights. And for about a week there, after that non-payment from the customer, I had insomnia, I couldn't sleep. And those days you don't forget. I mean, pretty difficult times. So luckily for me, I had a good partner in People 2.0 — they helped me through that whole process and we were able to get legal on the case and we were able to get half our money back. And the rest

59:13came back from money that I made during that time. So we were able to get that debt paid off. But yeah, I mean, it's been a wild ride. And to experience that super low and go through those difficult times and then get everything paid off — and feeling that — I mean, everything's happening so quickly that you don't really have a lot of pause to really reflect. But overall it's like — you're a different person. You're just so much

59:39happier and a different outlook. And yeah, especially excited — I have a family, I've got employees, all the things you've built up over the years. And you could have lost it all, it was just so close. And I was able to fight through that. So again, going back to gratitude. In the morning when you wake up — a lot of people wake up angry, or they're pissed off or whatever. So with me it's like, wait — you wake

60:03up with gratitude. And that's how you start off your day. And then just do a moment of prayer and you just keep fighting a good fight every day. And I feel like, because of the gratitude and praying every morning and doing your little ritual — and really not only talking about how grateful you are but showing it — it really changes your world. Yeah. I'm so glad you brought that up because I've been trying to journal — just

60:29little things that I'm grateful for. And starting with just all kinds of stuff. And at first it can be kind of hard, but I think it's like a muscle you can work. And it's like we're not naturally grateful — I think our humanity always comes to the front. But after doing that for a while in the mornings, it's kind of like you're carving these new paths in your brain, in your heart, whatever. And it's like then I

60:54start thinking of all these other little things that I'm grateful for. You know, gratitude is kind of like a muscle — once you start working it, you're exercising it. Does that make sense? Yeah, 100%. Yeah, I'm glad you shared that because I haven't had that discussion with very many people. I kind of keep that to myself. And I'm writing down things I'm grateful for. But yeah, it makes a difference. It works. Yeah, it helps a lot.

61:14And my daddy passed away — I think about five years ago now. And he's celebrating that 20th anniversary — it meant a lot. For everything he's done for me and kind of built me up. And so when I look at my daughter I want to do the same thing. And even my staff — internal or external — over time they become like family. And I'm like family with them. And you want to help, you want to support, you want to lift them up. And you want

61:38people — even if they have to leave — at the end of the day, yeah, people come and go. I was going to ask you — I know from our conversation and just meeting you here today and talking earlier how much your employees mean to you. It's evident in your culture and throughout the dialogue about your company. And I don't want to get you to throw out certain people's names and leave someone else out. But yeah, just on the 20th

62:01anniversary and the team behind you — the team you've built, the people that are playing key roles — I mean that's such a big thing as well. It's just a big thing. And I'm glad you mentioned that because there's two employees in particular: Mike Lago, my VP of Operations. He was a close friend of mine — I met him back in Vancouver, probably 25 years ago now. And he started with Matrix 10 years ago, now as my VP of Operations. And then Claudia

62:26Navarro — she wears many hats in our firm, but she's business development, looking after a lot of things in her office and the recruitment team. Very passionate — hardest working person I know, hardest working person in the room always. And without them I wouldn't have been able to get through that difficult time — the downturn in Alberta with the oil, and then the non-payment. So having them fight, help me fight through that whole process —

62:53because of them being there with me — helped me get to the other side. So yeah, absolutely. So because of that, I'm going to make them both small owners of Matrix. Because without them I wouldn't have been able to get here. But I also want them to be invested. And for us, we want to find an exit at some point. Yeah. And so that's everything I wanted to discuss today too — we really want to focus

63:18this year on an M&A play. So we want to work with open-minded, like-minded business owners like myself that maybe have 10, 20, 30 years in the business and maybe are looking to do something. So we're looking to either merge or become an acquisition target. So we want to grow that way this year. And us being debt-free and having cash in the bank, we want to grow that way as well. Organically, luckily for us we've been able to grow exponentially

63:44the last three years. Yeah. But obviously that's going to — you can't keep doing that year over year over year. I think this year we're probably going to grow 30 or 40 percent based on what we see right now, which is still a pretty big number. And then we want to look at some targets. But also we want to work with like-minded business owners too, and maybe look at a merge or maybe how we can be a sub-vendor on either side or how we can work

64:06together. Yeah, position yourself in that way — you're protected and just planning for the future. Exactly. It's an exit for certain people. Constant game of positioning. Yeah. And for me, honestly, we want to exit at some point, but I want to make sure that my staff are benefiting from that. So Mike and Claudia for sure — they're both in management roles and helped me through a lot. So I want to make sure that financially they're benefiting. But also

64:29the internal and external staff — making sure that whatever exit that's going to be, it's going to be a lot more opportunity. You know, potentially a bigger player coming in and taking us out at some point. We want to be able to work with that and making sure we're working with First Nation partners and our non-profit groups and making sure that all aligns. But right now, really just trying to find ways to find more opportunities to grow on

