How to Start a GC on Relationships Alone: Iron Maple's Ian Boyd & Rene Cox on Risk, P3s, and the Atlantic Canada Construction Market

0:03All right, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. As you can see in the window behind us, perfect backdrop here for the East Coast with a snowstorm currently happening. We have with us today Rene Cox and Ian — some experienced veterans with us — and with the big news on the block here in Atlantic Canada with Iron Maple Constructors. I'm sure it's not a strange name to anyone at this point. I think it's been about a year and a half since you guys — yeah, since I've

0:33opened the doors. So for you guys, veterans — you're back home, like in the homeland. I know Rene, you were involved here in your previous role anyway, and you were thinking central Canada or western Canada. What's it feel like to be back in the homeland doing what you do best? Plus you've got this new business that's growing so rapidly. It must be — I mean, it's extremely satisfying. You guys, how do you feel about it at

1:04this point? Do you want to take the first one there? I mean, I feel good, but you can go ahead. Yeah, back in the Maritimes, and particularly Nova Scotia for me — so I grew up here. That was a big driving factor for me in deciding to — I'll call it — resume partnering with Rene and Dirk and Jim, and getting back home. And this is where my family is, my friends are, this is where I've developed my

1:32and I would say probably where I'm most comfortable. So where were you, just for context? We were in Toronto. My family and I — I guess we had left in 2008 and kind of crisscrossed the country. We were in Alberta for a few years, and then we were in New Brunswick for probably three or four years, and then we were in Toronto for about seven years. So I have three boys, so it was a cross-country tour — an adventure.

2:00And I would say lots of great experience, and enjoyed the different parts of the country, but it was time for us to come home. And that was a big driving factor for the decision to start Iron Maple. And really, working with three partners that are our friends and are good people — that obviously made things a whole lot easier. How long have you known each other — for you and Rene that are

2:31here — and the other two partners, Dirk DeWinter and Jim Brennan? Have you known each other since childhood? Well, for me I'd say I got connected around 2000 — so '22. Yeah, it's kind of interesting how it all ties together. Jim and I are first cousins, so I've known Jim my whole life and he's known me my whole life. We're a little bit different in age. So I would have known Jim the whole

2:57period of time. But professionally, after university, the first opportunity I got was with Rito Construction, which Jim was one of the owners of. So that was my connection — I had an in, to a certain extent. And I say to most people: don't begrudge the fact that you have an in and can get your career started — just make the most of it. And that's kind of what happened. With Dirk, Dirk was friends with Jim at university

3:22of New Brunswick, so they had mutual — again, a little bit of a difference in age — and at the time they were kind of starting their careers, similar time frames. Dirk had started a business called Cardinal Construction in New Brunswick around 1993 as well, and that's when Rito Construction had started. Then eventually in 2004, the three of us became partners. The original partners in both Rito Construction and Cardinal Construction exited, and then we joined forces as Rito across both Nova Scotia and New Brunswick.

3:56And then the partnership was myself and Jim Brennan and Dirk DeWinter. And Rene — we hired Rene. In fact, I was the one that interviewed, and ultimately Jim and I hired him for the Nova Scotia operation. Like most of us, he started out as a project coordinator or in some capacity coming out of university, and then just gradually gets more and more experience. That's the same as what happened with Rene, but obviously working so

4:25closely together over the years — between three partners and then Rene being an integral part of our business at Rito Construction, and then subsequent to that with Bird Construction — we just became good friends and really respect each other in terms of our abilities. And we're all a little bit different; we all bring something different to the table. Yeah, and for me, I'd say my introduction — I finished university, I went to TUNS here in Halifax, graduated, and we've had a few guests that have

4:55been to TUNS. So why did they close? Well, I was — I think the year I graduated, '99, was the last year. My degree actually says Technical University of Nova Scotia, and then it had changed over to Dal. So after that, I did something some people do — I did the whirlwind trip around Europe and was traveling around there for a few months. And I guess life was going to

5:22start happening; the real world was about to set in. So I was in touch — back in those days, you weren't carrying around a smartphone. You were going to internet cafes and dialing up — you had a phone card or whatever to communicate. I was communicating back home with a few of the guys I went to school with, and one of them — shout out to him — Sean Brennan, who was Jim's nephew. And at the time

5:49Sean was working for Rito, and my question was, 'Guys, I'm coming back home soon — what's the job market look like?' And Sean said, 'Really, you should get in touch with Rito — I think it'd be a good fit for you, the personalities here would match well.' So that's kind of the lead-up to what Ian just described. Right, got to go with that. And where did you do your degree? Saint Francis Xavier? I did my civil engineering and then I ultimately

6:13transferred over to the University of New Brunswick. So, okay. There is a little bit of an internal competition when it comes to the best candidates, and typically they do come from UNB as well — we always have that. Yeah, so TUNS versus UNB — yeah, so there's conflict. Jim, Dirk, and I are all University of New Brunswick. Rene's outnumbered. When we can't decide, we put the sumo outfits on. I'd like to see that on a Friday afternoon. Yeah, it's good to touch on your journey in education too — a lot

6:44of people that are tuning in and listening, you know — our NSCC students, Dal students, SMU students, or from other provinces in Atlantic Canada, all across the country — just to hear guys like you talk about your personal journey and get a little snapshot inside what the industry's actually like once they get out of school. So yeah, and we are lucky to have great universities here. I think that's a big part of our growth strategy in business

7:10over the years — to really stay dialed in with those local universities and community colleges. And we've been fortunate to hire what we consider some of the best and the brightest, and that's what's helped our business in the past and probably will continue to do so. Whether it's TUNS, NSCC, NBCC, or UNB — the kids are very bright coming in there today, and we look to find the

7:33stars. And yeah, your degree is in civil, right? Yeah, exactly. We're all civil, I guess. Yeah. All structural? No — well, I think at the time you could specialize in structural but still consider it the civil engineering degree. So do you think that's the best — if you want the broadest background — to specialize in civil? It's hard to say. I think that's probably the most natural path. Yeah, I think that even when you consider

8:03the project management and some of the complementary courses you have in university — you have the ability to take some project management or estimating courses, and it seems to be more civil-oriented. Although I assume mechanical, electrical, or otherwise could have taken them too. It just seemed to be that when you work in general contracting, or even heavy civil construction, it tends to be the civil engineering background. But I

8:30would say we've — for instance, now we have at least one mechanical engineer in training, so somebody who's recently graduated that doesn't have their P.Eng. yet. And we would look and be very open to having electrical engineering and other backgrounds, because I think the more diverse backgrounds you have, the more complementary it is. I mean, think about it — the most sophisticated parts of buildings now are going to be the mechanical and

8:56systems, to a large degree — the controls. So I think that as you get into more sophisticated building types, having that diverse background on your team is quite helpful. Yeah, shout out to Vigilant Atlantic, a construction agency in Newfoundland — I think maybe one of the only ones on the East Coast. I was talking to Grant the other day and they have a couple of 20-30 year experienced mechanical estimators that have been in the industry for that

9:25long; they also have degrees specialized in that. And it's just a real niche for them, because it's so hard to narrow down with accuracy on that particular scope. So if you're hiring for retention, you want to hire students that are maybe mechanical, electrical — diversified — and make sure the knowledge base is widespread for brain power. And then you also need people with experience in those areas right away when you get off the ground with Iron Maple. Is there enough knowledge?

