How to Build a Construction Team That Runs Without You | Dura Seal's Amin Tran

0:00We'd like to thank our formal partner Pisant Building Products. Pisant has a 60,000 sq ft facilitation centre currently underway, as well as having acquired a new location in Windsor. Lots of change and big news with Pisant, and we look forward to having them back on the podcast in the near future. We'd like to thank our co-branded partner Procore Technologies. Procore Technologies is the global leader in construction management software. We look forward to having many guests from across the country, from all different capacities, under the Procore partnership umbrella. Luminous Labs is

0:29the leading provider of architectural visualizations for developers, homeowners, architects, and more. Luminous Labs has a team of experienced designers and visualizers using cutting-edge technology to bring your 3D renderings to life. Using these architectural visualizations will give you a sense of scale, space, and design, allowing you to make informed decisions about your projects before construction even begins. These high-end architectural visualizations are a perfect tool for presentations, marketing materials, and design reviews, allowing you to communicate your vision to stakeholders, clients, and more. Okay, welcome back to

1:04the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Very pleased to have our guest today, Amin Tran, from Vancouver, British Columbia. Amin is a partner with GWD Partners, and thank you for coming in today. I know we were talking earlier, and your wife is from Eastern Passage — is that right? Yeah, she's from the Passage, so like most Maritimers she left shortly after university in pursuit of opportunities and careers out west, and intended to be only six months — ended up

1:41being about 20 years. Yeah, and along the way we met and she fished me back here, so I'm happy to be in Nova Scotia. Awesome, awesome. You mentioned — and we were chatting there — you have a kind of a unique transition into the construction space from a retail background. Maybe not so unique; lots of people use their sales skills and people skills to move into any number of spaces in construction. But maybe just tell us a little bit about

2:10that transition and what you were — your background. Yeah, there's a lot of soft skills that can be transferred from industry to industry, right — whether it's retail, hospitality over to construction, etc. For me it started in the great year of 1989. That was the year my beloved Calgary Flames won the Cup, and it'll be the only year they ever win it. I got to stop you right there — that was a good year! Nieuwendyk — who else was on the team that year?

2:36Ha! Lanny McDonald — still playing? Yeah, Lanny McDonald there — Jim Peplinski, who was captain. I can't remember — who else was on there? Mike Vernon? Oh yeah, you said yeah — Mike. Those are the glory days, just the latter part of the 80s. Yeah, between all the — the original Battle of Alberta, when you had Messier, Tikkanen, Gretzky — yeah, Gretzky, all those guys.

3:09Unreal. It's a different time now that we're reminiscing. Yeah, but did you get to any of the games? Were you there or were you living out — yeah, young enough. Back when I was in college, right. I actually worked in the Calgary Flames upper auditorium as a bartender, so I got to meet some of the players' wives and stuff, and knew who tipped and who tipped big, and who had some of their dirty — it was pretty neat being a young man at the

3:32time, so it was great. Awesome. But yeah, 1989 was a year — it was special. That was the year I picked up my first glass cutting tool, so sort of following my dad into the glass trade. He worked at a small glass shop in Calgary, right, and I would go there on the evenings and weekends and help sweep, help do things, grab them coffee, clean their tools, that kind of stuff. And just for our listeners — when you say a

3:55glass shop, you mean like a glass manufacturing shop — he was an installer as well, or no? Just a small little local glass shop — one that you'd go to to get, like say, your window repaired, your windshield — you'd bring in a picture frame. Back then when it was very much still a trade and a craft. Yeah. Today glazing is defined a lot differently, right — it's associated more with building envelope and construction. But a glazier back then, you're doing everything to do with glass. So

4:22that's where I first got started — my first real taste into a trade or construction. Like most immigrant kids, I guess, mom and dad said go to university, go get yourself a career, go climb a corporate ladder. So that's sort of where I was encouraged to go. Long story short, after some — like, do you mean you were pressured by your parents to do that, or was that kind of — it's kind of what they knew, it's all

4:48they knew, right. And I think it's because they never had the opportunity, so they thought, hey, this is the golden ticket on how you're going to make it in life if you could get it. Not that it's a bad thing — there was a bit of pressure, right. It's good pressure, exactly. It's not a bad thing either. But I ended up not doing really well in high school and ended up dropping out in grade 11. Did a couple

5:10years of things — working in the trade, working in construction — mostly because school wasn't your thing? It was never my thing, sitting there in the classroom — just not your way of learning. Yeah, no, I just thought there were other ways to go out there and make money, right. While my friends and stuff were starting off working at McDonald's or whatever — and nothing wrong with that — I was in the shop making more money than them, learning what I thought was a pretty cool trade, and

5:33being able to use my hands. So that was sort of my first love and introduction into the industry. I would take a couple years off, and one day I decided to go back to school, and I took what was called a pre-careers transition program — where if you didn't have your high school diploma you could take this bridging program so that you could actually go into one of their qualified trades. So I signed up there, went into industrial

5:59engineering — didn't quite finish there either. Made it to three semesters, 1.9 GPA. So again I wasn't meant for school. But was that a battle for you? As far as the fact that you're somebody who's done well for yourself — was there a time where the fact that school wasn't for you, and you probably had a lot more on the entrepreneurial side, and vision, and those kind of things, and building relationships — and obviously

6:28the intelligence to do so — but like, the fact that you didn't do well in school, is that something you had to kind of get over? It sort of was, at the time — when you listen to those around you. So many people are telling you, like, that's the way — you know, you get a 1.9 GPA, it's sort of saying you're not smart enough. You're not smart enough to get a higher GPA in this program, and the way

6:51it's structured, right. It does — yeah, exactly. So it's kind of being funneled through a process, right. And things don't make sense until you look back down the road — after you've gone through certain things. I guess you look back and, like Steve Jobs said, you only then know how to connect the dots. So looking back, the reason why I wasn't meant for school and the corporate environment — which I'll get to in a bit — is I guess I was never

7:15meant for rigidity or to follow a path. I was meant to go find my own. So sometimes it got me into trouble, sometimes it turned out well, and the adventure still continues. So yeah. I didn't finish the industrial engineering program, but there was a presentation we had to do — and this is kind of weird, because I had missed school quite a bit. I got stuck with these two guys for our presentation, and they thought they got stuck with me. The two guys were

