Why Painters Are the Banks of Construction — and Why No One in Atlantic Canada Wants to Fix It | GT Painting

0:03All right, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Today's guest is Guillaume Tremblay, president and founder of GT Painting. Guillaume, thanks for joining us. Thanks for having me. Looking forward to our conversation. There's going to be lots of good topics that other subcontractors can relate to, and obviously someone like yourself — you've been in business for 15 years now in the HRM area — so maybe we'll just start by, you know, give us a little background about yourself and how you got GT

0:33Painting off the ground. Well, I started — my grandfather was a painter, then my dad was a painter, and I was trying to run away from painting as far as I could. So I came to Halifax to go to Saint Mary's University for accounting, and while I came here I ended up working for another local company who decided — he said, I think it's in your best interest to just open up your own thing and I'll subcontract your work — and I was like, yeah, sure, sounds good to me.

1:00And then did that for about two years while I was in university. You didn't take one of those university courses in paint like so many people do? I attended it and walked out because I knew too much — information that was already being talked to me. So after that I ended up going to work for actually Citco, in financial services, and two years into that I just realized that the paint industry was calling me again. So ended up leaving and ended up getting into a

1:26partnership with another individual, and then in 2014 we kind of incorporated and things really took off from there. So when did you take a leap from residential into commercial, at some point? Yeah, about two or three years in. We were growing quite significantly — year after year, almost doubling in size as we were going through — and then got introduced to somebody who kind of opened my eyes to what the

1:53commercial industry could do. So that's when things again just went to a whole other level. That was not planned, not intended, but kind of just — I guess I'm a sucker for punishment and for the challenge to try new things and learn new things. So what year was that, when you kind of started bidding on the tenders for commercial? Would it be around 2016, 2017, in that area? Yeah. I think I remember crossing paths on a few jobs there. Yeah, Doubletree Hotel and the

2:21H&M, yeah, when you made your way into Halifax — we connected quite a bit on a few projects. So yeah. And you do some work in other provinces as well, do you still? Yeah, we still dabble a little bit in New Brunswick, but it's usually very specific projects that we'll take on that will be out of province. So yeah, we tend to stay in mainland Nova Scotia overall. And so when you first, you know, got into commercial and you're bidding

2:45on the bigger tenders — and what was, you know, some of the big challenges? Obviously labour costs, and you're not unionized. I know there's very few painters that are. There is a painters union here, yeah, in Halifax. But I'm sure there were a few particular things that were — I mean, just the scale of the jobs — terrifying? Yeah, it was absolutely terrifying. The first award I got, I forget, was about a seven-thousand-dollar job and I just thought

3:10that was the biggest thing in the world, right? And it's funny over time how you kind of get numb to the numbers and just realize that it's all relative at the end of the day. It's all to scale. Yeah. So, you know, early on I think I was a little bit oblivious to how the industry worked, so you're kind of the newbie in town, everyone's kind of interested in who you are and what you're doing, so there was a

3:33lot of opportunities that came by and we got invited to a lot of tenders and projects and stuff like that. But there was a massive learning curve that I kind of wasn't aware of and had found out along the way of how it all worked. So yeah, it was definitely challenging. That's a good question, and I think just to give some context to our listeners — now I mean, currently you're doing a project, because you're saying $7,000 seemed like

3:58a big leap at the time — and it would, from a residential perspective — but now you're in a project like, half a million in some cases. Yeah. So tell us a little bit about the structure of your company now. Like, you transitioned into commercial from residential around 2017, five years later — what's your team look like now? A full-time estimator, how many men on site — all that kind of stuff, just for some context. So in our

4:27peak we almost reached 40. We had two project managers, one estimator, and then a whole bunch of painters and leads on site. So things shuffled over the years — we've kind of dabbled in different departments. We always had residential, that was kind of our bread and butter from the start, and I never really completely gave up on that side of things. But we then dabbled a lot into commercial, and then after that we kind of

4:56slowly got into multi-res, and lately that's been something that we've been keeping at a steady pace but not consuming our time. But right now I feel like we have probably the best mix of all three, and it's kind of helped us out — especially with the pandemic and everything, with commercial kind of slowing down a little bit — everything else just kind of kept going strong. So how do you find, currently and in the past, skilled labour in painting? I know

