Halifax’s Mason Shortage Crisis — and How Stone Depot Is Building the Commercial Hardscape Market | Atlantic Construction Podcast

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1:21Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Excited to have with us today our two guests from the Stone Depot — Kyle MacDonald, owner, and Andrew Pepper, sales — and we have Kevin McGinnis here as well from Permacon, manufacturer of all things stone. The Stone Depot is a sales, retail, and supplier of landscape and masonry products. So excited to have you gentlemen with us today and looking forward to our conversation. Thank you. Great to be here. Yeah.

1:59Usually we kick it off by just kind of talking a little bit about our guests' backgrounds and their journey in the industry. But maybe we could start with Kyle and Andrew — just kind of give us an overall explanation of the Stone Depot. Kyle, I know you just took the reins there a couple years ago and things have changed a bit. Yeah, maybe just kind of fill our

2:28audience in on the Stone Depot. Andrew, you want to take that? Because I know — absolutely — funny enough, as much as Kyle's the owner, I've been there what, five years longer? So yeah, anyway. But you were a client. So — the Stone Depot started in 1994-95. It was started by a gentleman named Ken Timmins. He had done landscaping work in Ontario, so we started off as an installation company. And Ken saw the opportunity for, you know, kind of some more prestigious products here in the

2:56in Atlantic Canada and Nova Scotia. And originally a Maritimer, he wanted to move back down here with his family to live that Maritime life. And anyway, from there we went on to get a distribution division, or a retail outlet, and then install crews for a while. Yeah, that's exactly it. We started off as Acme Environmentals — that was actually the name of the company starting off — and then the Stone Depot became almost a division of that.

3:26And so anyway, we excelled on the installation front for a while, and then we kind of brought in higher-end products into the market here in Halifax. So it started off as mostly natural stone and then went on to the precast pavers. And so anyway, now — I feel confident in saying, as someone who's been in the industry for a while — that we are the premier seller,

3:51retailer of stone products, stone masonry products, landscape products here in Halifax. So yeah, we're very proud of that, and Kyle's continued that tradition along. Yeah, I feel like it encapsulates so many different products when you're talking about landscaping and masonry. And even just looking through some of the Permacon product lines — you were saying earlier, Kevin, there are — I don't know how many — 700 different products? Yeah. I mean, how many different

4:19products would you say the Stone Depot currently has access to, option-wise? Yeah, we have access to all of them, but we only stock so many because there are so many you can only hold. Yeah. So, Kyle, you took the reins a couple years ago with the Stone Depot as the owner, as CEO. Your background — I know you were saying you're building some houses on the side for yourself, it's kind of a hobby — a good construction

4:43background. I'm assuming, like, working on the sites — is it always in the stone kind of realm, the landscaping and masonry kind of stuff? Yeah. I mean, ever since I was little, you know, side jobs always outdoors, digging holes, moving rocks — you know that kind of thing. So you had it in you way back. Yeah, exactly. I was always into anything physical labor. Yeah. That kind of rolled into — I ended up going to NSCC for Horticulture, which kind of steered me towards the landscape world. Yeah, because that's

5:14where I just thrived — you know, anything with equipment. So when you take Horticulture at NSCC, what's included in that? Like, that's a two-year course — is it mainly the landscaping trade and some civil or what? It's changed a bit since I took it, which was quite a while ago. When I took it, your first year you touched on everything — whether it's retail, greenhouse growing, landscaping — pretty overall. Yeah. And then you kind of picked which

5:42direction you wanted to go. Obviously I focused more on the hardscape component, which then put me into the whole landscape industry. That was back in 2007, I believe. Okay, that's kind of when that journey started. Yeah. I worked for somebody for — I think 13 years — and during that 13 years I honed my skills and I became a red seal journeyman, back in 2013 I think. So after my stint with

6:18that company I started my own — rolled back — install company. Correct. Yeah. Then the opportunity to acquire the Stone Depot was presented to me, and at that stage in my life I thought this is a great transition. Yeah. As opposed to me slinging pavers for another 20 years, why don't I sell them? Yeah. I mean, that's got to be a great background when you're dealing with clients and buyers — it helps you, you know the trade so well. Yeah. The landscape world — I was

6:51not overly knowledgeable in the masonry component, which is where I leaned on Andrew and Colby, our sales guys. Okay. For a lot of that. So what's it been like, the transition from installing and having your red seal — it's a highly labor-intensive — not saying that it isn't — but into a different realm where you're in the same industry, the same trades, but on the other side? Yeah, it was funny, it was an

7:25eye-opener, me being on the other side of that counter. My whole career with the other company, and on my own, I dealt with Stone Depot — so I've known these guys for a long time. Yeah. But I was always on the other side, as a contractor. Being on the side of the retail store was an eye-opener — what these guys get put through. Yeah. And how demanding contractors can be. That was you. Yeah, that was you too. You're correct. And I actually felt

7:53pretty bad. But it gave me a whole new appreciation for what these guys do and what they juggle. And yeah, when I think sometimes, you know, 'come on guys,' as a contractor — I know now in the background they are working hard, trying to keep everybody happy. Yeah. It's not one contractor to deal with, it's 30. Correct. And you've got to keep all their orders and keep everyone — it's very hard on

8:21top of dealing with your walk-in retail customers, your builders — it's a lot for these guys. Yeah, for sure. So for me it's been pretty good in the sense of — I'm not doing the landscape hours anymore. That was a big thing for me, so that I could be home earlier. I have a wife and two children. Okay, so that weighed into the decision. Exactly. Because landscape hours —

8:47I wouldn't get home until eight, nine, ten o'clock at night. Yeah. Wouldn't see the kids. So getting the Stone Depot, I thought, all right, here's some kind of nine to five — sure, some later days here and there — but overall I'd be home better hours. The working-with-your-hands side of it — people ask me that all the time. And yeah, say what you will, I kind of don't miss it. I did it for so long. Yeah. And you

9:15have to wonder — I did it for so many years without all the new tools that are out today and equipment. Things are changing fast. Yeah. So it was really hard back then. It's still hard now, but there are a lot of tools that kind of make things a little easier on you. I miss being on site with guys and the joking, and I think that's what most guys miss. Yeah. But as far as the whole working-with-my-hands side, I get that now kind of doing