9:52Well, I think there's enough knowledge — and then of course it comes down to, as Rene talked about, the people that you can surround yourself with. We've been very fortunate to surround ourselves with very strong people through our career that have made our jobs easier. But to do so, you've got to have a mix of youth and a mix of experience and exuberance with the right attitude. And if we have that right mix, then that

10:16typically is success for us. Not only can you technically get your job done, but it also creates an atmosphere where you enjoy going to work every day, which is one of the big things. I'm a firm subscriber of: you spend a lot of time at work, you better enjoy what you do. And if you don't, then you probably should look for something else, because it's not worth it. You're sleeping eight hours a day — for half the time you're awake in your

10:42life, you're working. If you don't like it, you've got to change your job. You're not always going to like every aspect — yeah, there will always be aspects you don't like — but if the overarching feeling is you just don't like it, then you shouldn't do it. Life is too short, and that's cliché, but you should enjoy what you do and be passionate about what you do. And when we surround ourselves with not only knowledgeable people but technically strong people who have

11:07really good attitudes and really good personalities — team players — that is the magic that makes it not only successful but fun going to work every day. Yeah, I need to add — Rene, I rarely agree with your input. I'd like to get that on the record first. I would be considered the non-conformist in the group. But anyone watching, the referee is outside the camera's view. That is 100% — no, absolutely true. You know, I agree — you work a ton, so let's

11:42hope you enjoy it. And we're no different than any business — we want to make our work environment fun and enjoyable for our people. That's what drives us. It drives our growth a bit too, because you want to provide that experience for your people: to have fun and to grow in their careers. And that's sometimes as simple as that. That's what happens. Talk a little bit about — you finally get to a point where okay,

12:09we're gonna do this. What comes first, the chicken or the egg? Between the four partners, are you all estimating for the first few months just to get projects? Do you want to get something large right away? Are you going after some smaller stuff that's lower risk? Interesting question. Is it chaos? No, it's not chaos. Our skill sets are complementary to a certain degree, but pretty similar. We all come

12:37from a project management background as opposed to a pure estimating background, which is to some degree a different skill set. And even when you talk about 'do you enjoy what you do every day' — the estimators that estimate every day, I think they enjoy what they're doing. And it's a different skill set than project managers, who tend to be a little bit more interactive with what's going on across multiple projects. So it's a plus personality — I mean,

13:03extroverted, generally. So when you look at it, your question is really 'of the four partners, how do we divide and conquer?' And it's interesting — it probably came naturally, kind of geographically. Dirk is based in New Brunswick and has always operated to a large degree in New Brunswick. And New Brunswick is a market — I think our experience would tell us it tends to be a little smaller than it would be

13:30here in Nova Scotia, particularly in Halifax and the HRM region. It's just a smaller province, smaller population, and generally speaking just a smaller market. And in that, Dirk has the ability to operate in and out between estimating, project management, and even some of the site work. I would say that in Nova Scotia we've been more specialized. We joke about this — I think Rene and I were talking yesterday about how we divide and conquer here: I look after the operations side of

14:00things, and generally speaking new opportunities as well. And estimating — managing that part of the business — is generally with Rene. Rene somewhat questioned yesterday how he was the one ultimately responsible for the estimating side of things, because most people that know me would say — Rene's doing well, where's the emergency? Anyway, yeah, so we've gotten lots of work.

14:27Yeah, we're still trying to figure it out, but I think you just naturally do it. And Jim — Jim does have some other business interests, so he's not necessarily 100% of his time with us. But he's taken on particular projects — managing and overseeing them. So that's kind of how we did it. When we started, it became almost geographical, meaning I knew I was going to be in Nova Scotia, that's where I wanted to be, and that's where I

14:58was from. So between Rene and I, knowing that Jim wasn't going to be full time, it was kind of going to be between the three of us — certainly managing Nova Scotia, but largely between Rene and I. And I would say that it just naturally worked the same way it had at Rito: Dirk looked after New Brunswick to a large degree, with support as needed from Nova Scotia. Well, his network is there and his repertoire is — yeah, right, right. And to answer your question a

15:23little bit on what kind of work do you go for — yeah, and we all ended up doing elements of proposals. If we had to do takeoff, we did takeoff. The types of projects we went after, probably at the start, were what we would consider to be a little bit lower risk. So it might have been construction management, something that was more proposal-driven, where the client was looking for a little bit more design development support, and then turning

15:50that into an actual construction project. So kind of pre-construction into construction. For the most part, that was what we were looking for. And then as we started to hire some estimating support, we went into more design-builds, stipulated price, or fixed price. And it was interesting when you look back — we didn't obviously plan it this way; no one planned COVID. But when we started out, we knew we were going to trade a lot on our

16:16relationships and more private-type work — people that knew us from the past, who knew us. We knew we were not going to go out and respond to a $50 million hard-bid proposal that required a corporate resume — that just — why bother? We're five days old. So that wasn't going to happen. What are you going to show them? Yeah, so we could show them personal resumes, but as it turned

16:42out with COVID — as most people know, there was sort of a lull in the market where there wasn't a lot of that type of work anyway. So we ended up, kind of by default, doing a bunch of private work, and concurrently building a better corporate resume. And even though we're only a year and a half old now, we have secured some projects that did require a bit of a corporate resume. And inevitably, I think owners are looking at the corporate resume being relatively short, but their opinions are still a little skewed — they know that okay, there's some depth behind the bench. They recognize this as a startup, but there's already some fairly experienced personnel within the organization. So yeah,

17:09we've been — I say we've been lucky, or good planning, I don't know — but it's worked out okay for us. Probably being modest and lucky, I mean,

17:35this goes back to your point. And you're talking about the intangible side of people — as complex as construction gets, it's still about relationships. And really, your business is you — your reputation as people and as business people in the community — and that's what enabled you to do this. Really, yeah. And I would say that we also — when you have projects in which you are the project manager, we've all reverted

18:02back to what we love about the business, right? Yeah, so we started out in the business doing project management. 'No, I wish you were still doing it a year and a half later!' Yeah, right. And as you kind of grow, that becomes harder and harder to do to the same degree. Now, I would say that certainly Dirk and I — in fact all the partners, when I think about it — are all involved to some degree or another in the management of the projects. So we are spending a lot of

18:26face time with our clients — actually doing on-site and managing. Yeah, on-site, pre-construction, design development. Yeah, yeah. And even now, we have some support — whether it be a project manager, project coordinator, or a site super if the project's already going. I would say clients are seeing a lot of involvement from us. Part of that's just you and your own business — you've got to be invested in it. And we are. And I think that is part of the charm with Iron Maple: we can still say today that if you're going to hire us to do your job — if you hire me — I can say, 'Dan, you're going to see a lot of me.' And

18:53to some owners, that means something. In particular, in Atlantic Canada — we are relationship-based, I'd say, more so than some other provinces. You can debate that, but we all know around here that it runs like — for sure. People have trust in

19:18the person that's doing the job for them, and that means a lot. So yeah, that's helped us as well. On that note, Ian — just for a couple of minutes — what's it like here compared to Toronto, where you were for seven years? Yeah, a little bit different. My roles were different, so I was an executive with my former organization. I didn't spend as much time every day on projects. I spent

19:44more of my time on organizational things — delegating, yeah — and trying to plan for the future. Really, that's what it amounted to. Your role's a little bit different; it's not about the everyday so much at that point. It's about how do you position the business to be successful. And obviously you're in the market, so you do operate in that market. But I also was in the district office, and so you get some sense of

20:09the Toronto market. I would say my experience is it's a little bit more distant — maybe relationship isn't as important, and I say that only from the standpoint — I think there's no negative connotation. No, no, I just mean it's just larger; there are just more players in it. It's harder to maintain the same kind of relationships to the same degree. I think it is a very, very

20:37competitive market. Construction is always competitive — it's a high-volume, low-margin business. And the nature of the projects too — just the scale of the projects, and certainly the complexity would come into play. Now you're starting to see those here. If you look at Halifax, for example — the hospital going on here, that's going to be — that'll be over a billion dollars, the new hospital that's going to