5:28you don't see a lot of young people getting into it. I know there are certain trades that will have a lot of training with apprenticeship programs — painting doesn't have one set up yet, there's no pathway to do that. Just talk a little bit about that. It's by far the biggest pain that I think all of us are feeling right now. You never know what you're getting because there's no accreditation, there's no program to say okay, I spent X amount

5:57of years doing this. Having the number of years you've been painting on a resume doesn't mean it's good. So you're challenged on that, and then there's just nothing to really dictate how good a painter is by looking at a resume. We're forced at the end of the day to try to give everybody a try, and it's creating a lot of issues, because you know overall the industry is full of people who I would say probably didn't choose

6:29painting — painting chose them. They didn't say, oh, I want to be a painter for my career. It's not something that is encouraged because there's no course, there's no program, besides the Red Seal. And the Red Seal problem right now is that it's only educational, online — it's not a hands-on course where you can actually be in person and physically do the work. So you don't have any of that to go off of. It's a shot in the dark and you can't really figure out what

6:57you're getting until you actually try it out. It's probably our biggest headache that I think we're all feeling right now. In your 15-year journey, how's retention? It's been horrible. The thing that happens with painting is, nine times out of ten, the minute you become good you go off on your own and start doing your own thing — because there's more money to be made, which is understandable. But to build a career off of that,

7:25you can't find people who want to dedicate their career to this. We're trying to change that, we're trying to do things differently to try to keep people and show them that there's a path here if they want to stay with us. But the industry here is one of the most competitive in Canada — we've been told that by paint companies in the city. And you're talking about HRM specifically? Yeah, HRM overall in Canada is probably the most competitive

7:54paint industry — not just for price points, for pricing, but also for the cost of paint. Every time I have a meeting with our reps they always say they can't believe how low things are here compared to everywhere else across Canada. So that combined with what you're trying to pay people to stay on board and make it a career path, and the pressures you feel from being underbid and everything else together — it makes it extremely difficult to make a successful career out of it

8:24at the end of the day. Yeah. Who's your competition? Twin City Painting, Mark Curry Painting, a few others — Capital Painting? Yeah, so there's five — probably more than that overall. There's always newcomers that come around as well that we compete against. But on the commercial end there's probably around 10 overall that we really compete against non-stop. It's always one of your priorities to, you know, gain relationships with quality developers so you can jump from one building to the next on

8:59projects where you're getting paid on time and you're able to price the work at a reasonable amount to stay away from the public tenders. How competitive is everything? That's the hard part. There's no escape, and I know I'm not the only one who feels this pain, but there's always someone who seems to be willing to do it for so much cheaper than you. So it's a continuing

9:25race to the bottom at the end of the day. I really found — at first I thought that building relationships with these people was so important, so vital, to keep the work coming. And if you treat them good, you know, you take care of them, they'll take care of you again. And then reality really sinks in a few years in and you realize that it's not always the case.

9:52Quite often it's just, you've got to be the cheapest and you've got to bend over and accommodate as much as you can, and if you can't do that they'll find the next guy who will. And there's always someone else who will. And maybe they're cycling in and going through the same journey that you did, just a few years behind. Yeah, my thought process — and I'm going to generalize it — but you

10:16know, the frustration, the pain that a lot of us feel, is that we are the banks of the construction industry. The sub-trades as a whole — I can say specifically painting because of me — but we put out the labour, we put out the material, and we kind of sit and wait and hope that the money is going to flow on time. And we're always the last to get paid. If you want to put it in perspective — yeah,

10:40the client pays the general contractor, who pays the subcontractor. So there's that, and then you've also got to be competitive to get the job, plus you have to fight for all your extras. A lot of things have changed over the years. We had a gentleman who worked for us who's been in it for about 50 years, and he talked a lot about back in the day — how things were — and a lot of

11:02things that they never used to do because that wasn't part of their scope of work. As the years progressed, a lot of these things got piled up on our scope of work, and then the price has gone down. So it's made it very, very challenging to try to maintain, and if you haven't been in the industry long enough and you don't have that financial backing to survive, it puts a lot of pressure — just to get through. I think we should keep