9:41some of this side work, building a home here and there. Yeah. Cool. Yeah. That's a good segue into Kevin McGinnis here with Permacon, the manufacturer. I think you mentioned maybe 15 different locations around Atlantic Canada where you're tied up? So we're a manufacturer in Quebec and Ontario. We have nine different plants and we make concrete masonry and landscape products, and then we sell through a dealer network in the Maritimes. And Stone Depot is one of our locations here in

10:12Halifax that would sell our products for us. And so you've been in the business development and sales side for a long time? Well, yes and no. I've been with Permacon for just around six years now, but I've been in the industry probably 30-plus years, in a few different roles and a few different aspects. But it's been mostly in the landscape industry — some horticulture as well. So yeah. I'm assuming you've probably spent a lot of time talking with architects — is that

10:42kind of where your energy and effort goes, trying to get specs? Absolutely. Yeah, no — I mean, I would say I have a fairly good relationship with most architects. They know about our products, know what we have on offer, and if it works in their design, great. If it doesn't, well, hopefully the next one does. Yeah. I feel like when it comes to some of these retrofits, or some of these projects, or even historic

11:04properties and things like that — a lot of it's stone construction and you're trying to match up. Like, do you ever get involved with some of these kind of crazy projects where they're trying to refurbish stuff? There must be some neat stories from some of those jobs. Yeah. I mean, I've got a little bit of design interest in the background, so I'd hate to see a product used that really doesn't fit the surroundings. So

11:27I enjoy that part — seeing an architect because they've got a vision. In the end, they're an artist in their own ways, and they're trying to use our products or other products to create that vision. So yeah, some things are pretty neat to see. You know, there are times where you see it on paper and you kind of go, well — you have mixed reviews when you see it on paper, then when it's

11:48installed it's like, wow, okay, I didn't see it turning out this way. So yeah, it's hard to envision. Yeah. Especially with a lot of these products — what it's going to look like realistically. So I think that's why a lot of them are using such realistic renderings now. Yeah. Well, as a manufacturer — I mean, Kyle and Andrew, they deal with a fair amount of natural stone — and any manufacturer who tried to replicate

12:08natural stone — because that's what we're used to, the Maritimes is a natural stone look — so colors, we try to represent that. There are some products where we say we try to replicate a natural stone look, but then there are others that are new and contemporary that change direction altogether. So yeah. One thing about Permacon is they're a trendsetter in what they're manufacturing, what their vision is. Okay. And so they create a lot of unique demand as well. And yeah, so it's a

12:36good place to be in the market. Yeah, absolutely. I would say that Permacon — we're a manufacturer here in Quebec and Ontario, but Permacon is only a small part of a big company. We're owned by CRH, or Old Castle, and so there are many other divisions of the company and we're one part of it. But we do a nice job manufacturing some hardscape products. So yeah. Is there any kind of current trend you

13:02can speak to? I know you mentioned natural stone a couple of times — is there any product right now that seems really popular, whether on the residential side for a backyard, or is it just kind of always evolving? I think you see trends come and go. Right now it seems to be a smooth, modern, large look. So this would be from Permacon something like the Mega Melville slabs. Colors that are maybe a little more

13:32monochromatic — I think I'm describing that the right way — like a very, you know, light and kind of watercolor. Yeah, exactly. So people really seem to be going with larger, larger pavers as opposed to many small ones. Yeah, absolutely. Which is one of those things — on the plus side from the installation perspective, it goes down quickly. On the drawback side, you do have to make sure that you have strong backs or

13:57the right equipment, which has been a good thing for us as we've been able to bring in some more modern equipment that makes it easier for guys, especially with the labor shortage. Once those pallets land in your yard? Yep. Yeah, we send them out. And we have people coming to us and some buying tools — other than your typical forklifts, there's some specialized gear too for different types of products. Absolutely. So we work with a few

14:20different companies. MQIP would be our vacuum lifters. Kyle — in a lot of ways I want to say — introduced them to the Maritimes; they had been down here a bit, but we actually retail them, we keep them on hand. We also work with a company called Great North Hardscape Products, and Pave Tool, which is promoted by Permacon and other industry suppliers. So it's one of those things that

14:43four years ago, prior to the pandemic and prior to labor shortages, guys had that old-school mentality of, 'No, I'll just break my back putting these in.' Yeah. Now guys are going, 'Listen, I need these tools.' Because it's hard enough to get guys. Yeah, exactly. There's no more — if you break your back, there's no more walking the two-by-two patio slabs across the area. Now listen, you've got things

15:12you can lift with — stop guys from jamming their fingers and that sort of thing. So that's something we've kind of seen — with that demand for larger products, that's created more of a demand for those tools. Yeah. Cutting-edge things, those vacuum lifts — really cool. Do you guys rent equipment too to some of the contractors? That's part of your offerings? Yeah, that was a new thing that we started —

15:35renting vacuums and roller tampers and stuff for that larger format. Yeah, because not all of them would, you know, maybe have the capital or have invested in them. So that's got to be a good offering — kind of wrap your arms around them. Here's the product, and here's a piece of gear to help you. Yeah. Andrew, you've been in sales — sorry, did you have something else? I'm just going to say, one of those things — this also

15:56gives maybe some of the bigger install companies a chance to basically try this stuff out. So you rent it, you know, for one or two jobs — the next thing you do, listen, man, I can spend this much in rentals or I can just buy it. And so we've seen a lot of companies just going, 'Listen, we're doing enough big jobs now, we'll buy that equipment.' Also, too — like, you know, with bigger projects it maybe makes more sense to buy it as opposed to rent it long-term.