21:03be built. And the Cape Breton hospital right now — and then Cape Breton right now, they have, and then the waterfront here, numerous projects going on that are large scale. Which is challenging. I don't think — it's challenging a bit from the technical standpoint, but the more challenging aspect, and I think this is true of every market right across Canada and probably across North America for sure, is that you have a certain amount of skilled labour. And so when you start to work on

21:27these mega projects that require that much talent, that's probably the biggest impediment to success — can you find enough of that talent? And that's a big problem. I think that's very much a problem in the Toronto market or the Ontario market. I think it's very much a problem here. I think knowing your skill set and knowing your limitations is probably as important as anything in our business. And sometimes you overstep those bounds and you pay the price for that,

21:55and that's a bit of the nature of it — and then you learn and revisit your approach to things. But I would say: not being prepared, or not having enough skill to execute — I think when you get to complexity, my experience would tell me that at one point I might have thought it was scalable to a certain degree, but it's not necessarily. You're going to reach a point where it's not scalable. Somebody can

22:19manage a $75 million job, but that doesn't mean they can manage a $350 million dollar job. And that may seem logical to anyone just hearing that, but the reality is that oftentimes that's what you're doing — you're scaling and saying, 'Okay, what are the attributes of this project that we've already done and been successful at, versus the opportunities we're going after that are bigger and perhaps put us in a different competitive league?' So different expectations, margin, and all those other things.

22:47But the reality is it's a high-risk business, and if you aren't prepared to manage those risks — or if you miscalculate whether your skill set is there — then probably that's an area where you're going to learn a lesson. And to a certain degree, our business is about learning lessons. It's just: how can you make those mistakes small and learn from them instead of making two or three big ones? Right, course correct. And I

23:11would say that's one of the advantages Iron Maple has — we now have four partners and other members of our team who, when you look at the experience level, we're talking about 25-30 years of experience, scaling not only just in Atlantic Canada but right across the country, different types of projects. So whether you get to the highest risk profile, or you take on a construction management

23:36project, we've seen all of it. And so we can, when we're looking at opportunities, really lean on our risk management element. I would say we learned a significant amount through the course of my career and in my former business. That would have been one of the major learnings: how do you approach this business with risk management in

24:02mind and still be successful — and recognize that you are dealing with a high-volume, low-margin business and there's very little room for error. Yeah, and that goes for subcontractors and general contractors alike. Yeah, I think for everything. Especially if you're going to self-perform, right? One of the major factors is self-performing. Is that on the agenda for you guys? I mean, you have a petroleum division, you do those in-house. Is there a plan to have more of a labour force within Iron Maple to

24:33self-perform, to the degree that makes sense? Yeah, I would say the goal — I think carpentry, commercial wall and ceiling, drywall. The industry's changing. Fifteen years ago, I think most GCs were subbing everything out. Everything is subbed out for the bulk. And if you rewind back 30 years, I would say it wasn't the case — it was maybe more a traditional general contractor where they did in-house work, and then

24:57as jobs got bigger and more complex, it ended up being these management firms — which is sort of how Rito was built: primarily subbing the bulk of their work. And I think today it's changed a bit, so we want to be an employer that attracts good people. I think we feel that can be an advantage for us — if we attract the right, good people, we want to have some self-performed work and

25:29be able to control our own destiny on that, and have good people doing that to service the jobs better in some cases. But it is a fine line, because our business will always be predominantly sub-trade driven. The relationships we have with our key suppliers and sub-trades — we recognize it always will be and is today. Always will be, yeah. You know, one of the most important things — talk a little more about that, because you talked about how the four of you and

25:55the relationship and your CV and your reputation and starting the business — how important that is, crucial, to gain the work, to get things off the ground. But then what about with the subs? Same thing there, right? Yeah, or even more so. They want to work for you guys. They want Iron Maple putting out tenders. Everyone wants to bid on those right away. They know you guys. To me, and I mean this

26:18generally — we could say thank you to the sub-trade community, because presumably they felt a connection to us. We had lots of relationships there, and that's helpful. It certainly doesn't go unnoticed. So we know we're getting — I would call it — the best pricing out there, because trades feel that we are new, we don't have a lot of baggage

26:43with us yet, and they know we have a decent reputation. So people want to work for us, they give us respectable and fair pricing, and that gets translated to our bids and to clients. And oftentimes that helps us win work. And we've been fortunate so far that we've had no bad runs with subs a year and a half in, and it's been going well. Yeah, and I think that

27:11part of it is reputational. We operated in this market before, all of us. And as you develop your relationships, there's ultimately a trust level — and that's the biggest thing for any relationship. So I think we have that with sub-trades. Because we operated individually, or as a group, before, you immediately had some level of trust with many of the subs. And I think they've reciprocated that — meaning they've given us great pricing,

27:40and I think we take it very seriously in terms of how we interact with and treat them, and make that relationship stronger — treat them as partners to the extent that we can on our projects. But also realize that for us, the biggest thing is productivity for everybody, right? Get in, get out, get your job done. If we can organize ourselves well, if we can run a good

28:12business — meaning we can invoice the client on time, the client pays on time, we have the ability to pay those subcontractors on time, and run organized, safe sites — if you can deliver those things — and you can't always deliver them, I'd like to say our goal is 100% of the time, but I know that's not always the case. We're continually trying to strive for that. But if you strive for that, and people know that

28:35you're striving for that, and to a large degree you are doing a lot of it in a positive fashion — then I think that's the lifeblood of it: our own people, having really good people on our team, and having really good relationships with the stakeholders generally, but particularly with subs. That is a recipe that in our past would have led to success, and we expect the same here at Iron Maple. Yeah, it's great to hear people like yourself talk about the subs and

29:03speak of them so highly, because so many of them work so hard out there and they're just such a huge part of building these cities. Oh yeah, absolutely. I don't know — I think there's something about the blue-collar psychology where you're never going to get the credit you deserve, but that's part of what you are, part of the gig. Yeah, yeah. And it's kind of like a hidden thing amongst the camaraderie. But just coming from a background like myself,

29:27just to know that they're not underappreciated — when it comes to people like yourself who are in this business, in this hierarchy where you're only as good as your subs — to hear you say that exactly means a lot to them. Yeah. You know, we need to organize our sites well. And even if we're doing a great job, if there's a particular sub that's having a rough time, that has a negative impact on

29:53our job and everybody on it. And we work hard to not kick them to the curb, but to say, 'Hey, look — how do we get through this? What do we got to do here? Because this isn't working.' I think you try to be firm but fair. And I always say to subs too: I don't ever expect perfection — probably the exact opposite. But all you can really hope for is

30:14that when I dial your number, you pick up the phone and you're there to work through a problem with us. And I'd expect an owner would think the same of us. We're not perfect, but we're gonna work with you, solve the issues, and get it done. Yeah. 'Can you sign that contract?' It's like — as you said — I'm going to be talking to this guy a lot. Yeah, somebody that I

30:36want to talk to — and then it's not a bad thing. Exactly. And our model — we came up with the tagline 'Construction Made Easy,' and that could mean different things to different people. But what it means to us — the overarching statement would be: you just want people to have a good experience when they work with you. So 'construction made easy' for a sub means: I don't have to fight for my money, it's not a real

30:59pain to get a change order approved, they're straightforward with me, they communicate well, I know where I stand. The same applies to an owner or an architect when they deal with us. So yeah, we just want people to feel like, 'That was a great experience working with Iron Maple.' That's kind of the idea behind the 'Construction Made Easy' tagline. And even for our own people — as you grow as a business, it's easy to layer on

31:25processes and bureaucracy, and that does come hand in hand as businesses grow. You need risk mitigation, fill out another form, let's add a form for that. So we're very sensitive to making sure our people aren't doing things that aren't beneficial to them or that don't add overall value. It's got to add value. And that's something — again, Ian's point earlier — we're not perfect at it, but it is embedded in our culture that we will work every day to try to

31:57make sure it's better tomorrow than it is today. Constantly working on it. So that's going to be important to us as we grow. You mentioned sub-trades — so now you've started, and you're a year and a half in, and you've got many projects of different kinds — whether it's a design-build or a long-term care facility — you've got all kinds of projects on the go. Is there any trade, any subs here now, that surprised you? Or you thought, 'Geez, it would be nice if there were more competition in that realm'? Not necessarily

32:23quality — probably not quality. I think — well, it's plenty. That's one of the drivers. If you can't get good sub-trade pricing or coverage, then ultimately as a general contractor you're wondering, 'Alright, how do I address this problem?' And typically that means you're going to look for a way to self-perform it, because you have to be able to do it.