11:27going on this topic, but just before we do — for some context for our listeners — as a commercial painting company, talk a little bit about what your scope consists of. Obviously you're prime and paint, but you're also doing some coatings and wall vinyl. I hate pricing that stuff, by the way — it's like you never get the measurements right. Yeah, it's probably the most challenging, frustrating thing. No matter how thorough you do it, and if

11:54you screw up it's expensive. Yeah, or you have to order more — from Europe to Toronto to here. Yeah. We've installed a wallpaper that was almost $500 a yard, so to put it in perspective a powder room was over five thousand dollars, just for a tiny little powder room. It was a graphic wall vinyl, it was just a

12:17piece of art, pretty much. So, you know, you just don't know what you're handling half the time. There's a lot of pressure. So what else, for your scope? A lot of the caulking, for example, got passed on — all of a sudden the expectation is that we're talking on the residential side too — and you know, filling nail holes and patchwork, and people damaging what we do and us

12:45expected to fix it and redo it for nothing. Everything kind of turned into the expectation that we're just going to fix it — the painters will fix it, the painters will fix it — and it's the trickle-down effect. Back in the day you used to be able to charge back for deficiencies, because if you didn't do the damage then it shouldn't be on you. But now it's expected that we should have that in our scope of work

13:09and include that in our price to fix up the damage. But in reality, how does one know what the damage will be? So that's proven very challenging and frustrating — I know for myself and a lot of other painters I talk to. Well, you know, I think that's an issue for all finishing trades. Like, you know, especially how to distinguish between deficiencies and trade damage. But it also comes down to lack of respect. And listen, I

13:37know the paint industry is hit or miss with what you're going to get at the end of the day, so you almost have to carry some kind of cushion in your numbers when you know that everyone's walking over each other. So the respect from other trades to the painters — when that doesn't exist, the respect doesn't exist, it again adds another layer of complications to try to have people who want to be in this industry. Because they'll walk in and

14:02know that nobody's going to care about what they do. If you work hard and try to do a nice job and someone's just going to come and destroy it — it's a sinking feeling for them, to have to redo and redo things over and over again. It is a lack of respect. Yeah, and it's tough. I see it on our painters who have come and gone, who just couldn't take

14:21it anymore and either went elsewhere where they didn't have to deal with this side of the business — meaning back to residential? Yeah, back to residential or back to another company that didn't do commercial or didn't do new construction. They just couldn't take it. It's a lot to take on. Because the ones who take pride in what they do and work hard for it, and then someone just comes and ruins it — it's

14:44a deflating feeling, to say that I just did that but now I have to redo it all over again. Yeah. And I think it's great that you're willing to come on and tell your story and talk about your experience in the industry as a subcontractor. I think you're speaking for a lot of subcontractors right now. And I also think that one of the things about the show is to have, you know, generals and developers, architects, engineers, subcontractors, so you're getting a lot

15:10of different perspectives. And you're shedding light on what it's really like. And I know there's people out there listening that are in the drywall trade and the millwork trade that are listening to you now and picking up everything that you're saying. Yeah, no — I think for us it's just about feeling like we're just as important as the last guy, and it should just be one after the next to feel that way. That

15:36we're not undervalued because we didn't get four years of education or three years of education to get some sort of certificate that says we're — you know, I would like that to happen. Because for me that would be the next step of showing that we're dedicated to our craft, we've put the time and energy, we want to be good at what we do, and that certification would prove that we are painters and we're certified and we're

16:00willing to do good work. But that would also gain respect from other people — that we do care and we're not just here to slap some paint on the wall, like I've heard so many times. You know, we've had some big guests on the show, but this is — I think for me personally — one of the most interesting topics to talk about. Because we all talk about collaboration, and obviously that's what construction has come to now at the commercial level:

16:28it's major collaboration on every level. But like always, human beings organize themselves into hierarchies — that's how things work. Yeah, and systems. And you're right — some people see themselves as more equal than others within that hierarchy. But every job has a painting scope. Yeah, most do. And it's as necessary as the structural steel, as necessary as the drywall and the flooring, and nine times out of ten that's the one that

17:05stands out the most when it's done — it's the one you see. When the paint goes on is when people are like, oh this looks great. So the next thing I want to bring up, because similar to other finishing trades, you have this hierarchy that we just mentioned, and then you have a general contractor who has a priority relationship with the client — front-facing the client — that's the relationship that has the schedule and the budget and they're talking to them every day.