7:45actually pretty good at analyzing and compiling data, but they didn't want to speak in front of the class. So I volunteered to speak in front of the class, and it was also presented to industry. Right off of that, that's where I got my first job. About 48 hours later, one of the gentlemen in the industry on the panel came out and offered me an interview, and a few days later he hired me. I stuck with it and I never went back to

8:07school. Then I sort of followed my career through him for a little bit. And they thought they got stuck with you. Yeah, they thought — funny enough, we still keep in touch today, though. Yeah, that's great. No, that's a great story — kind of sums it up right there, doesn't it? Yeah, exactly. So from there, you know, you learned a lot about, over the course of your career, just about

8:39life and business not being mutually exclusive. And that kind of ties into business development and the sales side of things and the entrepreneurial — the unique path you get to carve for yourself, right. Because you came from retail and now you're in construction, and different things — building envelope scopes and that kind of stuff, div 7 to 9, those kind of things. But when you're really selling

9:09yourself — you're always selling yourself. It doesn't matter if it's a material, labour, supplying this or that, or selling shoes. In a sense, you are who people meet. And if you're somebody that they want to talk to again, then you can sell anything, I guess. In a sense, you should be comfortable and confident with yourself — to be where you are in business and in your personal life. That should be the same person, the same

9:38character. Yes, there are certain things that you gear up for in an environment — like if you're going to a formal business event, okay, of course you've got to dress up, there's certain etiquette, right. But overall as a character, you are who you are. You shouldn't hide it. But all that stuff about confidence and self-assurance and responsibility — that sort of begins at an early age. Yeah, and that's like a long conversation. The years that I was in

10:05retail — I spent at Walmart for about four years, and I eventually became a district manager for them. But one of the most fulfilling parts of the job that I enjoyed was doing store orientations for new hires. And it was a job that other managers would pawn off on each other, because they had it in their head that you're going to do orientation for this group of 10 people or 20 people or whatever it is, knowing that only three of those

10:3110 are going to stay — it's just the natural attrition in retailing, the turnover. And Walmart, like a lot of companies — it's a great company, but it's very corporate, very process-driven, systemized. So you watch the corporate mantra, watch the videos, and it kind of walks you through the history, etc. You're trying to get these kids to buy in — and I say kids because most of them were young, applying to be cashiers and stuff, etc. But mentally you're kind

10:57of coaching — you're kind of, well, that's what they call us. Your intuition to see who might be a good fit for a role. And they always said don't call yourself a manager — you're the leader, you're the coach, whatever. Like, okay, fine, some of it is rhetoric, but there's a lot of merit to it. And I always took the approach of, you know what, we'll watch the video together, I'll ask the room what do you guys think, and they'll sort of nod. I go, no, what do you

11:17guys really think? And then somebody will finally say, well, that's sort of cheesy — you've got to get it out of them, right, in order to answer truthfully. And then I'll close up the book and I say, great, now we've got that out in the air. You guys are here for a job, and we need team members, we need associates to help us through the Christmas season or through whatever it is, right. I do not expect you guys to

11:40be here for the rest of your life. And in fact, if you guys are here for the rest of your life, I hope you either advance in your career or do something different in the company — whatever, right. But if you're still in the same position years from now, you haven't grown as a person. So what I expect from you are these things right here — you know, come to work, you show up, your work ethic, you put in the extra hour, you look clean, you

12:03look presentable, you're friendly — all that stuff, right. The pep talk. What you can get out of me — personally, not just from the company — is: number one, you're going to get organization; number two, you're going to get discipline; and the third is, you're going to get salesmanship — skills you're going to take with you everywhere you go throughout life. You're going to sell something to your wife or your significant other. You're going to have to sell an idea. You're going to have to sell a business plan. One day you may end

12:29up selling products, you know, door-to-door, online — life is about sales. So that's always served me well, just being authentic with people and telling them the straight goods. So yeah. Well, thanks for sharing that. There are so many different things that'd be interesting to dive into there. But let's — as far as this industry, ICI construction — you started off in 2017 with a small glass shop, yep, and moved along from there. You could just kind of start at

12:58that point and give us an idea of where you're at. So we moved to Nova Scotia in 2017 after much consideration, and my wife had this dream in her head that we're going to farm, we're going to live organic off the land. And of course we weren't farmers and that didn't happen. So I thought, well, let's start a glass shop — that was sort of my first love. I'm no longer

13:21in the corporate world, I can do whatever I want now. And I realized there was a definite — like father, like son — sort of going down that road. And I found that there was a void in the marketplace as far as service. Now if you ask any company out there in any industry why them, they always say it's service — we're service-oriented, we care about our customers. There's not a company that says we're going to intentionally provide crappy service. So it's kind of a cop-out, and

13:51it becomes like a generalized mantra. Service has to be defined, though — there's a process and behaviour to it. So let's say you're in a restaurant, right. Yes, it's service, but the service has to be defined as far as certain KPIs. So let's say the restaurant I went to yesterday — it was actually really good service there. How long did you wait before somebody greeted you? How long was it before they took you to the table? What was the time between the

14:16server coming to take your order when the server was right there? Did they read the specials that were on for the day? Did they recommend a drink? Did they recommend an additional shot for your Caesar? All these things are what service is, right. But it has to be measured — it's got to be put into behaviours and processes. I picked this up — I remember going to a restaurant, and she had taken us to the table. The table had craft paper on it — it was more of a kids' restaurant — but it

14:44had craft paper on there, and she took the crayon out and wrote a number. So when the waitress finally came by I said, hey, what's that number about? She goes, oh, that's a tracker — so from the time that you were seated to now, it's got to be within two minutes before I come back and offer you your drink. I said, okay, see — that's how you measure service. So in construction, you can say service all you want, but what does it mean? You have to define it. Can't just be like, oh,

15:06well, you know, we'll definitely take care of all the issues for our customers. That's contractual — that's the basics. Yeah. It's very interesting. It reminds me of — I don't know where I heard this story, someone somewhere at some point — but especially in larger city centres, say law students, or maybe somebody studying for a very career-oriented, high-paying position, and they're waitressing downtown at a very high-end restaurant. They finish their degrees, their masters, their

15:38PhD, whatever, and they stay waitressing because the money's so good. But what got them the job in the first place was an interview process where they had them sit at different tables with all kinds of different people, different backgrounds — just to see if they could carry on a conversation. That's right. They presented themselves well enough — you know, whether it's beautiful women or whatever, other scenarios — but they could carry on conversations with people and present themselves well enough in any

16:04social environment. So that's how they were hired. 100%. And those are the soft skills that you have to develop, and they don't all just come from formal training in university or whatever, or a construction school. Some of it is through life experience, and some of it is just through your nature and your upbringing. But the ability to relate to people, to be able to converse, to be able to lead — it's a highly sought-after skill. I think

16:34a lot of people who have those skills and a high degree sometimes don't always — can't put their finger on those gifts, whereas other people see it very clearly. But yeah, do you think that's true? It is true. And you probably experienced that yourself. Yeah, I think so. And even if you're a good coach, you should be able to spot those in others — spot the skills that they're good at, and then take that and harness it and redirect it, extract it and guide them. Yeah.