32:48Otherwise your business suffers. So for us, I would say formwork right now is probably a real challenge. And you can see it — just look around. There's not enough trades; it's too busy. I think even when you come up with new trades, it probably really comes down to skilled labour. Skilled labour. I'm thinking: if someone's listening right now and they have the talent and

33:12network — well, maybe you guys will mention something — there's an opportunity there for someone that's entrepreneurially minded. But at the same time, you've got to have the skilled labour. And then how tight is the pricing already? Right. And I think that as it gets busier, there's probably a little bit more flex in the pricing model. If you're a contractor with a certain amount of capacity, your most valuable asset is your resources — meaning the people that

33:36can do the work. So if you only have a certain number of those resources and the market gets very heated, then there's going to be some elasticity in that pricing — meaning pricing is going to go up. And I think to a certain degree, that's happened in our marketplace for certain trades. But if you just look at how generally busy things are — formwork would be one for sure. And mechanical — like, there's always lots of bids, always a lot. So it depends

34:00on the complexity of the job. If you get to a higher level of complexity, it probably limits the number of competitors — subcontractors that can do it. And in the same way for glazing — maybe two. Yeah, I think that's probably true for glazing. Can you bring in out-of-province Canadian subs to do some of these jobs? Yeah, correct. There's nobody here locally that can do that complex, that size, that volume. Correct.

34:25So there are some elements of that. I don't know what your view is, but probably the ones we've seen the most — and it probably goes to size and complexity of job. As they get higher complexity — like formwork, the example you mentioned — that's probably not getting any easier in the next five years. There's seemingly no slowdown to what's going on, particularly in the city, relative to high-rise and

34:53apartment development. And we just talked about the billion-plus dollar hospital. So it'll be interesting to see what happens here in the next three or four years with respect to that trade discipline in particular. And it's even more challenging in Cape Breton right now with the amount of work that's going on. There's only a certain amount of capacity in Cape Breton as it was, and if you look at the size and sort of

35:19number of major projects going on there, I suspect — we haven't done a significant amount of work in Cape Breton — but I would suspect that's a challenge for anybody operating in that particular region, and will be for the coming years. Yeah. And that challenge is going to present opportunity for sure. Yeah, like, you just talked about — that's kind of why I asked the question — I think if someone's listening and they do have a background,

35:41maybe it'll help everybody out if there are people out there with that background thinking about doing something in that space. There are all kinds of barriers, but I'd say, just in that theme, if you're a young person out there thinking about where to go — university, college, or trade school — I'm sure this isn't going to come as a surprise, but there is a

36:01great living to be made in the trade world. And there is a seemingly unquenchable demand for good trades right now, and I expect it will be the case for the next 10 years at least. Good word — 'unquenchable.' Exactly. I came up with that one — good one! I couldn't spell it, but I could say it. Oh man. I was going to say, for all of you — your backgrounds are all a little bit different. I mean, you've got the camaraderie

36:33because you know each other. But with the diversification for a general contractor and a builder — whether it's CM, design-build, or lump-sum pricing — you've got kind of all the bases covered with all four of you. Is there anything you're leaning toward more than others as you move forward? Or is it just always going to be a bit of everything? I would say yeah, I would say

37:00my view on general contracting in particular in Atlantic Canada is you have to be diverse — not only in project size but in contract type and delivery model. One thing we certainly have going for us: we've seen all of that, relative to size and complexity and different contract models. And I always believed, and still do — this isn't a trade secret, I think it's good business practice — a good, healthy business would

37:32have a nice mix of that. So different CM delivery models, then higher risk profiles which have a little higher margin — should have a little higher margin — profiles with design-build or P3. I don't expect we'll do P3 work in the near term; it's just probably not in our risk profile right now — not saying we never would. But generally speaking, the P3 landscape in Canada has gotten — you'd agree, having seen it — it's

38:00gotten riskier, and I'd say the margins have gotten tighter. One might argue whether the juice is worth the squeeze. It's gotten quite risky, and the margins have gotten quite aggressive to the point where, if one thing goes wrong — and when you lose money on a P3, you don't lose $10,000 or $20,000. Those numbers are such a big multiple. The risk transfers are — I think you were highly

38:27involved with P3s in Toronto? Yes, yeah, yeah. And seeing them right across — I've seen the evolution. When I went out west, the original project I did was a P3. And at that time it was probably a little bit more of an immature market — the contract methodology wasn't vastly different, but probably not quite as significant in terms of risk transfers to the contractor. And as time evolved, the risk transfers just keep getting added on, and on, and on, to the

38:57contractor. And at some point you can't properly price or manage those risks. And when you can't properly price and manage risk, you probably shouldn't be doing it. And I think some of those learning lessons can be quite painful when you get into a situation where one doesn't go as well as you wanted. As Rene says: usually when a project goes bad, it continues to go bad. No different than a project when it goes

39:21well — it continues to go well. But certainly the risk transfers associated with P3s were such that at some point you're just like, the return for the risk we're taking on just isn't worth it. So let's go find a different way to make money in our business, because that's not going to be it anymore — whereas at one time in our former life, that was a significant and very successful part of our business. But as time evolved, the market matured,

39:49more risk profile to it, and then the returns weren't there, so you couldn't properly price them. Really. And for us, we spend a lot of time on something that doesn't sound like the sexiest thing to spend time on: the right opportunity. Which is an evaluation — is it the right client? Do we know something about the client? And technically, can we do the job? And ultimately, do we have the resources available to do the job? When we start to

40:17evaluate all those things, it really comes down to what — I would argue to a large degree, while project managers are really at the heart of things — really what we are: risk managers. And if you do that well, I think you'll be successful in your business. And it doesn't mean you're going to do it perfectly — there's never going to be a perfect scenario where you've got every i dotted and t crossed. That doesn't happen in our business. You

40:40better get comfortable with risk. Yeah, you've just got to recognize what you can manage and what you cannot. Yeah, I think it's interesting to talk to you guys with your vast experience, and the other partners involved as well. For people outside the industry — I mean, every industry is a tough industry, the business world — but when you have all these moving parts and so many dollars and so many different scopes involved, and just

41:06the vast complexity of everything — has there been a time in your career where there's just been a job that was so bad you almost broke? Or does that happen every three or six months? I just can't — has it? I'm just glad we can have a good laugh. There's always one of those. But I will say, I think if I look back at my history, we focused on going back to basic principles and tried back to the

41:36basics, tried to keep yourself out of the ditch. And there's been — you grind — there's been very few of them. But you know what, I'll say this: the ones that have been like what you described, for me anyway, my experience has been — I had a saying, and I think it holds true today — when things go really bad, in a crisis, you're talking about the relationship with the client on a job you're doing that is terrible, really bad. You can either

42:03seal the relationship or you can sever it. And if the client sees, 'My god, they are really hurting here, but they're not giving up — they're there. When I dial them up, I know it's not going well for them, it's not going well for their people. They're trying to work through it.' You know, you've got six months or a year or two left on it, you already know. But you still finish it — you start, you finish.