17:34But in order to feed that relationship and make it a positive one, they've got to have good relationships with all the subs that are under them. And you're the last one at the end of the day on that job — you're right at the end of the schedule that's probably already gone over schedule most times. You're not pouring the foundation and then you're out of there. Yeah, so you are the last — and not only the finished product visually, but you're the last

18:00trade to leave the site. So you're taking it on the head. Oftentimes we're backed into a corner on projects because if the project goes well beyond the expectation, we have to rush and pile people on at all costs to make sure the schedule is met. So quite often we've been backed into a corner — they say, you have to, this is your fault, because someone three months ago didn't meet their schedule, and we're expected

18:27to just throw as many people as we can to rush the job and get it done on time at all costs. And if they don't, they threaten to bring someone else in. So it's a very deflating feeling. My biggest thing with what I want to do and who I want to work with is I want to find people to build relationships with. And we have some — I'm not saying this is an overall thing — but we have some

18:50really good clients who actually care about how we do things, how we schedule things, and try to work with you. Because at the end of the day we all want to work together. I don't think there's anybody who doesn't want to work together. We're not generalizing here — we're talking about what you experience. So yeah. But more often than not, what happens — and I don't want to judge — but

19:14there's been such a focus on project managers and project coordinators. There are programs out there to produce those, but a lot of these people might not have the on-site experience they need to understand what it takes to meet a timeline. So they were taught how to create a schedule but in reality don't understand the steps it takes to get there. So you deal with a lot of that as well, and there's a lot of

19:39pressures created from that. To me it's always been about how people communicate with each other as well, because a lot of times how people approach us matters. Like, hey, listen, we'd really need the help here — any chance you could bring some people on? For us that always feels better than someone saying, I need this many people tomorrow. And you're like, what? Yeah — you don't hear from someone for two weeks and all of a sudden they

20:02want five or ten painters on site. Yeah. So it's been a roller coaster ride of experience for the last six, seven years of doing commercial work. There's been some good ones, but there's been a lot of challenges along the way. And like you brought up earlier, collecting money has always been probably one of the most difficult things. Let's talk about your experience with payment. Well, you

20:27know, there's a wide range. There are projects that we've waited and waited and waited. I'm not going to lie — there's one project we waited over a year for to get our final payment to come through. On 30-day terms? Yeah. So, you know, we're a larger painting company but we haven't been in the business that long, so that kind of pressure on our finances really stretches us and makes it difficult. So you kind of have

20:54to do everything you can to try to survive at the end of the day. It kind of always makes you question, should we keep doing what we're doing the way we're doing it? And what's the draw? I enjoy commercial because of the I-did-that factor — like, the experience. Like, you and I worked on several projects — Halifax Shopping Centre, yes. It was just like, it's a great feeling, I did that.

21:19But then there's everything else on the other side that poses a lot of challenges, and I feel like there are better ways to do it. Yeah, I think you're really speaking for all subcontractors — they're going to relate to this too. It is the situation most times that the GC is waiting for the client, the owner, to pay, and then you get paid. And usually that's not the problem — it's when the money is held

21:46up, and then you have someone like you at the end of the day carrying the weight of that cash flow process. Waiting a year is not — and the GC gets the glory, which I don't need, but at the same time I just want to be taken care of to get to that point where they can take all the glory of having their name tied to that. Because we don't get our names tied to that — we know it internally,

22:09every project that happened in the city — there's not a list of people like, these are all the people that worked here and got this job done on time. So I think it's creating that relationship where people want to work together — that's key to who's going to have a successful project. And that's the challenge of tender work that I think the majority of us feel — it's the race to the bottom. I've