16:59Yeah, because they may not be — let's say I've got some project managers that are very technically savvy. They know specifications, they know engineering, they know the codes, but they can't talk to anybody if there's an issue. Quite common — whenever you have somebody who is very — say your typical engineer, or even what people think of when they hear the word engineer: somebody very knowledgeable, technical, a lot of depth, a lot of — right — very

17:30right-brained — is that right? Is it left brain? I forget. Right brain: creativity. Left brain: logic. Yeah, exactly. But so sometimes you might have somebody who — like, maybe they're a really good hockey player, maybe they played pro hockey and they were really good, and then they made a good coach. And I'm sure you could think of some good examples for that. Yeah. But most great hockey players are probably not great coaches, that's right. You know, it's hard to have both. Then

17:56there are people in the middle, though, who are good engineers and maybe very — well, it's knowing that. People-oriented. Like, if you know that that's your strength, right, and you're not going to change a lion into a gazelle or a gazelle into a tiger, whatever, right. You just have to harness that and don't put them in positions where they have to deal with, say, an adversarial contractor. And then you pull somebody else on the team to round out,

18:20because they're not going to do well there, right. And that person on the team that's very, say, people-oriented or conflict-resolution-oriented — they may not necessarily be into the details of the technicals either. But we were talking earlier about assembling a team that has any number of people with those different skills, right. And then you're not stuck if one person decides to leave or moves on, which happens all the time. And then you just

18:43replace that part of the puzzle. If you're building your organization or your team based on unicorns, and those unicorns carry very specific skills that are unique or exclusive to them — when they leave, there's such a big void. So if you round that out with the rest of your team, it's better to build a team around different people's strengths around the table than it is on one person. And you need that for redundancies as well. Can you share that

19:08story we were talking about off-air earlier, in line with — you've just mentioned a couple of people that you work with who are very technical, and rightfully so — but one of your site supers on a remediation project for building envelope in Vancouver, where you've got two or three buildings including a tower, where you're working right there with all the tenants because the exterior is being redone — and so your site super there is not like most site supers. No, so we

19:40have a really cool remediation project going on. It's about 58,000 square feet of building envelope that we have to redo — strip everything down while there are people living in these buildings. So we're infringing on people's homes. We're going to be there for 18 to 24 months — it's a long haul. And these people still have to go about their lives. Most of them would rather you not be there. Yeah, most of them would rather us not be there and never

20:07want to see us again, type of thing, right. Yeah. So you've got to make the best of the situation, and so for us we said, okay, how do we service it well? We need to be all over our communication. We need to give frequent updates, we need to give periodic updates. We need those updates to be on very specific key items that are important to them — how it impacts them, their unit, their timelines, when they can come and go, sleep, work, etc.

20:31Right. And this is a generalization, but most construction personnel are more akin to dealing with tradesmen on site, as opposed to maybe a bit more finesse to deal with client-facing work, say in retail or hospitality. So what we did was, when we built this team, we knew we had a project manager who was highly technical, very good at contract management. We had some foremen who were very good, hands-on leaders that could work alongside the guys and drive it,

21:02but we needed somebody to really communicate with the clients in the building. And so when we hired this gentleman, he had never run a massive project in his life. But what he did was he came from the home renovation side, where he was always in people's homes, and he also knew how to sell. He often dealt with the lady of the house — is what I remember him telling us — because that's not a client type that most site supers would even want to deal with at all. They could deal

21:27with the biggest, most complex projects on a huge commercial institutional building and trades. But when it comes to dealing with someone's wife in their house, it's like — yeah, you can run a hundred-million-dollar project, but when it comes to dealing with a 55-year-old person's home, I'm just saying, it's not for them. It's not for these guys. You can get into some pretty picky details, and rightfully so — it's their home, right. Yeah, exactly. And so for us, we built our team around the personalities that

21:55we needed on that table. And it's very interesting that you made that decision to put that person in that position because of their background — even though they didn't maybe have a lot of big projects under their belt — how did it go? How's it working? It's working out great. We're ahead of schedule right now. Cross fingers, things are still going to be fine and on track, and he's part of a team

22:16with a lot of support, right. So it's not like he has to know everything. His main role is front-facing. His main role is really to motivate and energize the guys and help kick-start the day and the week, and also interface with the clients to make sure things are communicated properly, and also work with the engineering consultants. So he's more of a relationship communicator — that's the profile. He doesn't need to know load structure, bearing,

22:41or the envelope detail — that's what our project managers are working on, that's what our team's working on. One of the things I've done in all my companies is we map out everybody in the organization — all different positions — using Myers-Briggs profiles. So then we can dig in, look at the team, and see who's more akin to what role, and have the right drivers in the right seats. So yeah. Myers-Briggs — I'm just thinking of

23:10this — are there 16 different categories? That's right, 16 categories, four acronyms. And the first one being an E or an I for extrovert or introvert. And then the last one being either T for turbulent and A for assertive — am I saying that correctly? So there are 16, and then two variations of those 16 for each one. Yeah, yeah, very interesting. What's yours? I'm just thinking — as you can see the wheels

23:37are turning there. I think it's INF — I forget the last. Okay, INF. So you're an introvert too? Yeah, yeah. I am. And I think — yeah, very people-oriented, and that's kind of how I get energized. But at the same time, yeah, introverted in many ways — like, thinking deep about things, and trying to connect dots that most other people don't explore under the surface. You should do the test after. I'm

24:10going to take a stab at and guess yours. Counsellor — I forget what the acronyms were on that — but Counsellor or Advocate? Yeah, I think that's exactly right. Yeah, that's yes, I guess. We'll see what that looks like. And what's yours? Mine is Architect. Okay, so kind of behind the scenes. Yeah. How do they describe it? Behind the scenes — don't want the spotlight, don't need the spotlight, but just want things to happen. So yeah, just want to create