42:28What you start. And early on in my career, I remember there was one of those jobs. I won't say who the client was, but it was a job — and I saw that when I was probably only a year into my career. I wasn't even involved in the job; I was just working with the company at the time. And we did the right thing. It wasn't a phrase back then, but we

42:51sealed the relationship. And we've worked for that client since that day. Right? That's success, right? Yeah, that's a great story. The initial project — not successful, and it was significant. But there was a significant financial relationship that came out of it. Correct, and that money was probably made up over the course of time. Yeah, yeah. And to a certain degree, I think what happened there was just the level of trust — okay, as bad as that got, he didn't run. But it's like: sometimes in war, there's no good option. Yeah, so

43:21as you said, we did the right thing. Was it the only good option? It's good — as they say, everybody has a plan until they get punched in the face. Yeah, it wasn't quite like that, or maybe everything was — everybody has a plan until you get punched in the face in the boxing ring. Yeah, and maybe that job was a bit like that. But yeah, we got

43:50punched in the face early. I mean, in our business, if you had 100% of your jobs do what you wanted them to do financially, you probably wouldn't be in business, because it means you're not bidding aggressively enough. It's the nature of our business that you're going to have some that aren't going to go as well as others. And I think that people have to have an understanding of that in management and on all fronts, because you've got to keep people

44:17working. Yeah, and then you've got to take some at a lower margin — you're not going to make your target percentage on everything. No, no. And some of it is just a calculation: do I need some work here in the foreseeable future that's kind of short duration, perhaps with a client that we know, but it's a little bit lower margin? But I know it's very, very predictable — I know we're going to get in, get out,

44:38and it's going to be four months and I'm in a different position in four months. Sometimes you make those decisions. And in other times you make a decision and you think it's going to be a really, really good job, and for whatever reason it doesn't turn out that way — you just don't meet your expectations. Sometimes you can't really put your finger on why. It could be a thousand things, a whole host of things. Yeah, and there are

45:00other jobs where you're really concerned going in — either it's a higher-risk job or just really technically challenging — and for whatever reason, when you go into it, it turns out really, really well. So in our business I think that's really hard to predict. That's why I think it's so important just to be consistent in how you approach your work, regardless — and make sure you're trying to match skill sets with the type of work that you have. If you can do that, I think

45:24you're putting yourself in a position where you can succeed. I'm soaking up so much wisdom here — that's awesome. I am too — it's just like every day in the office. You're a lucky man. Yeah, yeah. He's very fortunate. I was at two CANS speaker series events. One was a couple of months ago — Rene, you spoke at it here in the city; I think it was at the Old Triangle. And then the other one was like three years ago. Both times I've been,

45:52you were the speaker. You think they could mix it up a little? I think I'm the only one that did it twice. My takeaway was — they obviously really got their money's worth to have me twice. Have me — I shouldn't say hire. Yeah, don't be too hard on yourself. Just to prove that I was listening though: I remember you talking, four years ago at the speaker series event, about when Rito merged with Bird and

46:19that whole scenario and the journey you took with them. And you talked about — I remember thinking, 'I wonder what points he's going to bring up. How does that happen at that level when a company merges?' And you talked about culture. Yeah, yeah. And it was all about culture. You just said: well, they came here and did a job, and they had the same mentality. Yeah, it turned out to be a

46:45really great fit. The two companies had very similar cultures. And maybe a little bit to Ian's point on us as partners — we didn't have dissimilar cultures; the differences sort of played off one another, so the strengths and weaknesses worked well. And I think at that time there was no interest in sort of what I'd say 'changing the Rito culture' — in other words, you guys

47:11are seemingly doing a good job here, we want you to do more of that. Yeah. And I think in any acquisition, that would be the overarching goal for most companies doing something like that. Doesn't always work out though — sometimes people will say that, and what they really mean is different. But where I was going with that is: when you're coming from a background of engineering and the whole technical side of things that's involved in this business — for you,

47:34how do you consciously — and what concrete steps can you take — to build culture in Iron Maple? Is it just a reflection of who you guys are as people, and you're the leaders, and that's what people are going to be shaped by? Or how can a business consciously build that culture as a builder? Because I think it's a psychology: people need to feel part of something, right? Maslow's hierarchy — type of thing. And I don't know if it's so much conscious as it is just

48:00subconscious. That would maybe be my initial reaction. I think culture is sort of — cultures evolve and are created. And no question, they're going to be driven by the leaders in the business. I don't mean that as us as partners specifically; I mean us and our leadership group that we surround ourselves with. We're going to lead by example. And I think that ultimately is what sort of drives the culture. And

48:30I think you can help steer the course of it by being disciplined about 'this is what we want to try to be, this is who we are.' So when I say 'Construction Made Easy' — those things are important too — we would regularly say, 'Look, what does that mean? What does that mean to me as an owner?' And constantly reinforce that with our staff, because a new hire tomorrow doesn't necessarily know what that tag-

48:56line means — what the heck does that mean? So I think it's important for us to not lose sight of the fact that we've got to tell those stories. Maybe that's it — tell the stories, tell the stories about where we come from. And those stories will inadvertently sort of highlight what's important to us as owners, what our values are. You know, we don't step on people to solve a problem — we work with them. And

49:21we try to lift them up. Things like that. So I think that probably helps. But I don't know — and I think the most important thing I learned, and I probably learned it from Jim Brennan and John Fernando when they hired me at Rito Construction, was just: be genuine. You've got to be who you are. So we're not always going to be the same. How I manage is going to be different

49:44from how Rene manages — I'm better, no question. And it's going to be different from how Jim or Dirk does. Yeah. But I would say we share the same core values. Core values, yeah. I would say that is absolutely true. And being genuine means that's the way you operate every day — because too often, whether it's a tagline or a marketing element that we're working on, we don't want anything associated with

50:16us to be not necessarily true about who we are and how we operate. So 'Construction Made Easy' for us — we believe it. And if we believe it, we should be acting on it every day, right? And our people should see that. Yeah, it doesn't mean, again, that we're doing it 100% correct on day one. It means we have the goal to continually get better and make our business better — not only for our own people, but for subcontractors who work with us, or

50:45consultants or owners. So I think you've got to be genuine to yourself — meaning how you're going to manage and what's important to you. And if you are as leaders, then I think that ultimately is reflected. But I do think that if you had four partners with different core values, that would be a much more mixed and harder situation. And I suspect what would happen is you'd have a different culture

51:11in our office here in Nova Scotia than you necessarily would in New Brunswick. Yes, right. So I think — be genuine. And certainly, having four partners who know each other so well and share core values and have kind of been brought up in this business collectively together — I think that makes it easier. And I think cultures are somewhat regional, right? We've operated as a national

51:40company. Let's say you're working with a consultant firm in Atlantic Canada and that same firm with the same banner in Toronto, and you're like, 'Wow, that was like working with a firm from a different planet.' And yeah, it's really because it is just the people, right? They just operate a little differently for sure. Can we talk a little bit, quickly, about the Cunard? I know it's a milestone project here in the

52:03waterfront in Halifax, and probably the first one of that size and complexity for Iron Maple. And it happens a lot in the city now with the larger projects — you see it happening with Westwood and Bird down at Richmond Yards and a few different areas. Yeah, yeah. So you know, these projects — is it just that these projects are of that nature, the size? Or is it the large developers who do build on their own, who are coming to general

52:30contractors and saying, 'Look, this is complex enough that we'd like someone else to take care of the construction portion'? And then how does that — for people outside the industry — what does it mean when you're in a construction management role on a large development project like the Cunard on the waterfront here? How does that come about? A little bit of the process — how you start talking with Southwest and the first steps. I'll take that. I would say

