How Lindsay Construction Grew 7x Without Losing Control — Cory Bell & Devin Hartnell

0:03Welcome to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. This episode is brought to you by our new presenting sponsor Payzant Building Products. Payzant Building Products owns seven Home Hardware locations in the HRM and one location in New Brunswick. Each location is equipped with a lumber yard which can collectively supply any project. Enjoy the episode. All right, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Today we are very honored to have Lindsay's Construction. We have Cory Bell, CEO, and Devin Hartnell, CEO — thanks so much for doing this, guys, and for

0:34being here with us. Thanks for having us. Great. First order on the agenda — what's your thoughts on the playoffs so far? We're one weekend in. I took Florida in my hockey pool so not very happy about that. I'm all in on the Panthers and they're not looking so good right now. Now that's not the best. Lots of great hockey though. Lots of great hockey out there. It's fun. 100%. Yeah, big Oilers fans. So far not off to the greatest start but I think they're

1:05going to rebound. And there's some good Canadian content this year, so hopefully one of the teams will be able to make a run. 100%. I think from what I see online you've got one of the best backyard rinks in the province — if I'm correct. We do. We both have a great backyard rink, actually. Thanks for that. We did our first one, maybe when my son was

1:28four — so about 11 or 12 years ago — and every year it gets a little better. Man, we've had some of the best memories of our kids growing up. You've got five, right? Yeah. And then for you, Cory? I have a couple — yeah, I have two. Yeah, sometimes four, but I have two originally anyway. Lots of fun. Same thing. My son Victor, he's 17 now, so he's had it since he was four years old. And yeah, the boys — it gets easier and easier

1:57because they get older and older and they start looking after themselves. Those are fond memories for a lot of people — these girls and boys growing up playing backyard hockey. This is the best. Every now and then the boys will get out too, right? Grab a couple beers and have some little three-on-three out on the outdoor rink. It's a lot of fun. So yeah, diving into Lindsay's — Cory, you've been there since 1999. In 2009 you became the president. I think it's an interesting journey

2:21with yourself — trickling through a lot of different roles and then landing as president. Just talk a little bit about your journey at Lindsay's and how you got to where you are today. Yeah, you know, '99 to 2009, that was interesting. Came on fresh out of university as a bit of a mature student, I guess. I went back to school to do my engineering. Where'd you go? Dal. Okay, yeah. I guess I was one of the

2:47last Dal grads back in '99 — might have been their last year. Your friend Renee said the same thing. Yeah, we graduated together, my good buddy Renee. For sure. Anyway, I was working in the industry with another company. I grew up in construction, so I was working as a laborer and I moved my way up through the ranks. Was with an earthworks company at the time called Elliott Excavators, and Lindsay's reached out and asked me if I

3:12wanted to take a pay cut and move to Liverpool for a two-month contract. I'm like, yeah, sweet — and I did it. It was awesome. So I moved to Liverpool and I worked as a project engineer to start out, and then went through the ranks. Came back — project engineer, project manager. I did some estimating, worked through our small jobs group, vice president of operations, and then came on into the ownership group and became president a couple years later. So it was a quick journey. It

3:45was a little bit like speed dating — you know, tried out everything quickly. Exactly. So it was a great journey. A lot of great people there through the times to kind of help you get through it, and different people in the industry both within our walls and outside of our walls that kind of helped me along the way and gave me some good guidance. Yeah, that's got to be a unique experience when you're dealing with a management team that's answering

4:06to you — just to have that experience of each person's facet in the company. Yeah, it really is. And we had a lot of great experienced people, in particular out in the field — our superintendents and such — that have been building their whole lives. And I took a lot of time to spend time with them, learn from them, and listen to them. Show up to the site with a cup of coffee — it's amazing what you learn by handing someone a cup. Yeah, and

4:28just be a sponge, listen to them, and let them tell me what to do. It really was probably one of the biggest reasons I ended up where I am today. Awesome. About yourself, Devin — a Bachelor of Engineering from Michigan Technological University and an MBA from SMU. Just tell us a little bit about your journey at Lindsay's. Shortly after — I think the gentleman to your left, to your right — brought you on board. Yes. He likes to brag that he hired me, which

4:54he did. I'm from Alberta — born and raised in Saskatchewan, Alberta. Went down to Michigan Tech University, played hockey there, had a Division I college scholarship. So I wasn't really drawn to the construction industry or engineering in general — I just went because I had a hockey scholarship to go to a tech university and figured I might as well take an engineering degree since that's what they're most known for. Graduated there in 2000 and played

5:30hockey again for a couple years after. My now-wife — I'd met her at Michigan Tech; she was doing her master's degree, then got a spot at the University of Texas in Austin. She got an opportunity to come to Dal — she got recruited to come to Dal to do a fellowship and a PhD. So she called me one day, and we were getting married that summer and she said, "You ever been to Halifax?" It's always a girl that brings them to the East Coast! Yeah, she's American, though.