22:34heard that so many times. Yeah. I'm sure you've thought many times — you know, I've had enough. And you go through it, especially after a really bad experience. I'm sure it only takes one bad project to all of a sudden put a massive strain on everything that goes on. I don't think people outside the industry, or that haven't walked in those shoes, would understand just how much you carry that with you for like a whole year. Oh yeah. And it makes it hard to

22:56do anything else and continue positive things — it just drains all the energy from you, mentally. Yeah. But I guess you have to pick and choose what you want to do. For us, let's find that balance. Part of it is, obviously, you're going to steer away from projects you don't think will be positive, or whether it's someone that you don't want to bid with, or if it's too

23:24big for your workforce — there are those decisions. But I guess when you forge those relationships that you like, those are the ones you really want to keep the ball rolling with through the years. Absolutely. So our biggest thing is to focus on the relationships that really matter — during the day, when we're done, they go, thank you so much for that, pat on the back, and we'll see you on the next one. That's what keeps us

23:46motoring along and wanting to keep doing what we're doing. It's that connection, that feeling, that appreciation. And then we want to over-deliver because of that appreciation. To me that's the only way it can work where everyone feels like they can get what they want out of it. Because without that, why are we doing what we're doing? So yeah — we were talking earlier about a couple of jobs that you just finished. One that you're currently on — Mumford Grove

24:09for Dexel — and Glen Arbor for RCS — and those are going really well. Yeah, we've got some really good projects on the go. We just wrapped up The George as well, with Dexel. That was — so would that be one of the larger painting jobs by volume? Yeah, so some of the largest painting jobs we've done so far have been with Dexel. This Mumford's our second one with them, and it's been actually a really good

24:35experience. So how many guys on site, for how long — what's the schedule and manpower? There's a fluctuation based on how we move up through the building, but right now we're averaging about a floor a week. So you have a crew running between five to seven depending on which floor we're on, because different floors have different numbers of units. But that process is really important too — when you're in a building like that, to be able to

24:58fluently flow from floor to floor takes a lot of organization. And you're right behind the steel stud and sheathing guys, and when the organization is spot on it makes our life so much more organized and planned out — you know exactly what you're facing. So scheduling is huge at the end of the day. We must have been there for what — six? We started back in, I think it was November, or

25:31late October, early November. Okay. And that will probably run until the end of next summer — this summer, sorry. Yeah. The George took us just over a year from when we started to when we took off. So yeah, I think you know those forms — and in the steel stud and drywall trade — they really drive the architectural schedule, so they're so fortunate, hopefully, dealing with all these other trades, you know,

26:02whether it's sprinkler, plumbing, and then moving that along from floor to floor. And if someone is doing it well, it's almost like you don't even notice it — but you would notice when someone doesn't do it well. Everybody has to play their part, right? And how big a role that is — everyone has to play their part because if one trade doesn't keep up, the next one hurts. So it's always like I said — having that flow, that organization, that planning, that commitment to say, we're going to stay

26:30on schedule, stay on target — is key to running through that building. But I don't think most owners of buildings understand how crucial those positions are to getting their building open. I mean, you know, Dexel, RCS — these companies are working with that client, they're the front-facing client. But it's the sub-trades — if these guys are really gifted at their positions, that's what's getting that building open when they want it. Hopefully. Absolutely. Yeah, you know,

26:56and I think there are people out there working on building those relationships with the ones they feel they succeed with. Because at the end of the day, the value of that — especially for someone like Dexel, who's building something of that magnitude — if they don't have the right person, the right trade in place, that impacts the timeline, impacts financials, impacts everything. So finding those right people to work

27:19with — having that — is key for a successful project. And then you're on another Dexel site now at Mumford. Yeah, and powering through as much as we can. And I'm sure there'll be one to hop to after that — hopefully you keep the ball rolling. Yeah. Talk a little bit about the lack of respect and the problem with what happens on site, where guys are

27:51under the gun all the time. You've got to move fast or someone's going to tell you about it, at least within 24 hours if you're not keeping up to the pace. And sometimes you're not paying attention enough, especially at the end of a day when the job's getting close to being finished. And then they might see the painting trade as not as important as theirs, or whatever mentality they have. But do you