53:00for us — people know we're involved with the Cunard. So I'd say hats off to Jim Spatz and Gordon Lang and Ben Young — at the time, and this is when we were only a month old, they were looking for a construction partner to — I'll just use the term — help them out a bit, provide a little bit of maybe leadership and consulting advice, and maybe to a certain degree a different perspective. Now,

53:31I'm kind of speaking for them, so I'll be careful with my words. But I think they ultimately had — they have a very strong construction team, as many people watching this would know. So Southwest Construction, and they were really looking for a firm to complement that. And I guess the question is: how does that look for me? It just looks like a conversation with them — 'How can we help?' — and then you really

54:00sit back and listen. And they say, 'Here's kind of where our challenges are, this is what we're doing, this is what we're doing well, this is where we think we've got room for improvement.' And in its simplest form it really amounts to a decent conversation where you do more listening than talking, right? And it gives you an opportunity to go back to them and say, 'Well, I think I've got some ideas. Here's how we might be able

54:25to help you.' And that's going to look different for Southwest Properties than it does for Scott McRae or than it does for Danny Cheddar. But I think what's happening here is some of these jobs have become so large that a traditional developer-builder probably feels like they need a little bit more expertise behind them. Don't get me wrong — all these individuals I mentioned are more than capable of building these jobs for the most part on their own. But I think the jobs have increased in size and volume, and they are I

55:05think, in the same light, trying to do more than one job at a time. So their own resources are stretched, and they're really looking for an avenue to provide some growth potential to their ability to develop — without taking on a huge construction team on their own. So it truly is sort of a partnership that allows them to expand their ability to build, and allows us to get involved with some pretty cool projects. Yes, you know, and that is a

55:37little bit different. I think it becomes more of like an integrated team. These are sophisticated owners, right? Sophisticated in the sense that they are sophisticated buyers of construction services — they have a construction team. So technically they're very sound and understand what they're getting into. I think it becomes: how can you complement it? And it's probably a little bit different than — if you asked me 10 years ago, would you do an integrated team with a developer, and and

56:06you'd probably have to pause and think about how that would work, and contractually how does that work. But at the end of the day, I think in large degree — Rene's done it here, probably more so, both in our past life and in our current form with Iron Maple — we've found ways to service clients that are a little bit different than traditional general contracting. So it isn't necessarily the complete

56:32full team involved with those projects. But actually, it's the key elements of what we can provide them that can complement what they already have. And then all of a sudden you have kind of an integrated team that gets the job done. So it's a little bit different. Like anything, you have to have a good relationship and you've got to figure out how that all works. But generally speaking, if you're willing partners — or they have a need and you have a means to

56:58address that need — then you usually come to an agreement in some form. And that's been a very good experience for us. They're a very good client. And as I said, they're really, really knowledgeable. And when you can get involved with a project like the Cunard, you're pretty proud to do so — especially when you're only a month or two months into your existence, right? Because we would have broken ground there pretty much a couple of months after we opened. Yeah, yeah, correct.

57:22For me, that's been some real key highlights — to have an opportunity to get to know and work with someone like Scott McRae or Danny Cheddar or Jim Spatz and his team. These guys — and people know this — they're very smart individuals. They really are true visionaries. And if you had any time to spend with them and sort of listen to them — not just what they're up to day to day,

57:50but the actual projects they've built — it is pretty special. It's not just bricks and mortar and a place for people to stay. They're creating communities; they're creating a fabric to society in the city. And it's not just another rental place — it's the furthest thing from that. If you've seen the renderings — oh, no, that's not what it is! So it's neat to spend a few minutes

58:19inside those guys' heads, to see what they're trying to do. Yeah. When you think about it, Rene's got an even closer connection to the Cunard — just in the fact that when we were at Rito, Rene was one of the team members that was building Bishop's Landing when we were doing that for Southwest Properties. And yeah, as you evolve your career, now he's involved with the Cunard. And it's a funny story — we did a

58:43little photo shoot just for some branding purposes, and I think you saw it — you had a headshot of us on the desk there. That's actually looking at the Cunard site. Oh, no one would know that. The backdrop to their group photos — those headshots — they're standing on the dock down there looking at — yeah, the backdrop is where the Cunard is today. The Cunard wasn't there then, but it's obviously that location. Yeah, that's awesome.

59:08Well, I wanted to ask some specific questions about the Cunard. With a project of that size, and since both of you are in Nova Scotia with lots of other things going on too — is that where you spend a lot of your brain power and a lot of your time, Rene or Ian? You spend a lot of time on that project specifically? It's been a year now. Yeah, it's probably going to be another — what, three years or so? What's

59:29the timeline? I think the Cunard right now — yeah, you're going to test me on my recollection of the schedule, and you can't hold me to this — but I would say it's probably another two and a half years out, give or take. Two to two and a half right now.

59:47We have a key guy on our staff who is the main heavy lifter on that job — his name is Jim Mullen. Jim would spend the majority of his time working with Southwest on that file, and I'm sort of in and out on an as-needed basis, and Ian would be even less so. So that's kind of the gist of how we spend our time with respect to that. Yeah, so

60:14I had looked through the drawings because we're looking at it for other reasons, but that's a ton of concrete. Yeah, yeah. Who's doing the concrete down there? 2020 — there's our formwork lead, but 2020 is down there. Yeah, yeah. It's a beast of a building. It is a beast. And it's — when you think about the waterfront, even this coming summer — with the addition of

60:46Queen's Marque down on the boardwalk here. And now you add the Cunard to that, and the art gallery. So you picture the Halifax boardwalk in five years from now — the landscape is completely changed. The Dartmouth side too. Yeah, yeah. And even restaurants that are going to be down on the boardwalk alone — it's going to be, to me, it's becoming a destination. Like, people will say, 'I've got to go to Halifax and check the downtown out.'

61:17Yeah, yeah. Anything particularly about the Cunard — aside from that — like the finishes or about the building that you find really neat or that makes you excited to work on? I think for me, just anytime you have an opportunity to be involved with what I'd call a very high-end — almost arguably the highest-end project in the city you're living in —

61:51is something to be proud of. So no question — I'm not telling any trade secrets here — Southwest doesn't have a history of producing mediocre products. They tend to produce distinctive architecture — very well thought through, very tasteful. And they get very high reviews with respect to their tenants, whether rental or condos. So that's for me — I would just generalize it in that.

62:24Sure, yeah. What was it like, your time at the Canadian Construction Association? You talked a little bit about what it was like being part of that while you were in Toronto. Yeah, it was good. It was made up of a large board — at the time, probably about 80 people across the country. And they've since gotten it a little bit more efficient, a little bit more streamlined. But I was what they called an

62:49at-large board member. So it wasn't specific to a certain construction association or region — I was on the board as just an individual with experience who wanted to contribute. Lots of good people, really good people, with lots of knowledge. And it had, I would call it, almost two parts to it. There were the construction associations and the membership associated with that — the representatives for the construction

63:19associations right across the country. So they had a little bit of a different perspective, but more of a — I would consider it almost a holistic perspective, if you include the sub-trade community, supplier community, and the general contractors that would all be involved in local construction associations like CANS. So they would have representatives there with a pretty wide variety of thought processes and experiences within that general membership. And then you had general contractors and some subcontractors that were

63:46involved — maybe at-large, meaning just experienced industry people. So it was rewarding in the sense that you get to meet a lot of interesting individuals, a lot of people passionate about the construction industry. And I would say by and large my experience with them is: people are pretty smart at what they do and are willing to share and give back to the industry. Which I thought was really what interested me. And I would say it was also to a certain degree —

64:14how it evolved, meaning how it made decisions and how it moved — was almost too slow at the time. It was such a large board. And that's why I say they really took another look and said, 'Okay, how can we streamline this and be a little bit more nimble to what the industry needs?' And they did that in the last two years. And that kind of