16:19If it's a larger project, but if you get into some commercial projects too, renting this gear and incorporating that variable into your labor costs — absolutely, that's a big deal for some of them, I assume. Absolutely, yeah. For sure. And the other thing too — the way the trends have gone, it's large format. That's the way it's going now. And because it's large format, that's a bigger deal on many, many jobs. Yeah, absolutely. So the days of a paver the

16:42size of your hand — those are behind us now, I would say. And most people, even with large equipment like an excavator, there's an attachment you can put a vacuum on — a vacuum attachment — and so you can use more gear. You're saving backs, you're laying down more square footage quicker. Yeah. Guys like playing with that gear too — they want those new toys. Yeah. Yeah. No, that's great. Maybe

17:11for our listeners — hoping, and obviously a lot of contractors listening in, architects, and different kinds of points of entry for Stone Depot and Permacon — maybe for someone who's driving by, maybe listening to the audio of this podcast right now and they're looking at a nice brand-new house or a commercial building, just kind of explain the products we're talking about here. It's like masonry for cladding, masonry products you see on the building whether it's brick or veneer stone, and then you've

17:39got your pavers. We could say retaining walls — what else? I mean, there's curbing, ledge stones, steps — yeah, curbing, edging, that sort of thing. Even — I mean, as far as what we're seeing a lot of is with landscaping, people are basically bringing their indoor living outdoors. So to match their hardscapes and their softscapes, they're also adding in things like fire features. So this would be your propane burners, that sort of

18:11thing there — not just wood burning, because let's face it, summers are getting drier. And so in the middle of July you're going, 'Listen, I can't burn here, I have this fire pit and I can't burn,' unless you have a propane burner or natural gas burner. So doing nice fire setups and landscape lighting — it's one of those things where I tell guys all the time, listen — people are spending all this

18:33money on their landscaping, and if they're getting something installed, nobody can see it from 7 PM in the summer until — exactly. So yeah, you just had your patio put in end of August or early September, and it's like, well, you can't fully enjoy it. Well, landscape lighting gives you an opportunity to enjoy your outdoor spaces that much more and gives you those longer times out in your backyard oasis.

18:58And when it comes to fireplaces — are you supplying just certain products that are stone in nature, with different variables that make them suitable for building your fireplaces? Or do you go further than that — is there actual fire units you can buy from the Stone Depot? So it's one of those things where we can do the stone — Permacon offers a variety of fire pits, some that are

19:23pre-kits, other things where you can use this product to build your fire feature. And then we do carry a line of burners — not necessarily stocked on hand, but it's one of those things where we access those when needed. Yeah. So it's something you can do the whole nine yards on. We kind of make that easy for you. We try to be as much of a

19:45one-stop shop as possible in that regard. So yeah. It's one of those things where you pick out your fire pit — and again, for some people, my wife, it's one of those things where she wants that traditional wood burning. And there are times where she can't use it — fair enough, she'll wait. But there are other people who listen — middle of August, we haven't had rain in two weeks, we still want to have

20:06that garden party with our fire feature. So they'll go ahead and install — pay that extra money for that propane burner or natural gas burner. What are some of the things — when it comes to contractors making decisions, if it's residential, and they're using different products other than aesthetics (because that's obviously a big one) — is it eco-friendly? Are there different products that have different installation methods? Like, I

20:34don't have a lot of personal knowledge around landscaping and masonry and stuff, but what are some of the things that a quality contractor might look for when looking at some of these products, as opposed to just the client's aesthetic preferences? As far as the product specifics themselves — well, I guess what I would comment on first is it really just depends on the scale of the backyard they're working on, a lot of personality, yeah, and the budget for sure. But a lot of them

21:02are actually having a design done — either from a landscape designer or landscape architect — yeah, gives you the end vision, right? So they have something they know they're going to work towards, and then from there it's specked in — either drawn in, you know, whatever product it is they want to use. Right. Yeah. I mean, but there are some landscape contractors that would be doing the designs themselves, and yes, probably designing around the products they've used in the past and have experience with from the

21:27past, yeah, as far as installation. So just having a comfort level with how that goes and that it went well last time. Yeah. I feel like too — not necessarily speaking to the masonry side, but for landscaping — I don't know if this is just kind of subjective or from what I see, but I know Dalhousie is doing a new program, or working on a new program, and there are new programs coming out all the time where it's landscape architecture specifically. And I feel like a lot of the designs and

21:58the buildings being built — whether residential, multi-res, commercial, or institutional — there's a lot more thought maybe being put into the landscape element. And I mean, that's got to be good for business, I'm assuming. You guys notice that? Yeah. I mean, not just through sales, but you're right — you see it. There's definitely more thought into those outdoor spaces — probably just a way to make everybody happier instead of just being stuck in a building all the time. They know, for

22:25sure, outdoor patios — yeah, they want people out there spending time out there. Absolutely. The other thing I was going to mention too is social media — people seeing things on Pinterest, Facebook, and all those — the ideas are just out there. Yeah. And I guess hence 700 product lines. Right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. Well, that's great to see — because we could all spend more time outside. Yeah. The other thing I was going to mention — Andrew, you touched

22:54on fire and outdoor fireplaces, but even outdoor kitchens — yeah, in some ways really trying to create an outdoor room. Where they're trying to have a fireplace area, lighting for sure, but even an outdoor kitchen, barbecue areas, outdoor seating areas with dining tables and everything. So it's really almost creating another extension of their house. Another outdoor room. Yeah, we enjoy that extension of their houses. So if someone was creating an outdoor kitchen and they were thinking about things like countertops — like quartz or some

23:19different products — those are lines you guys would carry too? Like, I guess certain types of materials may be more suitable for outside with moisture and things like that. But yeah, we carry oversized slabs — kind of what we call barbecue slabs — and we'll do custom cuts of those. You know, you're talking some heavy stuff, some two-inch slabs and natural stone. Yes. Right? So you're cutting that in the warehouse at Stone Depot

23:47location here? What's that? It's a big wet saw — a handheld one, actually. Oh, really? Okay. We do it kind of old school. Yeah, mark it out and, yeah, bend over and go with the saw, rock things by hand. And it works, man. You don't have to — oh, that's pretty cool. I mean, I'm just trying to envision it now. I think that's one of those things that everybody kind of has a dream of having — that backyard. Oh yeah, that

24:19you have people over for different events and stuff. And you can add to that as well — there are more and more pools being installed every year. Probably like 80% of the time you see a pool installed, there's going to be pavers, maybe a retaining wall, you gotta have a deck out there. So that's a big feature too. Yeah. So as far as — you know, a lot of the focus has been on residential in the past. You worked at

24:44Shaw for a while, right? I mean, you've been doing this whole contractor thing for a long time. I've been around. So it's one of those things — give us some dirt. I'm keeping it all above board here. My tell-all memoir is coming out when I retire — that's where you get the dirt. So no. But you've been doing this for a long time, dealing with contractors — like Kyle said earlier, it's not always easy. Everybody has jobs, they got schedules, they got budgets to keep, and