24:38all the time — create the environment for things to happen. And yeah, I think sometimes people get those labels, these different profiles — and Myers-Briggs is a very proven model — and feel a little bit boxed in. Or maybe if they have a wrong context or understanding of the word extrovert or introvert, they might think, well, I don't like being called an introvert — it's kind of a negative connotation or something. Do you think people have that? There are limitations to it too, because

25:04over the years I've also seen where people start identifying as that, right. They go, oh no no, well I'm an Entertainer — that's why I'm boisterous and loud and I'm outgoing. Like, well, no, you don't have to be that either. There are certain environments where you do need to tame yourself down and meet the etiquette of that environment, right. I think we can all stretch our natural tendencies to some degree. There's going to be a foundation always. There are also varying degrees of each of those traits,

25:30right. So for example, both of us — we're both introverts, right? Yeah. So I would say naturally we tend to like to spend time alone, reflecting, thinking about things, and whatnot, right. But it doesn't mean that you wouldn't get up and speak in front of other people or do something like a podcast, which most people would associate with an extroverted skill. Yeah, I think we all have degrees. We all have our own kind of judgments when we hear those

25:59words, right. Yeah. Like I was saying earlier — what do people think when they think engineer? Or what do they think when they think construction industry? What does that mean? It's not just a hard hat and a hammer, right. There's a lot more to it. And some of the best salesmen I know are engineers, like from

26:19the engineering firms, for sure. And we're not making any general stereotypes here — we're just having a conversation about how we all kind of have those preconceived notions and stereotypical judgments. Exactly, yeah. It's interesting to talk about. Yeah, there are any number of roads we could travel down next in this conversation — rabbit holes we could go down. I'm sure there are some of those we could stumble across. But what do you think, though,

26:47about — one of the things that we talked about earlier is staying focused, knowing your business, knowing the path, kind of having that structure and your goals set. Because there's so much noise in the marketplace, and in construction there's so much hype sometimes and excitement. You start to hear about all the — whether it's private development, Ontario, Nova Scotia, Atlantic provinces — just different hot spots. And there's a lot of excitement around it, but if you

27:17don't know your niche and stick to it, it's so easy to get pulled astray and get lost and lose your focus. There's a country song — I can't remember who sings it — and the line in it says something like, I'm going to paraphrase it, if you don't stand for something, you'll fall for anything. And when you think of your business, no matter what industry or niche you're in, you really have to know what that identity is, so that

27:43way, when things run dry or there's a spell in the marketplace — a gap — especially in construction, you could go for periods with nothing, and then suddenly it's all raining cats and dogs and you've got an influx of everything that you wanted. You have to hold your ground, you have to know who you are as a company, and really stay focused on that niche. So, who's your ideal customer, your client — your avatar?

28:07Because not everybody — not all contractors are made for you, right. Not all subcontractors are made for you. There's culture fit — work and relationships. Just going to say: culture, I think, has a lot to do with it, and core values. Yeah, if those core values don't align, eventually it's just not going to work. You're eventually going to butt heads on a contract and then it becomes a bit dirty and litigious, possibly. There are a lot of things. But knowing

28:32who you are as a person, and then in your business professionally having that identity, will help you navigate. So think of it as like a lighthouse — and that lighthouse isn't moving anywhere. So if your identity as a company is — let's just use an example — I'm a vinyl window manufacturer focused on residential space and small multi-family complexes up to four storeys only. Now I've ruled out 90% of the market, so I've also saved time on chasing 90% of the things that would

29:03have ended up in nothing — chasing tenders for no reason, or scopes that I don't fully understand, or scopes I can't be fully competitive on. Know your niche, get really good at it, hone in on the processes, and then you'll build your margin that way. And that's a common thing, probably in any industry, for people that maybe don't have that clarity and focus. And then something comes along and it looks really big and shiny — maybe like a big private

29:30development here in Dartmouth or Halifax, and you're just starting out, and cladding, glazing, interiors, or something — and it's way outside your reach. Maybe you take it on hoping to get something out of it, but it doesn't work out and it's all over then. Yeah, right. There are lots of — it's a common tale in this industry. I'll give you a quick, kind of weird analogy. You've heard of Saxx underwear? Yeah, I have — I have some. Yeah, me too. Pretty comfortable stuff. They're pretty

30:00comfortable stuff. Good. Ballpark — I'm wearing some right now. There you go. Now we know something about each other. Saxx is obviously a well-known brand, right. There's a lot of marketing that's been put into it, and it's a good business. Now, let's say at the very start, for Saxx, somebody came along and said, hey, I've got this new brand of underwear — this is our market pitch: it's going to be super creative, we're going to get out there, we're going to disrupt, you know,

30:26we're going to expect two, three, four hundred percent growth year-over-year. Sounds pretty hot, right. And then what if I came to you and I said, listen, I've got this brand — it's been around for about 40 years, it's consistent, every year we do about a three or four percent increase with inflation, wherever the market goes. Pretty plain Jane, but it's there, it's consistent. Most people would take the hot item, right. And the hot item in this case — it's not a bad item or

30:55anything — it's Saxx. But the other item that's boring is Fruit of the Loom. Fruit of the Loom is not big sexy, but Fruit of the Loom prints money — cash flow, day in, day out, for its owners. And so in construction, with my team, for most of our companies and projects, we stick to what our niche is, and it's not always big sexy. We like going in to do the jobs and getting out and getting paid. Sure, would it be nice to say we did a

31:2291-storey tower in Toronto and put our name on it? Yeah, that'd be pretty cool. But I just read this morning that one's going through a highly litigious lawsuit to the tune of about $3 billion right now. And I don't know what the context is or what happened behind there, but don't always go chasing big sexy if it's outside of your realm. Now, if you're a highly sophisticated curtain wall manufacturer and you wanted that window contract, yeah,

31:49sure, maybe that's up your alley. But for us to look at and hear about a project coming up — you've got to make sure it's the right fit for you, your company, what you stand for, what you do, your scope, etc. Yeah, especially in that realm. Compared to other trades — when you get into building envelope, particularly glazing, cladding — especially these days with any number of crazy architectural panels out there and different installation methods — it's not something

32:15you may only install once and never install again. Yeah. The material costs are 50% or more, labour's 50%, and both are very high — whereas for a lot of trades it's kind of more 30/70. So big capital, big risk. Know who you are and really know what you want to do and stand for. So, do you want to talk a little bit about your goals and aim to acquire