28:16think the answer is on site? I'm just thinking about solutions, because I'm guessing that you've experienced this from 2015 to 2017 and you're still experiencing it — like, I'm guessing it's not getting any better. No, I don't think a whole lot has changed, because there's been no effort or emphasis to try to change anything. My biggest thing is, for example, damages to what we do — if people knew that there would be some form of

28:52accountability on their part for doing that — and that's what used to be — if trades did damage to that, there'd be a back-charge to them, and all of a sudden they wouldn't do it. But that doesn't exist anymore. So when people at the top are just saying it doesn't matter, the guy at the bottom is going to take care of it, then the expectation is that well, I don't have to be careful, I don't have to

29:18do things to make sure these things don't happen. So having that accountability from the start — it starts from the top — just saying that everybody gets taken care of. It'd be no different than if I go and cut a wire from an electrician and be like, oops, and then they have to come replace it for free. I guarantee you I'm going to get a phone call saying, here's your bill for cutting that wire

29:44and we have to replace it. But if we get a damaged wall it's like, well, that's you — you should have that in your quote to fix that. So that's not working both ways, that's what I'm saying. How many times have I said — if we get paint on a piece of millwork we've got to go clean it up. But if we damage the millwork, I'll get a back-charge to have them fix it. It doesn't — it's not — no, the millwork

30:08guys don't expect to go clean the paint we get on their millwork. So how do you balance that out? To me that's the starting point — it doesn't matter what we do, what we do doesn't matter, people can do whatever they want to our finishes and it's just whatever. So that is the kind of starting point of that respect — of treating us as equals. That's something contractual that should be in place to avoid

30:34that. Say, look, no more of this. It's just small things like that that can start it off, right? And if it's left up to the subs to take care of it themselves, then maybe that would work best — say, hey, look, you know, we're both in this. But those things don't exist. So what happens is that nobody cares, because why would they? It doesn't matter if they take their

31:02time or are cautious about anything — at the end of the day we have to eat it up, and that's okay, right? Those are just a small example of what could be done to start gaining a bit more respect for what we do on site. My whole thing is trying to encourage people to join the industry, because a good paint job shows. Having somebody who's dedicated to their craft and wants to do a good job — it shows

31:27everywhere. That's probably again our biggest struggle — finding people who want to be painters, who like being a painter, and want to show up every day because that's just what they enjoy doing. So when you go on site and the respect's not there, that just puts a damper on it. When you know the education is not there and the training is just expected to happen from the company they go work for — and then everybody learns differently

31:51and everyone has their different ways of doing things that they learn over time. So having a set standard that the industry as a whole follows through — like I said, that's part of the education side — I think would again help towards that. I think it would be psychological too. It would be like, well hey, this is the same as every other trade. He's not just the buddy down the road who bought his brushes and his pan and

32:15is a painter now. Yeah. Because people see that — they see flooring, and commercial drywall, and wall and ceiling — and they think, well, I'll just do that myself. Well, yeah, if you have a little project, sure. But if you want to do that commercially and you haven't done it for 10 years, you can't be trusted to run or look after it. So yeah, like I said, there's a lot of things just missing. And I'm sure we're not the only trade that

32:38feels what we're feeling. But I think there's some change that needs to exist — that, if there's a way to solve that, it would help with the workforce. Is there communication? I know this happens with a lot of other subs — you might think they're your competitors and you're bidding against them all the time and it's so tight and everything is

32:59a race to the bottom. But it does happen that a lot of subs will talk to each other. There are obviously other commercial painting companies you're competing with — what's the communication like? Are you in touch with these people? Are you saying, hey, we've got to go talk to someone at the province and get an apprenticeship program started here — how come no one's done that? We've talked about it a lot. I do try to maintain

33:21relations with everybody, because we're such a small community here that there's no point in having enemies over what we do. There's enough work for everybody, so I never feel the need to make enemies on that side. So we talk about these issues a lot with the other painting companies and we discuss these things. But I guess there's not enough action being taken, and again me just coming here today and

33:46having my opportunity to speak is just kind of maybe a starting point for me to express that — I think there's a need for change in the city about how this trade functions. And maybe this will be the start of more people speaking up and making a push towards something, because back in the day — again, we have another gentleman that works for us that took school for painting as a trade. Right,