25:15you're dealing with a lot of them at the same time. Yeah, it's a tough thing to manage. And some days you just need to get outside for fresh air. Yeah. Funny. There are some days where I look and I'm going, 'Man, I gotta channel my inner Phil Jackson' — that's the white hairs and the beard, you know what I mean. So it's funny because — yeah, listen, working with a number of contractors over the years, I think I've developed a really good

25:35relationship with them over the years — from home builders to landscape contractors. And it's one of those things where you just got to realize everybody's a little bit different. When we kind of get on the same page, it really works out. And you just need — like I said, I kind of half say it jokingly — but Phil Jackson is one of the guys I look at. The LA Lakers back in the day weren't any

25:56— basically he was the one who managed to make Shaq and Kobe work together to win championships. And so that's kind of how I try to work — to work with these guys so that they're successful, so the Stone Depot's successful, so Permacon and our other suppliers — that I kind of mentioned here — anyway, yeah. There are definitely days where you're

26:18pulling out your hair, and my beard's got a little grayer throughout the pandemic. But it's one of those things where — I remember there was a point where I was kind of thinking, 'Listen, do I really want to do this anymore?' And all of a sudden I was in Tim Hortons and I just saw

26:38the contractors rolling in, and I'm like, 'Listen, I love working with these guys.' It's funny. To give you a bit of my background — my family's all blue collar. The men in my family are all blue collar, I should say, except me. And so I think of this analysis that Mike Rowe has from Mike Works. You guys know Mike Rowe? I'm not sure if I do. Okay. He's the 'Dirty Jobs'

27:01guy. Yeah, one of those things — a real advocate for the trades. But I remember he tells the story — I've seen Dirty Jobs, yeah. So he tells the story of how his grandfather and father were real good, trained tradesmen, and he wasn't so great. And his grandfather, after he kind of tried doing something, just kind of looked at him and said, 'You know what, son, you're going to be a tradesman, you just need a different toolbox.' And so it's one of those things where

27:24although I'm not super handy like Kyle is — you know, I don't come from that side of things. I just always appreciated blue collar guys because of my two grandfathers and my father — that's the sort of thing they were, they were trades guys. Now it's funny that you gravitated to that role. And I mean, you've got to deal with the contractors, the architects on one side, logistics, timing, scheduling — just a lot of different things to juggle

27:48there. A lot more to it, like Kyle was saying earlier, than probably most people would appreciate until they're close by — at close range — or in your shoes. Yeah, absolutely. That's the thing. And yeah, I appreciate Kyle mentioning that because I'm sure those guys are watching and going, 'Why is Andrew not working on this for me?' But again, you got all these different guys. It's one of

28:07those things — even just internally, you're trying to make sure orders are picked, you're trying to make sure guys know what's going out next on the truck, that sort of thing. So there's certainly a lot to juggle. But at the end of the day, no matter what I do, I end up gravitating back to this. This has been a great 15 years in the industry for me, and it's

28:27been a great 15 years. You've earned those gray hairs. Yeah, that's exactly it. So as far as we're talking — the history of the Stone Depot — mainly focused on residential, is that correct in the past? Quick shout-out to the newest sponsor of the show, the Stone Depot. The Stone Depot is located in Bayers Lake, Halifax, and serves all of the East Coast. A showroom of over 8,000 square feet — perfect for masonry contractors, landscaping contractors, builders, developers. Regardless, the Stone Depot is a great

28:54option for you whether you're doing fire pits, patio stones, or kitchen and interior stones. So if you're looking for a great stone supplier, visit the Stone Depot. This episode is brought to you by Airtight Spaces. Airtight Spaces is Atlantic Canada's first authorized Aerobarrier dealer. They help create comfortable, healthy, and durable living environments with the added benefit of energy efficiency. Air sealing is a critical step towards net zero buildings. Using air pressure to automatically guide sealant guarantees the highest quality results in the least amount of time with the least amount of effort. If

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29:51business looking for new options and increased efficiency, or a newer company looking to build a solid foundation for future growth, Pivot has a product that can be modified to your needs. Consider making the pivot today — book a free consultation at pivotbookkeeping.com. Yeah, that's been our biggest area — residential, some builders. But that is kind of an area where we hope to change in the future and get more into that commercial world. Which we got a good start on last year with a couple of

30:22nice projects. Said one in Fredericton — you were saying? Yeah, the City of Fredericton was one of them. Yep. And then Richmond Yard, which is ongoing. Correct. And that was a big one. We worked hand in hand with Permacon on that project, and I was pretty pumped to nail that one down with Kevin. What are the products being used in Richmond Yards — can we mention? Like, pavers or — yeah, it's a ton of

30:47pavers. It's the Boulevard. Okay. I've seen the Boulevard lines. What is it — 80? It's 7,000 square feet? Yeah, I think it's 18,000-something like that. Wow. Yeah. It's a lot. So yeah, that was pretty exciting for me, because when I purchased Stone Depot, I knew the commercial side was definitely lower than the residential, and I wanted to push that direction. And yeah, when I saw that project come across, yeah, I got pretty

31:17excited. Wow. So maybe tell us a little bit about that project. It's definitely getting attention — a lot of people know Richmond Yards who are tuning in, especially from Halifax and the area. Yeah. Lots of eyeballs on that one. Oh yeah, it's hard to miss it actually. Yeah, it's quite a unique project. I mean, there are several things going on there. Westwood Developments are the owners of the project. There's Westwood as CM? Yes, that's correct. And

31:41there are a couple of towers on site, there are some townhouses, and there are a couple of roadways going through. So the Boulevard paver line is what's featured there — there are a few different colors, some textures as well. So it's really creating a quite neat look to it. Yeah. And there are some — on the main level there are a few different products from Permacon. The Air-Tech system is one, which is a planter system. Okay. And

32:05then also our Melville retaining wall system. So — wow. Yeah. It's going to be a pretty unique project. Yeah. So there are planters, you know, maybe every 20, 40 feet throughout the different areas. Yeah, it's quite a — I mean if you look at it, there's a glass building with some Acer in the building as well. You're talking about the tower? Yeah, the towers. Yes. And it's a pretty hard surface area, so you've got to do something to

32:26soften it somehow. So by putting planters with softscape in there as well, it's going to soften it quite a bit. So yeah, it's going to be a pretty spectacular project. Yeah. And all that — that's amazing. Congrats on that. So maybe just for context — on the process, when it comes to Kevin with Permacon as the manufacturer, and Kyle at the Stone Depot as the owner — what's your inroad there? I mean, I'm not asking for too many details, but are

32:51you kind of working a little bit with the architects early on, or are you just talking to the developer, or is it just the contractor buying your products and installing? I had a lot of the same questions when I first bought Stone Depot. Yeah. What's it — how's it going to look, how do we get our fingers in and find out what's going on? Yeah. The biggest thing I would say is starting with the architect. It's an

33:11anchor — well, first of all the building owner. Yeah, that's just coming to the architect and saying, 'This is what we're working on, put it in plans.' So Valak McKee — the landscape architect on this project — they would have talked to Westwood, got the ball rolling, put some designs together, and then turning into, 'Okay, what products can be used, what design can be used?' So that's really the process. Once that's done, then it's put out to tender. Yeah.