64:39coincided with my time to make a transition in my own career, so I stepped away from the board itself. I'd love to get back involved with it, yeah, and contribute again. Whether that happens — even CANS would be something I'd certainly get back to. The industry — it's an important hub here. I mean, even contractors are getting their drawings printed there for some of the smaller jobs. Yeah, it's always been — and if you think about training and

65:04everything — in our former life we were a national company with all kinds of resources, including legal. And when you think about it now, we're at Iron Maple. Yes, the four partners have lots of experience, but you certainly do learn to appreciate more the construction associations and what they offer to smaller businesses in this industry — because you don't have the depth of resources. But the

65:30construction associations can provide some of that support, and they do. A really well-run construction association — and we're taking advantage of it from a training perspective too. They offer great training for your people. Some of those things we would have done in-house as a larger organization; now you're using the construction associations. And I think, like, CANS is doing a fabulous job — really, really good people who are trying to help you every

66:01time you call — they're trying to figure out a way they can help, can they help you be successful. So I have a lot of time for that team over there, and Duncan's done a very good job with it. So I would say, for those listening, if they're smaller and thinking about it — just do it. Because yeah, for sure. Like Ian's point: I'd say the smaller you are, the more you would benefit and the more help you would see that

66:27they would provide for you. As you get smaller, they provide even more, to a certain degree. If you can get involved, all the better in my mind. The opportunities between networking and just the ability to give your perspective, and help shape and influence what's happening there in a positive way — to me that's what it's all about. Those things operate by having great staff, which they do — for instance, the Construction Association of Nova

66:56Scotia. But you also have to have good industry participants and participation. If you do, I think you've got the opportunity to have a really high-functioning construction association, you know. And that's the same with the Canadian Construction Association. And they really do — when you look at it — I think they've done a very, very good job, and in sort of the evolution, especially in the last few years, to make it a little bit more streamlined and be a little bit more nimble and respond to what's what's

67:23happening in our industry. And again, they have a really good relationship between themselves and the local, dispersed construction associations — what the Canadian Construction Association tackles is more national-level interests, and if there's more geographic focus, that's more the localized construction association. So I think this system works. And I believe in it — you should give back if you can, and help.

67:56I think it's rewarding, not only for yourself, but something that we as individuals in the industry should be doing. Yeah. Rene, you mentioned when you were speaking a couple of months ago that you guys have been doing a lot of hiring — obviously you're up to 70 or 80 people, something around there — whether it's PMs or estimators. Just wondering: are you still looking for people? For people listening that are maybe looking for estimating or project management positions, is there still room there? Yeah, I mean, I don't think

68:26we'll ever stop looking. Yeah, businesses — it's the cliché, the war on talent. So we're always going to be wanting to meet the best out there and trying to find a spot for them in our culture and create an opportunity for them. So yeah,

68:51yeah, we are still — I kind of lost track a little bit, but yeah, we're probably over 80 now, maybe close to 90. And that's between the craft labour force we talked about building earlier and management staff and everything else. But it's been a lot — a year and a half, putting that many people into the machine, is a lot. So there are growing pains with that. And you would ask — I guess

69:20Ian touched on it too — one of my memories of the very early days, one of the things that almost made you a little uneasy, is that you have such a great support structure when you're in a mature organization. And you go to: 'Okay, now it's the four of us. Who's putting paper in the photocopier?' I don't know — there's no one for that. That's right! He's doing okay. Yeah, no, you know what I mean though —

69:47there's no — you go from having such a huge support network and structure to: whatever's happening, you're doing it. I can remember screwing desks together in the office. But you know, so it's — yeah, it's interesting to make that transition. But to a certain degree, exhilarating — you're excited about it, excited about the opportunity. And I think we've been really

70:19really pleased with the attention and the people that have applied to us. And we've been able to hire some great people. Our team — I feel really, really fortunate that we've been able to build the team the way we have, and at the talent level that we have. That must have been one of your biggest concerns too — are we going to be

70:46able to put together enough talent? Right, as far as employees go. And I think — you know, COVID was on us then. I just remember we were talking, and we said, 'You know what, we've got to hope that good people will take notice and be interested.' And I think we had a reasonable level of confidence that we would attract good talent, and

71:14Ian's point — yeah, I couldn't echo his statements more. I couldn't be happier with the team we've built. I think everybody's having lots of fun and really still learning to work together as a group, and that's part of the charm. Yeah, it's got to be tough to ride that roller coaster when there are that many new employees all at once, within a short amount of time. Yeah. Like you said, the relationships — are they

71:42probably happening just organically? Yeah, to a certain degree organically. As we needed a certain skill set, we were able to find it. And we were able to build the team organically. Experience would tell you: don't wait until it's too late. But it's hard as a new business, meaning you're balancing how much your overhead costs are

72:10with how much revenue you've got coming in. So you've got to pick the times when you're going to hire people, but you've got to take a leap of faith that you're going to be successful. And at times you're hiring people before you need them — but that's worked out for us. And I would say that's a philosophy we've had for some time: if you find talent, you're going to find a place for them in your organization. And you

72:32shouldn't be afraid to hire them. So generally speaking, we haven't been — somewhat balancing the fact that you've got to have work for them, obviously — or at least some imminency to the work; it's got to be coming along relatively soon. I think one of the aspects of our business that kind of came to us — it was a little by fluke; we didn't start Iron Maple with a plan to do it — but we have a petroleum division

72:57that looks after fuel delivery systems, underground tank, above-ground tank storage and distribution. And we were fortunate enough to get a pretty key individual that expressed an interest in coming to join our team. His name is Troy — Troy Angie — and that's been a great experience for us. And again, we talked a little bit about diversification — it's a different aspect of the business that we arguably knew nothing about. I mean, yeah, we know bricks

73:28and mortar, how to build stuff. But it's quite specialized. And that's been nice. The decision to do that was just because someone was there who had the knowledge. Yeah. Troy had expressed an interest to change career paths, and he had an interest in what we were about. And like anything, yeah, so we met and agreed that he'd be a nice fit and a nice addition to our team. And

73:55he's grown that part of the business for us. And it's been interesting to see — it's a different aspect to construction that we're not used to. It's just kind of cool to be around. So there are a couple of tilt-up buildings in New Brunswick? Or were those in Nova Scotia? Both in Nova Scotia, okay. So we've done — we just finished off our second recently. And that seems to be an area where we have opportunity — an element you can self-perform — and we have the expertise to do it. And it's a tight market to price in, with EllisDon and Lindsay kind of being — yeah, they're really, really experienced, obviously. Yeah. Without

74:24restating the obvious. But I think we did it at Rito, so we have lots of our own historical experience. And provided you have the crew that can do it — and it's a tight, tight market to price in, with EllisDon and Lindsay kind of being — yeah, they're really, really experienced, obviously. Yeah. Without

74:50restating the obvious. But I think we did it at Rito. And to a certain degree we have the key elements of the crew and we build the crew around that — we've been happy with that. Happy with our ability to execute it and happy with the product at the end of the day. And yeah, so that's just one of those things you're pretty confident you can do, but until you do it — and we just got a third one today! It's not common knowledge yet. But

75:14yeah, so confidential, confidential. I can't talk about that. What about the LTC — the long-term care job you guys are doing right now? I thought that's not in my home base — another one? No, we have one — actually, it's not a long-term care. If it's the same one I think you're talking about, we have a retirement living facility. Right. So that's in Bridgewater, right? And that's for a client of ours that we've been working on in pre-construction, actually for quite some time now.