32:46some building envelope companies here in Atlantic Canada, in case any are tuning in or listening — is that something you want to discuss? Yeah, absolutely. Currently we have a portfolio of construction and manufacturing companies that support construction out in BC and Alberta. And I do spend a fair bit of time here in Nova Scotia. My kids are born and raised here, and I'm going to be here for some time. It's a beautiful place to live, and I see

33:14all the growth and the attractiveness that continues to bring people here. And there's not going to be a slowdown in infrastructure. So I am looking for either companies to partner up with — in the form of equity of some sort — or a 100% buyout, if anybody's looking to retire or exit, or maybe you've had enough of the last few years — it's been tough. You've enjoyed your time in the industry and

33:42you're looking to move on — I'd be more than happy to discuss that with you. Okay, so any roofing, cladding — anything to do with whether it's supply and install, or maybe only install, maybe only supply — it doesn't matter, so long as there's a minimum revenue base. At least $5 million revenue — the larger the better. We'd like to welcome our newest partner here at ACP Media: the Freeman Group. Freeman Group Financial works closely with business owners, professionals, and

34:10retirees as their primary custodial wealth manager. The Freeman Group is targeting contractors and people in the construction industry as they move forward. The Freeman Group is a great choice for all your financial wealth management with a local touch. We look forward to having the Freeman Group on our podcast several times throughout the next 12 months with specific financial educational episodes. Soublière Trinity is Atlantic Canada's newest drywall and interiors contractor. Soublière Trinity is a joint effort between Trinity Energy Group, local Division 7 experts for over 17 years in Atlantic Canada, and Soublière

34:42Constructors, a highly reputable commercial interiors company based in Ottawa since 1986. Soublière Trinity has been performing work on commercial projects throughout Atlantic Canada this year, while planning for more growth in the years to come. We'd like to thank our partner Pivot Accounting. If you're a contractor or a small to medium-sized business owner in the construction industry and are looking to outsource your payroll, accounting services, and financial needs, Pivot Accounting is a great option. And that's something that — coming from your retail

35:11background in corporate with Walmart — talk a little bit about how, as an entrepreneur yourself and where you're at now, not everybody fits in the corporate world. It's great for some people — it's security, you're part of a well-established name or brand, and that's a really good spot for some people. Other people are just not going to last there. There's not going to be any retention with guys like yourself. Yeah, it's — and over the years

35:42there've been other retailers that I've worked for. I've been with IKEA, with Hudson's Bay, a couple of defunct ones like Linens 'n Things and Petco, Canadian Tire. And some of these didn't end well for me — traditionally, you know, I got fired from some of these jobs at the time. I'd go, well, what did I do wrong? Was I not the right fit? Did I not hit my performance? But again, you only know looking back — I just wasn't the right fit for that culture.

36:08Yeah. And ironically enough, I still keep in touch with most, if not all, of my former bosses and colleagues — especially through LinkedIn and Facebook these days. It's easy. I can't think of — that's a huge green flag for somebody, if you say, yeah, well, it didn't work out there, but I'm still in touch — not everybody can say that, right. That means that no matter what situation you come in and

36:32out of, you're leaving with relationships intact. It just maybe wasn't a good fit. But this is a short sidebar story. During the industrial engineering program, my first summer there, I had to go work in a factory, and it happened to be a window factory called Gienow. Gienow would eventually be bought up by Ply Gem. And it wouldn't be for like 20 years later that I'd have a conversation with one of my business development managers, and he

37:00says, no way — I actually ran that plant there in Calgary. I was your boss. I said, wow, that's nuts — it went full circle. Now he's a great guy. He retired a couple years ago. And I'm a big fan of going out there to look for people from other industries, and also veterans or recently retired folks, to come back to the industry, because they still have a lot to offer — for training, for guidance, for mentoring. Their network to go out and sell,

37:31their contacts, the Rolodex, right. They bring a lot of contacts with them. And you can't just, after you've been doing this for 20, 30, 40 years, just shut it off. You do miss the game as much as you say you want to retire, right. How much can you golf and how much can you play with your grandkids, right. So some of those positions are created on an ad hoc basis, some of them are part-time, some are

37:54purely commissioned. And this gentleman happened to be one of the VPs for PIM — that would have been my boss back then when I was doing my internship on the line. Yeah, so it's pretty interesting how life goes full circle. And trying to be open-minded to who you meet out there, because you never know. You could be pounding the hammer a thousand times, and it'll be the thousand-and-one time that everything

38:22hits and comes together. But if you give up way before that, then you never know. Yeah, I love that story, and it reminds me of times where — just to share a story on my end, which — you know, maybe I shouldn't; it's supposed to be about you. No, no. At times where you feel lost or you're not sure, you're in transition and things aren't working out, and you just continue to pound the pavement, so to speak. There's a guy I could

38:51have a coffee with this morning or this afternoon, just line up some conversations — not knowing that anything was going to come out of it, but just continue to meet people. And that takes work. And sometimes those are the people that come back around a couple years later. And I've seen it happen, like — I had no idea why I should even really be talking to this guy, does he even have the time, right? But just to

39:17continue to present yourself — to think, well, there's a reason that this person is here with me now and talking to me. And those conversations eventually sparked something that led to another seed a couple years down the road. So it just reminded me — I've always thought that there's a lot of power in just sitting down with somebody. Yeah, you never know. And at the very least, you may learn something from it — maybe something not to do, or something to do

39:45that you never thought of. Yeah, yeah. There was a point I was just thinking about, but it's sort of escaping my mind. See if I can gather it back. Yeah. So we talk about noise in the marketplace, and just prior to this you and I were talking about financial advice, right. Yes. And of course you tie in finances with business, because for a business to be viable you've got to be financially viable.