33:40For pricing, and then going from there. And then there's a point where they look at the product and say, 'Okay, that's great, but it's over budget — what can we do to reduce?' Yeah, cut here, cut there. So for our listeners — anyone in the industry knows — but that can be pretty long and drawn out, just to get yourself into a job like that. You're talking a couple of years sometimes. Yeah, absolutely. What about the

34:01Fredericton one — can we speak on that at all? Yeah, that was last year. They had an extension on a project, so we just worked with the City of Fredericton to help provide those pavers. It's one of those things — we haven't had a chance to go up there and get a lot of pictures or anything like that. But yeah, it was really an

34:21opportunity for us to work with them — there was an opportunity and we jumped on it. And yeah, so that was again a learning curve for us. But at the end of the day it's got us — made us look bigger in the game. People are kind of realizing now that listen, the Stone Depot isn't just about residential projects. Not just about, you know, working with the

34:43smaller to medium-sized contractors — we're certainly here to serve the bigger contractors as well, and to serve their needs with those bigger projects. Yeah. And I guess as far as the risk goes — bigger volume, bigger risk. But also, a lot of the same products can be kind of interchangeable, I'm assuming, on residential and commercial. Maybe — but some of the spec requirements when you're dealing with commercial, you're usually talking 100-mil

35:08pavers for heavy traffic, which no residential would look at. But yeah, there are — like what Kevin was saying with the Air-Tech panels and the wall systems and stuff — they're interchangeable between commercial and residential. And as far as your operations — if there are contractors listening from New Brunswick, you got that one commercial job in Fredericton — no problem serving. As far as your operations and logistics, if there are contractors who want to get another

35:36price on things, reach out — it never hurts to get another price. Yeah, for sure. My motto. And yeah, we look at them aggressively, so we're open. Yeah. And for some of these jobs, like you mentioned Richmond Yards — high volume — you guys kind of figure that out between your manufacturer and yourself. Like, you only have so much room at your yard and you've got to keep it until this happens. Kind of — that's just something

36:01you have to work through when you're dealing with high volumes. But a lot of the time on some of those bigger projects, you are just taking it direct from manufacturer to site — there's no, you know, I don't have to bring it to my yard. Right. When it comes to your products — I'm thinking of different types of materials, whether it's high-end cladding or sheeting and stuff — a lot of times guys don't want stuff on site

36:24too early. But if it's a product you're carrying, it's not detrimental to the product itself if it's sitting in your yard. And that is one of the nice things about a concrete product — a paver — it can sit on a pallet, it's wrapped, it's protected, it can sit there for quite a while before it gets installed. Yeah, it's not like it's going to bow or something. The other challenge is, for instance we talk about Richmond Yards — it's such a

36:50small space and a busy — you know, Halifax city is very busy. Yeah. And so there's only so much space, there's only so much room. It's not like, 'Oh, we got lots of room here, you go.' And there are many trades going on, so they're all competing for the same little work area. So yeah, Richmond Yards has been a challenge for sure. It would be, yeah. So as far as that project — do you have all the product distributed to site for the

37:12installation, or half — or are you still working it? It's still ongoing. Right. They've got a chunk, but I know they're laying it down. Still going, still good. And that's where you come in too, Kevin — you're thinking, okay, how many more months for this much, and where's it — it's got to come from Quebec. And there's a lot that goes into that. The contractor doesn't want to be waiting — as soon as he's ready,

37:33it's like they want it next week. Yeah. Well, I know the material would be made already for the project, so we're sitting on it. Kyle and I are just waiting for the green light to say, 'Okay, send another truck in,' or a couple of trucks in. So yeah. So as far as the split on sales between landscaping and masonry — a lot of the conversation's been around landscaping, but masonry contractors are a big part too. Yeah, absolutely. And I've

38:02seen that grow quite a bit since I purchased the Stone Depot. That was another avenue we definitely knew we could grow. And Andrew's done a heck of a job pushing that — working with these contractors with some new products and whatnot — to grow that area of the business. Yeah. Can you speak on that a little bit, Andrew? I mean, I guess that would help coming from your background. When it comes to builders and masonry — yeah, they want that clay brick and that's where they're going. Yeah, for sure. Lots of

38:29different products they're using now, though. Yeah. I think for us it's just building — you know what I found with the builders we work with? They want someone who's reliable, they want someone who's available to them, they want to know when something's going to be in — it's going to be in. They want to know if something's going to be on site, that it's on site. And so for me it's been great — kind of, you know, you

38:46know, I say the first part of my career was more on the landscaping side, as far as sales go. So it's been good since I've transitioned — since I came to the Stone Depot, over seven years ago — to build those relationships with the builders. And yeah, so it's just great to work with those guys. As far as our mix goes, I mean, I'm just anecdotally going to say it's kind of like 33 masonry, 67 landscape.