75:37So we're getting close — we've actually started on site there in Bridgewater. And they have plans to do multiple builds. So for us, that's certainly an opportunity. And again, it's one of those where when you think about it, that was probably a month into our existence that we were able to secure it — just through existing relationships, individuals that knew us as people who had worked with them in the past. And

76:03ultimately we got the opportunity, they asked us to submit on that, we did, we were successful, and it's been going well so far. It's been a little bit extended in duration in terms of pre-construction, but part of that's just driven by the marketplace — just the volatility within the pricing market. And we've got the base building very close. Also, a long-term care, a horse barn, and a lobster storage facility — we're covering all species! Lots of East Coast, lots of diversity.

76:31That's what I mean — not going to see that elsewhere. What about the name? A lot of attention — I've heard a few people make comments, just that the brand really stuck with them. Who's the genius, the mastermind behind the branding? We talked earlier that we're all civil engineers, and I guess typically engineers would not be brushed with the most creative gene in the world. So

77:04yeah, we were — it was evident early on we were very terrible at brainstorming for names. When I say that, everyone would come back with a name and it was like crickets on the phone. Or worse — it wasn't crickets, it was quite critical. Yeah. But we'd say something and — no, no. So we just talked about different things, and then I think

77:29it was Jim who said, 'Guys, what about a species of tree?' And there was kind of a pause, and I think we said, 'Yeah, let's try to think about that.' We laughed — we were on a call and we hung up, came back, and I guess everyone had done some research with a whole list of tree species. And interestingly enough, maple was — it was very evident. It was a different feel on the call, like

77:57everyone's like, 'Maple's kind of neat.' And it was a relatively short time — like minutes — before we were thinking 'Maple Construction.' I could see that; it has a nice ring. Better than Birch Construction. So we said, 'Yeah, let's try that.' And then you phone a lawyer and say, 'Can you check this and see if we can use this?' And lo and behold, it came back and he said, 'No, no, you can't.' Because — can you imagine, in Canada,

78:30getting 'Maple'? Yeah, so maple leaf, maple syrup, it's on the flag and everything. So you needed a descriptor. Exactly, you needed a descriptor. And so we had to kind of — it didn't mean starting over — well, okay, we're almost as bad at the descriptors. But one of the other words we looked at was ironwood, and then we said, 'What about Iron Maple?' And we started building on that — is that an exotic wood, iron

79:02maple? Where's that? Ironwood is just — it is an exotic type of wood, yeah. And so we just thought, 'Iron Maple.' And we sort of — iron ore, maple — you know, it couldn't be more Canadian. Iron ore mined in Labrador, maple obviously, and lots of things we thought were nice parallels. You know, strong — both products, both things we use arguably on every job site. We'll

79:31build with them. That's really kind of how we ended up with Iron Maple. So we did come up with it on our own. We can't take credit for the branding though — we'll have to give a shout out to Phil and company at Revolve. Revolve was — and I'll give them credit — they came back the first time and it was almost like: what you see is what they came with. It was like: you just know. So yeah, we were

80:04obviously pleased — we picked it right away. So we were very pleased with what it looked like. And it's gotten great reaction, as you just said there. One of the names I came up with that no one bought into was 'Young Brothers.' Young Brothers? Young Brothers — like young blood. You liked that? It was bad because each of us is the youngest child in our

80:33sibling family. I'm the youngest, Ian's the youngest, Jim's the youngest, and Dirk is the youngest in his family. But that didn't fly. That wasn't going to happen. It got banned. And when you know each other that well, that process was fun in and of itself. Yeah, it went something like: 'How about Young Brothers?' Crickets. Yeah, I don't think so. What's next? Lack of enthusiasm. Yeah, yeah. So what about — both you and Ian, Rene — with your experience

81:08and the amount of people that have worked under you, and the vast projects that you've worked on — is it a different stress now? Even though you've been in the industry so long and done major, complex projects, to have your own thing now — to have that ownership — is it different in any way? Is it a different kind of stress? I don't know. Our business can be stressful at

81:38different times regardless — just the sheer volume of what you've got to get done, or whether there's a problem on a project. Schedules usually drive a lot of your stress — you know what you're stressed about. I would say it's not really — I think to some degree you're excited about what's happening, so it doesn't seem like work. And I would say even the stresses that you have are kind of relative to what you've had in your past and in your experience.

82:09For me anyway, I would say it's different in the sense that I don't really find as much stress — which doesn't mean you don't have days where you feel a little bit more stressed than others. But I would say it's more excitement and energy to build what we want to build. And if there's any amount of stress, it's making sure that we're living up to what we want to

82:34live up to. Whether that's being the most respected general contractor, or whether that's 'Construction Made Easy' — it's making sure we're always striving toward what we set out to be. And if we're falling short, that part stresses me out. Is there anything that surprised you about the competition here — whether it be Bird or Pomerleau, companies that aren't just in Atlantic Canada but do price and work here — or Marco and some of the other ones that are

83:00local? Any surprises with how tight things are with bidding? No, I don't think it's — no, no surprises. You know, it's a tight market, tight margins. So we do our best, as would all those guys you just mentioned, to try to stay out of the dog fight where you're bidding against ten other bidders. Not telling any school secrets here — knowing

83:30everyone who bids those things — you love to win them because you put the effort in to bid them, but they're not the jobs you want to build your entire business on. So back to that work mix I talked about earlier — yeah, you can have lump-sum work, but if all you're doing is bidding lump-sum work where you're totally commodity-driven, it eats the low price every time, and you're up against

83:55eight bidders. It's just not a very fun place to live. So no, nothing's really shocked me. We've been reasonably competitive when we've put ourselves in that position. But I'm almost happy to say: we didn't start Iron Maple and all of a sudden go and win a bunch of work and have the industry look at us and say, 'Oh my god, look at them — they're just out there buying a bunch of work

84:22and driving to the bottom.' We didn't do that. We've won a few like that where we've been low bid, but we're trying to be as selective as we can be when we're playing in that marketplace. Any close relationship with REITs and those kinds of building asset owner groups? No, I think that's — probably not any more than any others.

84:53We try to — the one thing we've been happy with is we've been able to get on the lists we want to get on, and into the work that we want to be able to bid on. So I would say the client diversity is pretty high when I look right across at the type of work we're doing, which is pretty diverse — including our own Iron Maple Petroleum group. So we've been happy with that side of it. And I would say, to your

85:19point on the competition side of things — I would say not surprised. And if anything, I think as you get into competing against more mature and like-minded competitors, those are the competitors you like to compete against, because they think about risk the same way, they think about their returns the same way, they probably have similar overhead structures and those sorts of things. And if you're going to compete against like-minded competitors, you're probably okay to compete on an

85:49everyday basis — you're going to win some of your work and they're going to win some of theirs. And so be it — that's the way it goes. For us, I don't normally look at any other circumstance: if we aren't successful on a job and somebody's figured out a better mousetrap on how to secure that particular work, then more times than not we don't waste much energy on it. We just go to the next one. Well guys, it's been a

86:12real treat to sit here and talk with you guys. I know a lot of people tune in — Iron Maple is, for anyone in the industry, big news. And just for you guys to come in and give us your time here at the Atlantic Construction Podcast, talk about your journey in the industry and what it's been like to get this off the ground — it's been a real

86:36treat for me and the team here. And I know our listeners are going to enjoy tuning in and hearing your stories and getting your opinions on some of the things going on in the industry, and talking about Iron Maple. So I really appreciate your time for doing this. Thanks for having us, Dan — I appreciate it. It's been fun, actually. Yeah, it's been a good time to reminisce and chat. So yeah, appreciate it.

87:04Thanks. And for us, it's important to have you showing some interest in having us — we really appreciate that. And as Rene says, it's been a fun afternoon. Great — thanks, guys. Thanks. You're welcome. Have a good one. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to follow us on any podcast platform you use. You can also find us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to send us a comment or review — we'd love to engage with you.