40:11Right. Yeah. I guess I know where I'm going with this: when you're out pounding the pavement and you don't know how much further you have to go, you can sort of look at it like when you're going to the gym, right. You look like you're in pretty good shape, so I imagine you have a good regimen, right. But that didn't just happen overnight, and you don't see that change just because you did one workout or two workouts or three

40:36workouts — it's over time. The other thing is, if you miss five workouts you can't just make up one workout in one full session and go five hours — it doesn't work that way either, right. So in business, there's a lot of consistency in small little practices that you have to do over and over and over again, before the results actually yield. And too many people I see give up long before that happens. So you've got to stay the course. And I think the other

41:01side is, because we're constantly bombarded with advice and media and information these days, you really have to weed through the noise in the marketplace. Yeah. If — let's say I wanted to become a marathon runner, right — our producer of the podcast. Like, our producer of the podcast, exactly. I would find somebody like him who's done it, who looks the role, who's clearly done the role, and seek his advice. Same if I wanted to become, you know, a bodybuilder, which will never

41:28happen. But you'd go to the gym and you'd find a trainer who looks the role and has done it. And in business and in finance it's tougher, because there are tons of advice coming from people who have not done it, who have not been there. And I find there are a lot of consultants in the world who are selling advice. And I don't think it's for the most part ill intent or anything — it's

41:52just what they know, right. But would you rather take advice from somebody who's read 50 books, or done 50 deals, or built 50 companies? So you can leave that with the audience to consider when you're taking advice from people — whether it's to grow your business or sell your business or anything else. No, it's a very good point. And one of the lines that we were talking about that I

42:23remember was something about the name and the face of the company being too intertwined with the owner of a small business. Do you want to elaborate on that? Yeah. I guess part of it is it could be a pride thing, or could be an ego thing, or could just be that over time this is naturally how that person has worked. If you become too associated with the name and face of your business, and you are integral to

42:47the operations of that business — like oftentimes in construction, small to medium-sized companies, the estimating is very important because that's the beginning of whether you're going to make or lose money, right off the bat. And it's held very closely with the owner — even project management, to some degrees, for small to medium-sized companies. And if you don't let go of that, you're not going to allow people to grow, you're not going to develop anybody. Like — micromanage? You mean — continue to micromanage, or even just not be able

43:14to trust others to run with that role and grow in it, right. It's hard for people when they've committed their whole life to get something off the ground to let go. Yeah. And in certain key roles — if you're not there, say you went on vacation or got sick or finally decided to retire — does the business truly go on, or did it all go out the window with you? Yeah. That's one side of it. And the other side is, you

43:37stunt creativity and growth for the people who work with you. Wages and stuff being all fair, having a positive environment and culture and all that — people yearn for growth and development. And it doesn't mean that they have to climb a ladder — could be laterally, could be just new skills to help them in their current situation. So being tied to the name and the face — I'm a big fan of being redundant, so my goal is to create no value to my

44:05company in the day-to-day. In fact, if I insert myself into some of the meetings that happen day-to-day, I actually take away from the team. Maybe certain things won't be discussed with full clarity or transparency, or they feel that because I'm in the room my authority overrides them — which I don't want. I don't want to erode other people's credibility — whether it's the business manager or the project managers or estimators or superintendent,

44:33right. If I'm going on a site, it's a quick PR visit — hey, take me for a walk through your site and show me what's going on. I'm not here to hound on anything. I'm not here to walk the four-foot section. There's no huge threat mentality when they see you on site once every six — whatever it is — because you're the expert on your site, not me. Yeah. Back to servant

44:54leadership, too, in a sense — because you're hiring these people because they're better at that than you. Really, at the end of the day, yes. That's a job where, yeah, maybe you could do it, maybe you could do it just as good, but you're hiring that person to fill that role because they're better at that than you. That's what I think a lot of people don't think about when it comes to — like, you said yourself you

45:16don't like the term employee. Yeah. But when you flip it on its head about being a servant leader and being someone who has the intuition to kind of put things in place — vision and those kind of things — then all you're doing is just enabling everybody. Once you fill those roles, you're just enabling them. Yeah, at the core of what you're doing, it's just enabling them. Exactly. And you're setting

45:42it up so that there is a succession plan and redundancy — so that if you do take off to Maui for a marathon that you wanted to be part of for a long time and trained for, you don't have to worry and stress that every little phone call needs to go through you to be vetted. You've got to allow people to make decisions. Yeah, that's definitely important to a growing company. 100%. What about hiring from other industries? I know we were talking about

46:09the obvious hot topic of labour shortage across the country and many other countries, and just in this industry with so much happening. And maybe in a shift over the next five to seven years, a lot of folks are retiring in upper management or skilled trades positions and on-site management positions, and just having to fill the gap. Maybe immigration is a big

46:41way to solve that. And obviously that's part of your background and your parents'. So maybe — that combined with hiring people from other industries, which you came from. Where maybe some people's thinking is, what are you doing hiring someone from a retail background for this position? That doesn't make any sense. Talk a little bit about those two items. Yeah, there are a lot of avenues you can go down

47:13with that. First, you've got to recognize that today's workforce is changing. So even if there was an abundance of labour and manpower out there, what was applicable or effective 10, 15, 20 years ago might not be effective today. I like some of the old-school superintendents, right — love to be on the slab for the first few hours, really brash, really get things done, set some targets, set some goals, follow up. I actually love that style. But for

47:40some of our workforce today, it doesn't resonate — right, wrong, or different, it doesn't matter, it just doesn't. So if you're after a result or a productivity goal, you've got to find ways to work differently. And the workforce is becoming more inclusive, diverse, etc. — not just in the traditional sense of gender promotion, etc., but more in just different personalities, different characters, different skill sets coming in. So you have to be open to

48:13that. And the other part is, with technology and AI coming in hot and heavy, a lot of that work is going to be alleviated. So I think that presents an opportunity to take soft skills that are transferable from other industries. If your company really prides itself on service, communication, type controls, the way that your job sites are run from a cleanup-standard, housekeeping point of view, etc. — let's say that was your thing, right.

48:47You've defined those as the skill sets you're going to hire for. Now you can go look for that — as opposed to shotgunning the old approach of posting the same posting that everybody else has, the same qualifications, same everything. That's very surface-level. So you need to dig a bit deeper, and that's how you build your company's culture. Yeah, and a lot goes into that too — like if you have an existing company of a certain nature, with a certain structure, and

49:11enough management staff and knowledge and background experience, where someone gets plugged in with the soft skills — it's not going to matter if they don't know every detail about a couple of these technical items, because there's plenty of support for that, right. When you're hiring, it's like: if the soft skills are there, if the attitude is there, if they can fill that side, then yeah, I'm not worried about the other stuff. Not everybody hires in that fashion or thinks that way,

49:37no. And so I was saying a few minutes ago that my goal is to make myself obsolete in my company. But one of the things I still to this day involve myself in is with new hires — could be a new apprentice or a new project manager. I'll take the time to meet them just to give them an introduction to the company, what we have going on, and the greater picture at hand. But this reminds me of a gentleman we