39:11But yes, we've certainly brought on some new builders throughout this time. We're seeing some of those bigger houses. And, you know, before it was one of those things where — all people in Nova Scotia, I mean, it was almost hard for me. I actually took a trip to Permacon about 10 years ago, and you see that the guys from Quebec couldn't understand why we were only getting brick or stone on the front part of the house. They kind of see that their houses are

39:33four-sided or three-sided — up to a certain elevation or full wall. I mean, I'd say usually it was almost — I seem to remember seeing houses in one of the swankier neighborhoods of Quebec City where it was almost like they had siding on the bottom and then the rest was stone. Whereas here it's usually the opposite — yeah, it's usually just a little bit on the front and yeah, you have little jogs on the side so that it

39:56gives that look. But we are seeing a lot more bigger jobs with stone, as we see people move from west to east, bringing those purchasing trends — they want those houses that don't just look like, 'We threw some stone on it to make it look a little posh.' We want something that's going to be — we saw this house that we dreamed of when we lived in Toronto or when we lived in Montreal, and we've moved

40:19down to the Maritimes, we want to bring that down here. So think of some of the houses here in the peninsula or down by Point Pleasant Park — there's some nice masonry on some of those. Absolutely. Yeah. And it's one of those things — the hard thing I find is that masons are starting to become harder and harder to find. So it's one of those things that — I think there was a point where it

40:40came up at a recent conference. Actually I think it was the Permacon Elevate seminar, where someone said to me they heard the average mason was basically in their 50s in Nova Scotia. So that's been a hard thing. But there are other products out there — there's alternative masonry, whether that's a mortared-on veneer, mechanically fastened products, that sort of thing. So there are lots of new innovations on that masonry side of things. And even with those new innovations — like, it's still — I mean, you

41:06could say any building envelope or cladding company could install them. But still, a lot of them takes a masonry company to install, even though you're saying it's veneer — it's still a brick product, it's still a — yeah. Absolutely. That's one of those things we found. I mean, I think veneer kind of came out and it was like, 'Listen, I don't have to do a full brick check' — and I'm sure people looked at it and said, 'I don't need a mason.' And that's — like, we've certainly seen plenty of jobs look awful

41:28because you simply thought that your tile guy, or the young fella who was putting up your siding, could do the job. And the number of times where we have people calling us, 'Listen, do you have a proper mason who can come in and take on this job and fix this up?' — it's pretty common. You know, we really do try to push — we love

41:50giving business to masons, we love the relationships we have with masons. And so it's one of those things — we do try to push people when they're going, 'Is there a way I can kind of cut corners on this?' And in my opinion it's like, 'Listen, get a mason, get the right mason.' Because you might look at that little bit of money you're saving, but it could end up being one of the worst investments you

42:08made — simply because you skimped on that initial investment. And that goes for most trades. Yes. So when it comes to — the Stone Depot is kind of making that transition over the last couple of years into more commercial sales. Obviously that doesn't just go for landscaping but for masonry as well. And there are some big players in the commercial masonry field. But I think too, a big thing we talk about on the show here a

42:30lot is the labor shortage. And it's a busy market right now, especially when you're talking about Nova Scotia, but New Brunswick, PEI too. And there are only so many masons. And if those guys are busy and they've got work planned out for a year or two — there are jobs going on. I remember just some different things — you know, having a pulse on, like, down near Point Pleasant, prior to the Atlantic School of

42:53Theology and some different projects being refurbished — they're thinking, 'We want to do this before the end of the year for whatever budget reasons,' and I don't think they're going to get a mason and be able to do this. And that's a big issue — that's the problem. Nobody really wants to wait, and you're usually waiting for the good ones. Yeah. I know exactly — because they're going to be busy. Yeah. Just to comment on the masonry

43:17trade — it's not only masonry, it's all trades experiencing that. Right. Yeah, a hundred percent. No, you're right. Yeah. And I know every guest that comes through here — whether it's on the consultant side, architects and engineers, or the sub trades, or the GCs — everyone's got the same problem. Yeah, and the suppliers too, right? I mean, they need experienced salespeople and talented people in the warehouses and everything. Yes, it's all around. Yeah. I usually say in this industry — you need

43:45— in order to sell it, you need one to two years to kind of even get — I'd say like a 75% knowledge of the product. And my first couple of years certainly had plenty of lumps and plenty of times where I was like, 'Oh holy smokes, I didn't think of this or this or this.' But yeah, it takes one or two years, and I think right

44:07now that can be a tough thing — kind of telling people, 'Listen, the first little bit will be a bit of a baptism by fire and it can be difficult. But at the end of the day, you stick it out, it's going to be a good career choice.' Yeah, you know, construction — I mean, there's always construction going on. So it's just a matter of getting that message to people and

44:27making sure a generation of people know the opportunity in this industry. Because I know when I went to SMU, I was thinking, you know, marketing degree, white collar job — had that cocky college boy attitude. I can just imagine. Yes. And also I had a beard then? No, I didn't. No, baby face and a little less weight, so anyway. But it's one of those things where I kind of came out thinking, you know, you kind of

44:54think the world's gonna be handed to you, and all of a sudden it was a reality check for me. And then the opportunity came to come into this industry. So anyway, for me it's 15 years. And I'm sure there are a lot of long-standing people who would say, yeah, it's absolutely worth it. And it's something that, to me, whether you're in the trades or on the sales side or that

45:16sort of side, it's a good opportunity to come into construction, into landscaping and masonry. Yeah, that's a great living. I think it reminds me of — we had Darim Masonry on the show, I want to say it was the early part of last year. It wasn't Jeff, it was Daryl, and then Andrew Smith from the Atlantic Masonry Institute. And I just remember having a really good conversation with them. What you said too is true, Andrew, about —

45:42a lot of these guys are getting older, but that's not just true in masonry. Like you alluded to, Kevin — it's true in all the trades. And that's a big part of the labor shortage problem, where in the next six or seven years a lot of these guys are going to be retiring, and there's maybe not enough coming in the other end as far as apprentices. And when it comes to these trades — like, again,

46:07with masonry, people maybe don't realize the experience level working with these different products. It's an art form, right? But that goes for most trades too. And having that respect level for all these different trades — a lot of these guys have honed an art form over 10, 20 years. Is that knowledge being handed down? Because some of the stuff that Permacon and Stone

46:33Depot supply on the different lines — you look at it, you mentioned social media, and some of it is beautiful. It's very captivating, some of the different designs and different stone. It's almost like — you know, I'm kind of a hobbyist woodworker, but you're working with a product that comes from the forest. It's organic. There's so much different texture and wood grain. Same thing with stone — I find

46:58there's a lot of character to it. And where I'm going with this is — where am I going with

47:16it? No, but where I'm going with it is — it's a trade that takes a long time. And the fact that there's not enough people coming in the other end is a big problem. Even contractors are probably worried about that, because it doesn't matter how much technology or machines come into the situation — you're still going to need good masons. You're going to need them 10 years from now, you're going to need them 30 years from now. That's not going to change.