34:10in education in Nova Scotia — I don't know how long it was, but it was significant, maybe 20 years ago. But there was something. And that guy was a phenomenal painter. So there is value in that. There is value in teaching that can level up everybody. So I hope that Ebenezer is listening from the Apprenticeship Agency, because I know he's mentioned before — where would we do the training? Would we

34:41do it at the Glaziers and Painters union hall? Would we do it at an NSCC campus? Where do we set up? So I know he's talked about it before. I think, like I said, I would love to see it and be part of it. Because — I don't know, I always said way back when I started in the painting industry — I always felt something different about what I wanted to do. I felt there was something missing in the painting industry that didn't

35:06exist. And maybe it was a bit of professionalism and respect. And I was like, maybe I can start to transition things. I'll tell you, it opened my eyes about everything that was going on. But it's not pretty. No, it's not pretty. And I wonder if everywhere else feels the same thing, but I know from talking with people in other places that it seems worse here for some reason, and I

35:35can't pinpoint why. So I always fall back to — it's the education, the training that is key. Yeah. It's almost like someone like you would be one of the best ways to solve that problem — if somebody like yourself, with your reputation, just as well as I know you, is in that industry. That's what it takes — strong leaders and people that will change the image. Because I think that may be where the problem needs to be solved.

36:00It's hard. If it could be solved on site, it would have been solved by now. So it's more about the image — how are people perceiving what it means to be in those architectural trades? What they think and how they view it — as far as status, it's not what really goes on. People in the industry who are on site, they know when you have a good crew there, and they appreciate it, hopefully.

36:27But I think it's the outside image and how it's viewed. And I think that's one of the best parts of having the opportunity for people like you to come and tell your story — these are the voices that's what we're here for, is to hear from everybody and understand that it's not all just, let's talk about all the great things that are going on, because there are lots of things that need to be improved upon. And I think there are a lot of people who

36:56don't want to speak up and just accept things as they are, because they think if they speak up they're suddenly not going to get the work. But if for some reason we all gathered up and agreed that it's time for change, I think it would be a good shift for where we want to go with everything. I think in everything

37:18that upsets people in your situation, it's when somebody thinks, well, I'll just start a drywall company, or a millwork company, or a painting company, and it can't be that hard. And then you start to drive the prices lower and you realize, geez, this isn't as easy as I thought. And then you're kind of upsetting the market. I think that happens a lot. And I can't defend that a whole lot, because I

37:44was one of them. So at some point I guess you have to do that to start your journey. But a lot of them don't last 15 years like you did. No, that's fair. But I think people — there's a bit of a, let's take advantage of that — because if everyone said, all of a sudden, well, maybe I am charging too low here,

38:08maybe I need to really look at what the industry needs and where we need to be. Yeah. Because with the cost of living not going down anytime soon, there's no reason why, with inflation and everything else we're feeling right now, painting should still be where it is today. So are you seeing that lately, with how busy we are locally — that the prices are in a healthy place, margin-wise, for you to continue on and do well on projects? I

38:37think it's always a fight. It's always been a fight, I think it'll always be a fight, because there's always somebody out there who's going to say, oh well, I'll just take it on for that. And then sometimes they find a way to get it done, or they miss something in the takeoff. Yeah, exactly — you have to find a way to get it done. And like I said, that's part of healthy competition too, I'm not going to take that away. But I think like I

38:58said, as a whole, I feel like everybody could be higher up and work their way up on that end. So where do you see things going for you currently? Where are some of your goals for the next three to five years? I know you've made a few changes — I was out to see your new office. Yeah, where is it? We're in Upper Tantallon. Yeah, I live close to there, so

39:23it just made sense to be close to home. New kid at home — so three now, right? Three kids, it's madness. All girls? Nope — two boys and a girl. Yeah. Two dogs and a cat too, so it's just a packed house. Yeah, I can imagine. No, but for us, you know, a little bit of reflection over the past year — one of our busiest years — I want to spend more time doing what I really enjoy

39:50doing best. Residential has always been something I've had the most passion for, because that's what I started with and that's what I've learned my whole life. So we want to start introducing some different things that aren't here right now. There are a couple of courses I'm going to take back in April on a high-end product that I don't think is very common here — in paints, or so — I'm just going to dabble in that and try to learn something different.