50:04hired a few days ago. A project manager who comes from a very strong background — a good engineering firm, ran big projects. And part of his training program that we mapped out was, for the first six weeks, he's on the tools with the guys. You're going to be jackhammering, you're going to be on the ground applying PMMA, but also kind of yukking it up — getting to know them, joking around. And by week two

50:29you'll just be laughing it up. Oh, exactly. And initially, when we had rolled out this part of our strategy, the guy said, well, that's very expensive to be putting a project manager on the tools — I've run projects before, why do I need to do this? I said, well, one is to get to know our company a little bit better and our industry, and how it works, the little nuances. But the other one — that's even more important — is I need you

50:54to forge these relationships with the guys on site — the foremen, the superintendents, the trades. Because when you become the project manager running the site, if you have that established relationship, that credibility, that respect — it's a lot easier to get things done than it is to just set some simple productivity targets and say, here's a critical path. So having that relationship goes a long way, because there will always be problems. It's construction, right. I don't think there's ever such a thing as a perfectly smooth, 100%

51:23smooth project. It's how we go about solving those issues. And it's such a people-oriented world that you need leaders to be able to rise up. You've got your own employees or associates or team members, you've got sub-trades, you've got sub-subs, you've got the generals, you've got the consultants, you've got the owners, you've got the bonding company, you've got the bank — you've got a lot of people to deal with. And a lot of different kinds of people, too. Yeah, a lot of different

51:54personalities from all walks of life. So to be able to deal with people well, just to navigate that, is more than a full-time job. And I think, to tie in what you just said — and I'm not saying that you're concerned about this — coming from an industry where it's still hard work, right. Guys have a certain level of respect — I'm saying guys, it's guys and girls — is the

52:24proper thing to say. When it comes to the statement you made — I'm building this company so I can be obsolete — not everybody has that same ability to think that way. But that's really the way it has to be done in order to continue a company at a certain size and carry forward. And so you might not have the understanding of the 50 guys on the site, or the 10, 20, 30 PMs and site supers, and they

52:55may be thinking in their heads every day, what does this guy do? Does that bother you sometimes? No, it doesn't — because it can't. But I think — well, I should just let you answer. It's a thought more than a question. Yeah, there's obviously a lot going on behind the scenes. And if I think back to when I was younger — I was working on the tools, and you'd get a site visit from some

53:25higher-up, and you'd always wonder. Some people are like, oh, it's just head office, it's just Toronto coming here, whatever. But I always viewed it as, man, I'm going to grab my clipboard, I'm going to go walk with this guy, I'm going to see if I can just poke in and listen. Often times they're like, no, you're not allowed on our walks or meetings. But it didn't matter, because I always thought it was a good opportunity to learn from the guys

53:48and, depending on who it was, some people you can find are very approachable, and some people just aren't — it's very authoritarian, very dictatorship. You know, climbing the ladder because you want the power and control. And that's always going to be like that. So you've got to set the ego aside. And I can tell you without a doubt that I know every name of

54:11every team member that works for me, and their wives' names. So there are very few things that I put emphasis on, because we're building a culture to empower other people. So we allow different team members and different divisions to focus on a few key things. For example, estimating — you can go down a whole host of rabbit holes and be constantly distracted or busy. But what it comes down to for the guys: there are really only two or three things for each. So for the

54:42estimating team — what is our current pipeline, the influx of requests, the strength of our request pipeline, and then the strength of the amount of tenders that are outstanding and our current active work in progress? Those are the three things you guys should be concerned about — don't worry about all the other things, those are distractions. And we apply that to every division of the company: finance, fabrication, project management. When it comes to myself and my general managers, there are really two

55:12things we're concerned about: net income and morale. Those are the two things that are near and dear to my heart. All the other stuff — that's what the team is designed to take care of, right. Each of us has to do our piece. Two pillars: if the morale is not good, well, what's the point? And if net income is not good, then what's the point? You have to be financially sustainable as a business to keep going. Of course.

55:36And the morale of the team — how do you build a team if you don't have engagement? My grandfather came from the military way back in the day, and when I was young he told me something. His advice was: when you're first starting out working — if you lead from the front and you don't have the trust yet, don't worry about the enemy shooting you — somebody on your team's going to shoot you in the back. If you lead from the back, you'll have no

56:01idea what's going on on the front line. You'll get misinformation, or no information, or whatever. You've got to work alongside your guys — lead alongside. Once you've established the trust and the credibility, now you can step back and take on various leadership stances — whether it's leading from the front because you want to prove a point and you're rallying the troops with a battle cry like William Wallace, or you've got to take a step back and be able to see the big picture and the broad

56:26strategy at hand. And knowing when to do either, being capable of doing either — exactly — and being able to be fluid between those three. You've got to have trust in the relationship. And trust is built on two core things: you have trust of character, in which your people will be able to look at you and know that you'll do the right thing, in their best interest and the company's best interest — to be responsible — and then trust of

56:55competency. You have to know your lane, your trade, your craft, so that you take care of your scope. You can have one or the other, but it wouldn't be enough. Like — my mother, okay. I trust her with my life. I'll leave my kids with her, I'll leave whatever. But would I trust my mom to run my business? No. So that's the competency thing. But you need both of them, depending on the situation, in order to have

57:22effectiveness and buy-in from people. Amen to that. Yeah. Importance of mentors — you've got some in Atlantic Canada yourself? Yes, I've got a couple of really good mentors. Won't mention names, but that's an important thing, right. You're not going to get where you've gotten, or further, without people who are willing to give you their time. So important. Yeah, people willing to give you their time — and they've done things. It's important. You've got to find the

57:50right mentor, right. Not everyone's a good fit — personality-wise, etc. But also, not everybody's in a giving mood, because it is time, right. So you have to find ways to reciprocate. It's not just all about work — maybe it's we enjoy some cigars together, we enjoy Scotch together, we go golfing together — all that. It's got to be reciprocated. But having a mentor who's been there, done

58:14that is going to help so much. It continues to help so much, because there's already sage wisdom in the mistakes they've made that I can now avoid. Yeah. It's like the youngest sibling — we all make the mistakes, and thinking of my younger sister here now — she gets to learn from all of them. She's just got it so easy; she's so much smarter than all of us. Yeah, no. So just having those mentors to guide and teach you — and I