47:39Doesn't matter how many other things change — you're going to have equipment that helps you lift things and all that. But you still need masons. You still need that human element. It's not a dying trade, you know? It's just that maybe not enough people are being attracted to it or something. I think it has to be presented in a different way. That's one of those things I'm thinking of — you know, the big thing now is everyone wants to be an influencer,

48:02a social media influencer. It's hard — even my son, he wants to be a YouTuber, which, you know, as a maybe a little more old school guy, I'm just like, 'Come on, Max.' That's fine, you know, you gotta think outside the box. But we talk about social media — whether it's this podcast, whether it's Instagram, that sort of thing — you can certainly be an

48:24influencer in this sort of industry. Yeah. I was watching a video yesterday where a guy was basically testing out different polymeric sands. Now listen, that is the landscaping nerd in me watching that, but it's something exciting. But yeah, the guy did a really good job — he was based out of Pennsylvania, did a good job just presenting this. And people appreciate that. That gives you a chance to — lots of people would geek out on that. Oh, absolutely. Yeah. Like, yeah, I mean, that's

48:47in a positive way. No, absolutely. It's one of those things — there is that opportunity in construction to influence the industry, to kind of show what can come out of there. And companies like Permacon who are manufacturers are doing that on their

49:11social media feeds. And there are other contractors I see, whether it's local landscapers or landscapers all over North America — they're doing that, they're showing what they can design. Yeah. A local one I think of is Trim Landscaping — they do a good job of marketing and stuff. Yeah, please continue. Yeah. There are a few designers I've seen that I follow from the States — it's just amazing to see what they do

49:36with their products, and with various products. It's just inspirational. And it's something you can kind of — yeah, it is. And I think it's one of those things — even when I started in the industry, people were dismissive. 'Nah, that might work in Toronto or that might work in Boston or New York, but it doesn't work up here.' And now you have

49:55people going, 'Listen, we can do that — those products are available to us.' And so that's something that I think is, again, an opportunity that people can see. Listen, you want to be an influencer? That's great. It's not just fashion and clothes and that sort of thing. There is a chance to be an influencer in this industry. Absolutely. So yeah — work on your trade, and then use that to be that

50:19influencer in the market. Yeah. Anything to add to that? Because I think the way that — well, Kevin, you mentioned Permacon and the marketing department. I'm sure that's a whole engine in itself. We can talk about that. But even you, Kyle — coming into the Stone Depot and rebranding and working on some different things, and even your purpose of being here today and one of the reasons why

50:43we're trying to do the show — is along the same lines. But you are kind of trying to take what Stone Depot was and put a new image on it, a new feel, a new thing that might be more attractive or more contemporary. Correct. To try to bring it kind of up to speed. I felt that Stone Depot was a little bit — I almost say dated — and we were coined as just for natural stone, which I love. But current trends and the times call for a lot of precast,

51:10whether it's masonry or landscape. And yeah, that's what we tried to do was just bring it up to speed with what's going on today. But Andrew's 100% correct — we do need to try to push the trades more, whether you're doing an influencer style of thing. But yeah, for a trade it does have to be marketed and pushed a little differently so that not everybody thinks it's just grunt labor. Which is why I feel a lot of the young people are

51:37staying away from some of these jobs — because they do look difficult and they can be difficult, but when you know how to do it properly it's really not that bad. Yeah. It just needs to be promoted differently. The big thing I think is that landscaping has changed a lot over the years. It used to be one of those things where you think of — you know, I used to kind of joke around — I think I heard a

52:00stat at one point that a large percentage of people coming out of jail would go into landscaping. And so there was this view of — I mean I'd almost joke around going, 'Listen, two convicts and a ranger landscaping with a few rakes and a couple hockey sticks,' that sort of thing. But it's one of those things that has changed a lot. Guys have to

52:24change the way they present themselves. And there are a lot of guys out there doing that. I was at the Permacon Elevate seminar and I was very impressed with the number of young people there who looked, you know, clean-cut, professional — one of those things where they would fit in in a white-collar environment as well as a blue-collar one. And just yeah, that was encouraging to me. So there are

52:47people out there who see the need. So it's just a matter of making sure that we're doing our best in the industry to bring people along, to help them. Do you want to add anything to that, Kevin? You've been around for a while — is there anything kind of flowing around your mind as we're talking? Or you're like me and — yeah, there's really nothing going on up there. Just to comment on what Andrew said —

53:15Permacon tries to put on — other than the pandemic years — each year we try to put on an event that talks about our new products, so that we have a landscape contractor audience we can go to, present to, so they can touch and feel, see how the installation goes, and educate them on the products. So we've done that. This year we held it in Dartmouth and in Moncton and had contractors come out, launching new products, showing them what's

53:43coming. So it's — to have them come to that event is very important — to show that, okay, they know Permacon is creating products for a trend that's coming. It's allowing them to be aware and on the cutting edge, knowing what they're going to be looking for, probably be exposed to, and that homeowners will want installed in their landscape. So yeah. I don't know if I added that — no, you did. Yeah. It's got to be proactive, right? Yeah, absolutely.

54:13Absolutely. It's an interesting little conversation in the last ten minutes because it makes me think of different people we've had on the show — people who work on the sites, subcontractors, GCs, bigger ones like Lindsay Construction. I remember Corey Bell and Devin, and they were talking about just the feel of — maybe you come from a family where it's kind of expected that you go to university and you get a white-collar degree, whether it's in

54:40law or business or this or that. You know, just the way it kind of always was, or you're thinking about it as a kid. But how much are red seal carpenters making? How much are unionized masons making? And you know, these guys are making something. I mean, it's hard work, don't get me wrong, but they earn it, most of them. But man, these are good-paying jobs we're talking about. And if

55:07it's somebody who is in that key part of their development — maybe age 12 to 17 — and they do okay in school, they like school, but they just love being outside, love working with their hands, love building stuff — do they have a pressure on them that's keeping them away from that? Some of them, you know, probably — in the culture, in their thinking. And maybe having these kinds of conversations is a small way to help. I don't

55:36know if you've heard of Skills Canada? Yeah. Like, that's where they're trying to teach younger kids about all the trades and get in there at an early stage, so that kids are informed on what trades are available to them. Yes. Yeah, similar to what you just brought up — same kind of ideas, get them exposed to it. Yeah. Not just — the Nova Scotia Construction Sector Council does that, and there are lots of people who have that initiative.