64:53new verticals, cross-border, First Nation relationships — these are all key to our business. And we want to make sure we're focusing on the right things this year, not shiny things — the right things. Yeah. But yeah, so that's one thing I wanted to talk about today: just working with like-minded business owners that are in the staffing space, anywhere in Canada or the US for that matter, that some of the things I talked about today may align with them. So just reach out

65:20and we can have a chat. Yeah, we definitely hope that this will create some ripples on the east coast and maybe south of the border too. So it's great having you. Is there anything else we didn't touch on that you wanted to mention on behalf of Matrix, on behalf of yourself? We touched on a lot of things. Yeah, it's actually a lot of fun today. Yeah, yeah, no, for myself too. It's a really good conversation. It's a great story. It's

65:43great that you're from the area too and you've had all the success in Calgary. And just to hear about your journey and the three years in with the first company and all that, and then obviously the last few years — 2014 and on — it sounds like you've had quite a ride. I think those stories are what our audience — and you know, we can

66:08talk about technical stuff all day. We can talk about all kinds of things — lead generation, advertising and marketing — and like, it's all those things, they're always going to be there. But I think what really resonates is people's stories, their personal stories. And just hearing you a little bit emotional talking about your dad's influence — that's been really special for me. And I'm sure for our listeners it will be as well. Yeah. And my mom too — I

66:33don't want to leave her out. I didn't mean to — I meant to mention your mom earlier — but no, she's been very supportive of me over the years. And luckily she's still with us. And spending as much time as I can with her. And yeah, with my daughter. But I think as a takeaway for me — I'm very lucky to have moved to a province like — you know, Vancouver, and then going to Calgary. Calgary is my home now. I've lived there full time for the last 23 or 24 years.

66:58Giving back to the community. I'm on the Flames Foundation poker committee — I have been for the last four or five years, working with like-minded people. It's a lot of fun. Yeah, get to go to a lot of hockey games and do a lot of fun things with that organization. We just raised $425,000 last month at the poker tournament — you get all the players and the coaches out. And yeah, it's a really fun night. So we raised a

67:21lot of money that night. It was a lot of fun. Two years of hiatus with COVID. So is it a poker tournament for the Flames organization? It was actually a charity event that we have. So the Flames players, the coaches, partake. Okay. And then we get business owners like myself and other businesses to be sponsors. And is it for one specific charity or many? It's for the Flames Foundation itself and all the money goes to different things — I mean, like

67:46mostly in the community of Calgary and First Nations. I think they built a rink there for the Tsuut'ina Nation. And then they do a lot of different things, and also a big thing with sports — kids that can't afford to get in or the equipment, they'll look after that. They do a lot with the Kids Cancer Foundation as well, Camp Kindle. So being part of that organization is really near and dear to my heart, and I love spending my time there doing what I

68:13can to add more value and bring in the sponsorship dollars for that event. And then also with the Kids Cancer Foundation, I've done the High Hope challenge there a couple of times, raised a bunch of money for them. And again, having a four-year-old daughter and looking at those kids and what they're going through — there are no bad days, right. So for me it hits home hard. Not that there's anything wrong with my daughter, yeah, but you just always think, what would happen? Or

68:43what would I do? So having an organization like the Kids Cancer Foundation of Alberta — they do a lot of good things. And for me, I'm just blessed to be a part of it and help them where I can. So as you do better in life you want to be able to give back to your community. For sure. Yeah. That's amazing. Shannon Warren, CEO and founder of Matrix Labour Leasing — it's been a pleasure chatting with you today. A

69:08real honor for myself to sit and have this conversation with you. And like, you know, for me as a man, mid-30s, in the construction industry as an entrepreneur — someone like you is someone who I'd want to work for. Somebody strong enough to do what you've done but then humble enough to get on your knees and pray in the morning — that's a lot of respect for that. And yeah, really, really respect that. And just thanks for being here. It's

69:32been a great time. Awesome, thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Cheers. This episode is brought to you by Cook Insurance — your trusted insurance broker in Atlantic Canada for 50 years. Insurance is complex and the Cook team focuses on delivering comprehensive solutions for your construction needs, including builders risk, wrap-up liability, performance bonds, and project-specific construction. A Navacord partner since 2020, Cook is one of the largest construction brokers in Canada and offers national strength with a local touch. Whatever your insurance needs are, Cook has you covered. The team at

70:00the Atlantic Construction Podcast have been able to build a strong relationship with the folks over at FCA Surety. FCA Surety is heavily engaged in supporting the Atlantic Construction marketplace and helping contractors to build their businesses, and we can't recommend them enough. While FCA has their head office in Ontario, many of the members of their team have lived in Atlantic Canada and worked in the construction community here. This gives them a unique national perspective with a local flavor. Andrew Curry leads FCA's national surety operations as Vice President of Surety.

70:25Their knowledge of the bonding marketplace and understanding of how insurance companies view your business is unparalleled. In addition, the depth of their team and reach across Canada gives them the ability to draw on numerous experiences to help clients navigate items like sub-trade construction disputes, liens, and supply risk management. These are the things that separate FCA Surety from the pack. Make sure to give the guys a call over at FCA Surety for all of your bonding and surety needs.