58:43think back to ever since I was young, there's always somebody that made a difference in my life. Whether it was my football coach, Robert Stevenson, from John Barsby Secondary — hello, sir! I'll send this off to you, you can listen to it. We're talking back from 1997, and I still remember that man to this day and I still phone him for sage advice once in a while. Yeah. Wow. And it's really quite something. And there's been

59:07those people along the way — different mentors for different aspects in your life. But you've got to make sure that they're aligned with your goals. We don't need a mentor to teach us how to shotgun beer and drink and make sure that we're the last man standing at the NSLC, right. It's got to be aligned to our goals — unless that's your business and you're into that. Yeah, unless that's your business. So that's very important. And for me it's also

59:30important to have a mentorship culture within the company, too. Pairing up team members as part of their career development to mentor others also gives them a chance to learn more when they teach something back to somebody, and also to kind of cross-train people who normally wouldn't work together to touch base and spend time. So let's talk a little bit about immigration — bringing in workers, skilled workers in different capacities. What are your thoughts on that? And

60:05I'm going to assume that you see that as being a big factor — not going to say solving a labour shortage, but just with the opportunity, right. And I think that's something that needs to be capitalized on. For a lot of companies, it's almost a necessary thing — we have to. And outside of our industry, the food industry started it before we did, right. Places like Tim Hortons and Mary Brown's —

60:33and I love Mary Brown's, great place to eat. They've been able to fine-tune that model because they started early. I think in that industry, out of necessity, you tend to pay lower than other industries like construction. You can make a lot more money in construction, whether on the tools or in the office, than you can in most retail and hospitality businesses, for sure. So out of necessity, where are you going to find dishwashers, etc.? Now, for us, you've

60:59got baby boomers retiring. You've got this push since COVID that a lot of folks can work from home. Some have decided to become remote workers or lifestyle entrepreneurs or whatever it is — you can do a lot of things online now. And so that pool is shrinking as a whole. So naturally we can say, well, let's bring in more people. But hold on — you're also competing with the rest of the world. You're competing with Australia, you're competing with the

61:27US, you're competing with the UK. They all need people. So then the question becomes, well, why come to Nova Scotia, for example? It's got to be about the lifestyle — it's got to be the whole package. I had this conversation with one of our members of Parliament recently, and I said, salary and all that being aside — and giving them permanent residency to Canada is one thing — but we've got to sell on the whole

61:51package. Why come here? Look at the lifestyle you can have out here. The green space. How do you raise your kids, right? The environment. The urban-rural mix, too — you've experienced that yourself, and that's a big part of it. And it's got to be — and it is, to a degree — a world-class place with world-class venues, with good people. Good food doesn't hurt either,

62:12yeah. We can continue to build on it. And even the architecture of the buildings — that's a factor. Working here, from some provinces in Atlantic Canada, where the complexity of the jobs becomes a definite factor. There's a lot more freedom, I think, with the design or the funding — whether it's government funding or private developers at a certain level — where they're able to design buildings that you're just not going to

62:43see, or hadn't seen much before. Yeah. So we've got to have a package to attract people, because we need that in order to just sustain what we have, let alone grow it. All industries — you hear it all the time on the news — shortage of nurses, shortage of doctors. And for us, we hear it because we know it: shortage of tradesmen. And everything else. We've had restaurants that have had to close early in the last little while because

63:08of staff shortages, right. So we need people to come work, but we also need to do it in a methodical way where you integrate people into society. A holistic approach. That's right. I'm all for diverse and having various cultures here, but there's also a culture of Canada as a whole, and more importantly, in the Maritimes — it's got its own subculture, right. That's got to be promoted. You've got to integrate people in there; you can't have segments. So I think

63:42that's how we'll grow our society, grow our businesses, and our construction industry. But that's a big nut to take on — it requires not just industry but government support and other entities, etc. Why do buildings have vinyl windows on the 14th floor? I don't know — that's a question I don't understand here, so I thought maybe you might know. I don't know that answer. I know in other parts of Canada, beyond a

64:09certain floor — whether it's the fourth or sixth floor — you have to use metal systems that are more rigid. And especially if you have wider openings, you have window walls where it spans slab to slab, etc. But we have some of the harshest climate in Canada. Our NAFS calculator, if you punch it in, your wind load is higher. We have horizontal rain — that's famous. High moisture, yeah. So I just thought maybe the standards are different. I don't know, or

64:38maybe the practices are different, or interpreted differently. And are these buildings you're seeing — are they older buildings that were built here some time ago, or are these still being designed this way on new builds? It's still being designed this way, for cost reasons. I don't know if it's cost reasons or whatever influences result in that, but yeah. It's just a thought, a sidebar question. Yeah, yeah, for sure. Is there anything

65:05that we didn't touch on that you want to mention? I mean, we could talk for hours — you know, we've been talking a lot before we went on air and probably after. Oh yeah. But anything else, with you being here, that you want to get out there to our listeners — whether it's a topic in the industry, or the things you have going on with your partners? Well, first off,

65:36congratulations on one year of your podcast. That's a huge achievement — considering the statistics we've heard, that a lot of podcasts give up long before that. So keep going, keep doing what you're doing, and spreading the message. I think it's a great thing. And I think it's important for our listeners to tell other people about the podcast. Especially if you're in construction, let your

66:05peers know, let your colleagues know about the show. And if we can get more people talking about it — the problems we have facing us coming up, like labour shortage, it's bigger than any one of us can handle. And I look at the market from an abundance point of view — there's more than enough projects for everybody. You figure out your lane, you can go after it. There's more than enough work in business. And even competitors

66:31can benefit from each other. That's right — even competitors can benefit and help each other out on various things. So spread the word, and let's build this together, because in the end it's really our home we're building. Awesome. Amin, thank you so much for coming on — it's been a pleasure. Thank you, sir. Cheers. We'd like to thank our longtime sponsor Cook Insurance. Cook is your trusted insurance broker in Atlantic Canada for 50 years. The Cook team opens up

66:56opportunities for contractors by proactively managing the requirements of their bond facility. They expand levels of support and negotiate preferred rates, all while prioritizing ease of doing business. An NABOA partner since 2020, Cook is one of the largest construction brokers in Canada and offers national strength with a local touch. Whatever your insurance needs are, Cook has you covered. The team at the Atlantic Construction Podcast has been able to build a strong relationship with the folks at FCA. FCA is strongly invested in supporting the Atlantic construction

67:25marketplace and helping contractors to build their businesses. We highly recommend them.