40:22And that product is just like a high gloss, but there's a difference — it's the level of quality you need to apply it that doesn't exist here. The level of skill, you mean? Yeah, level of skill, and it's not a two-part, three-coat prime-and-paint. It's probably a 12-step process to get to where you need to get. It's more like epoxy flooring or something? Well, beyond that. It's

40:53troweled on the wall — no, it's plywood? No, it's brush and roller, actually more brush than roller, but spray as well. It just requires a lot of level of detail and understanding about prep work and how to create a perfect, uniform finish. There are definitely companies in the city who've used it and dealt with it, but I want to try to make it part of our business, that we can offer something at an extreme high

41:21end. And also we've been looking at adding pool coatings as part of our list of things we can take on. We've had several requests and we've done some in the past, but I want to try to get that certification so we can take it to the next level. So you have done some pool coatings? Yeah. Hotels, or no — personal residences? Okay. Yeah. So what does that look like — is

41:45it kind of like an epoxy? Yeah, it's a lot of epoxy, and again, same thing — a lot of prep work. Sprayed on? No, we do a roll application. Okay. But there are several ways to apply it, so with the certification we're looking to get, we'll learn different ways of doing it with different types of product too. So yeah, we're trying to expand a bit more on our higher-end residential side and really put an emphasis on that.

42:09We still have our multi-unit side and also some commercial, but again we're going to try to focus our attention on relationships that are to our advantage right now and that are really in it for us. And I think that will be kind of a better outlook. So that product you just mentioned — that's not a commercial product that you'd see spec'd — that's something you're going to use for homes? Correct, high-end homes. Yeah. Do you do some high-end homes as well? Yeah, some relationships there. These must

42:35be good projects. Yeah, we've got some good relationships with some good builders in the city who have really taken care of us, and that's something we want to keep focusing on and putting a lot of attention on that side of things. I always find it fascinating — the coatings and the product you just mentioned — and it kind of ties into EIFS and stucco and epoxies and different floor coatings and deck coatings. There are so many different products, it's hard to

42:58price in the specs, because you're looking for an alternate a lot of times, you can't find one, you're not sure — it's just tough. You really have to know your products. There are so many products out there, so many — you have to really know what's going to work, and there's so much you don't even know. Yeah, it's like once you start looking you realize there are so many options out there for whatever. So yeah, you just kind of got to pick and

43:20choose one and really dedicate yourself to it based on how it treats you, I guess. Yeah, and learn that. Because even for just residential painting, we are a certified installer — it's very easy for us to get locked on a product and we don't want to change from it, because we're so used to it, we've used it over and over again, it's done everything that we wanted it to do. So for someone trying to persuade us to go somewhere else, it's very difficult because we're just

43:44dead set on that product. Yeah. Well, this has been a great conversation. We touched on a lot of ground. I really hope that a lot of subcontractors will tune in, and I know they're going to relate to a lot of the topics that you're mentioning. They're ongoing frustrations for everybody, and there's no quick or easy answer to it either. It's not like — like I said, I think some of the

44:12stuff would have been solved by now if — you know, it has to do with relationships and respect. Yeah. Just great topics for me to listen to as well. So, anything else you want to touch on for GT Painting, or anything you want to mention before we wrap things up? No, I just appreciate you having me here and talking about this, because it's been something that's been discussed over and over,

44:40but for the first time I'm coming out in the open about it. So I hope that this will be the starting point of maybe a few more people trying to speak up and just try to create positive change overall. It's not here to cause issues, but to just try to create the next step of good relationship building, and have people work together rather than against each other all the time. Yeah, well, thank you for coming on, doing this, and having

45:07the courage to do it. And like you said, speak up and try to create some positive change — because I think that's what it takes to at least move forward with some of these issues. Absolutely, it takes courage. Thanks for doing it — it's been a pleasure. Any time. Cheers, thanks so much. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to follow us on any podcast platform you use. You can also find us on LinkedIn and

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