56:02So I guess we're on to something — let's hope. Yeah, absolutely. For sure. So anything else, gentlemen, that we didn't touch on? I wanted to mention — I was looking through some of the Permacon product lines and stuff — rooftop terraces. It seemed to me — maybe I don't know if there's certainly nothing new in large cities, but look around Halifax, you see a lot of new buildings — they're having rooftop parties, and there's just some real nice stuff going on on that top floor, whether

56:30there's a pool involved too. But the stone and pavers and — like you guys mentioned, the whole outdoor room — on some of those upper-level spaces. Yeah. I think the days of rooftops being for utilitarian purposes are behind us. Yeah, they're making usable space. And by making usable space, they want to use pedestals, put pavers on it, put slabs on it, creating again an extension of the inside to the outside. So yeah, that's a big thing. Like all the large

57:00multi-units going up right now — there are patio areas, all those things they want to landscape, using slabs, using pavers, using planters, and outdoor kitchens and things like that on all those levels. Yeah. That's a big part of the businesses now — big part of the construction now, I should say. Yeah. Anything we didn't touch on, gentlemen? I know kind of a big thing is — and I feel like it's good for the industry

57:30— that another company of this nature is kind of moving towards the commercial space. I think there's lots of — so many projects, it's so busy — there's probably plenty of room for supply of masonry and landscaping products on commercial sites. Just on the pulse we have in Nova Scotia — I can't speak necessarily to other provinces — but it's got to be a good thing for people listening in. Our developers,

57:59architects, building and asset owners maybe doing retrofits, any contractors on the commercial side — hey, there's another company here to reach out to for pricing. Good track record, already supplying some of maybe the biggest project in the city right now. So yeah. For sure. Yeah. I mean, yeah, I think you're right, Dan — there's plenty of opportunity out there right now. Like, it's not just

58:26about getting your piece of the pie — it's also about growing the pie. And that pie is growing. Yeah. When the pie grows, listen, you've got to have — yeah, the traditional guys can't necessarily always keep up with that demand. So that's certainly where we're at, and we're pushing full steam ahead moving forward, trying to grow that commercial side of the business. So yeah. And we have — again, you mentioned the City of

58:51Fredericton — we have that job. But we certainly work with landscapers and contractors in New Brunswick, your former home province, and Newfoundland as well. So it's one of those things — do we do a ton of work in the other provinces? Not necessarily — we're one location in Halifax. But we can certainly serve those areas and we've done it in the past successfully. And I think most of the contractors who have dealt with us would find that — you're

59:15bringing a lot of stuff from Quebec from Permacon anyway — what's the difference if you've got to take it over to Newfoundland at the same time? Yeah, I think of a deal. Yeah, absolutely. So anyway, as the market grows here in Atlantic Canada, we're certainly a big player in that and we're certainly here to serve — serve Halifax, serve the different parts of the province, whether that's Northern Nova Scotia, Southern Nova

59:37Scotia, Cape Breton. And we've made our mark — what are we looking at? — almost 30 years now. And we're going to continue to do that, so yeah. Good things for the Stone Depot. Awesome. I know you won't know much about this, Andrew, but what do you guys think of the Mooseheads in the finals? Kyle, Kevin, Andrew? Yeah, saying your prayers? Yeah. Listen —

60:08guys — for anyone listening in, Andrew Pepper here is the chaplain of the Mooseheads. And they're in the finals here coming up, so it's exciting times. They do well this year — I mean, this is great. Absolutely. I kind of — you know, it's one of those things where — I'm with the boys. I'm very proud of them. One of the things I really think this year, kind of compared to other years — not, I mean, the 2013 team was before my time,

60:32but certainly I've seen a lot of great teams roll through that Halifax team. But I think the leadership, the coaching with this team — those guys are solid. They bring out the best in the guys. I mean, them being down 0–2 to Drummondville and everyone writing them off — and I really credit Sylvain and Brad McKenzie and Liam and Joey, and all the staff, for kind of getting them hyped up. When we were down games in the last round too — well, it was just — Sherbrooke was that series? Yeah. So

60:56yeah, basically — yes. One of those things where game one, you know, they had doubled us in shots. And then game two we lost in a heartbreaker. And anyway they go into Sherbrooke, win two there, and then four straight back — you know. So it was key to take the Quebec team in the long run. Get under

61:20Patrick Roy — that's my whole thing, man. I love his antics, man. So I've been at a game with him before and he just loses his — I have a beef with Patrick from 1993. I was a Nordiques fan growing up. I shouldn't say a personal beef with Patrick. Yeah, yeah, exactly. But in 1993 I was a Quebec Nordiques fan. I was there during a very tough time in Quebec, when they were — and so getting chirped by a lot of my friends who were Habs fans

61:49— and also, we come into the first round against the Canadiens — first time we'd been in the playoffs in like five years or something like that. And anyway, the Nordiques go up two games to nothing against the Canadiens in the first round. And I'm sitting there going, 'Listen, payback's coming, guys,' to all my Habs fans. And then Patty gets hot, you know — four — they lose four straight. Because they're gone — two years later the team is gone. Habs going to win the Stanley

62:13Cup. And I'm still bitter about that. So it's one of those things — those Quebec Nordiques jerseys though, those are vintage. I feel like I owe — if Sly and the boys win this, I feel like I owe them like a case of beer each or something like that — for giving me some vindication. You know, 13 or 14-year-old me — vindication in victory. So

62:38any final thoughts, guys? Covered a lot of ground, it's a great conversation. Andrew says it all. Yeah. I appreciate you guys all coming in today — Andrew Pepper and Kyle MacDonald with the Stone Depot, and Kevin McGinnis from Permacon. It's been a pleasure, great conversation. Really appreciate your time. Yeah. Thanks, Dan. And I want to say that I definitely appreciate what you're doing here at the Atlantic Construction Podcast. It's cutting edge — it's showing us, you

63:04know, that Atlantic Canada is a good place to be for construction. And I appreciate you taking your background and what you've made with this. So yeah, we really appreciate you too. Thanks so much for this opportunity. Awesome. Thanks, Andrew. Cheers, guys. This episode is brought to you by Cook Insurance, your trusted insurance broker in Atlantic Canada for 50 years. Insurance is complex, and the

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