5:59Yeah, she's from the US. She calls and she's like, "You ever been to Halifax, Nova Scotia?" And I'm like, no, I've never been there — but I know a bunch of people from the East Coast. In Alberta, tons of people out working in the oil industry and then playing hockey all around North America, lots of teammates from out this way. And I said I'd never been there, but we were getting married and no place really — you know, we weren't desperate to go

6:27and settle down — so we said, let's head to the East Coast of Canada and try it out for a couple years. Interviewed with Cory and Ben Stockdyk and — second choice, yeah. Ben — they had to vote on who they were going to hire and I had a veto. Yeah. Cory says — so the story goes — Cory voted for me and Ben voted for somebody else. So we've had that over each other ever since. But we brought home the Burnside hockey championship, so it was

6:55getting a couple contingencies built into the contract — yeah, smart enough to bring an NHLPA bag into my interview, so we spent more time talking hockey than talking about work. Anyway, similar story to Cory from that point. It was literally my first job out of university. I didn't grow up in the industry, so I started as a project engineer — you know, a little bit in the office. But my first big job was at the QE2 hospital doing the hospital expansion and the parking garage. Spent

7:29two years on site there with the exact same philosophy that Cory talked about — just soaking up knowledge, talking to the field guys, seeing how things go together, understanding all the different perspectives on how a project gets built: from the field guys, the architects, the engineer, the general contractor, the client, all the different stakeholders. And it was the most invaluable experience that I was able to carry through as I transitioned into the office as a project manager and

8:02vice president and into ownership. So you realize you're starting to get old when the QE2 parking garage is going to get ripped down and redeveloped, right? And I remember people telling me that when I was a young kid just starting out — that you'll realize you've been in the industry a long time when buildings you built start getting taken down. So here I am — not getting any younger, that's for sure. It seems like, you know, a lot of stories. And when

8:30you're thrown into it like that on your first project, it's kind of like — there's a lot you don't know, but it's almost like there's no other way to really understand it than to just get thrown in. And there's — we define it as sink or swim. Really, the best experience and the best way to learn is by doing. But being smart enough to know what you don't know, right? And surround yourself with smart people. You know,

8:57empower them to do what they're good at. And when you do all of that, you can really get a well-rounded point of view and be successful in the industry. You mentioned being like a sponge — Cory, that's really what you have to be. Absolutely. And like you say, you don't know what you don't know. When I came on as president of the company, I was a good builder — I felt like I was a pretty good project manager — but I'd never run a company. So I

9:28knew what I didn't know. I didn't know enough about the finance side of it, the business side of it. And I really had to put away the project management hat for a while and really jump into that side of things. And it really helped us grow our company. We were always great builders, understood how to do great projects and everything else around that, but to grow the company you really need to understand the business. And that's

9:53a skill in itself — to switch gears like that, because you're so immersed in that mental state. It is, and it's a bit humbling. Because I enjoyed being a project manager, I enjoyed building stuff — very tangible. You could look at something and say, yeah, I built that. And then to come back and say, okay, I need to understand the difference between an income statement and a balance sheet — literally — and taking it from scratch. And learning the importance of your finance partners, your bonding partners, and all that kind

10:19of stuff. And it was fun. I enjoy learning. But it took a little time, a lot of effort — and fun along the way. But giving up what was once fun, which was building those buildings. Yeah. 100%. It's like — Devin, you were talking about your experience playing hockey, and I wonder if you could just touch on what you learn playing a team sport. I know both you guys are big on

10:45philanthropy and community stuff, and definitely big on sports. You talked about talking hockey in your interview — it's something you share in common. What kind of skills do you develop playing hockey at that level of a team sport that you're using in the work environment? Oh, 100%. It's still to this day one of the things that I look at in a resume and in a conversation with prospective hires. It doesn't have to be hockey, but something

11:12outside of your trade that you've done at a high level. Anybody that can put in the effort and the hard work to play hockey at the highest level, or even a high level — anybody that puts a ton of time toward something outside of their industry — it's huge. The hard work and determination, the teamwork, the communication, just the commitment — it's obviously very transferable. Yeah, you can learn the trade. Right?

11:53We could take anybody that has a willingness to learn, bring them into the organization, and teach them what they need to do to be a project coordinator or project manager. The physical experience of construction can be taught. It's all of those other intangible characteristics that will define who the highest performers are going to be. Yeah. I've heard the saying before that the best teams are the teams that talk the most — there's always talking on the bench. My dad talks about that a lot. Oh

12:24absolutely. You know, I talk to people in the industry — younger guys, estimators or PMs and stuff — and they're really good, they have the skills, they know the technology. But I try and tell them: hey, it's your communication skills that are going to take you anywhere in your career. Doesn't matter how good you can do this or that task. Oh, absolutely. And understanding how to communicate with different people — everyone communicates

12:46differently. Some of our clients are more experienced and they want a more formal type of communication; others not so much, and text messages or phone calls work. But you know, Devin and I talk about this all the time — you've got to pick up the phone and talk to somebody. Yeah, 100%. It's just not happening nearly enough in the industry. "I sent them a text" or "I sent them an email" — we've got to get back a little bit to the basics and understand the importance of a phone call. Oh man, I just

13:10went through that this morning — three emails and nobody understood. All it took was one phone call: call the project manager, ask him about the change order, ask him what item two was, and talk to him for five minutes. Absolutely. But nobody wants to pick up the phone anymore. It's unbelievable. It's so frustrating. And being comfortable in confrontation, right? If we're debating over a change order, sit down and work it out. It's not personal at all.

13:39Try to see all sides of what's happening and come up with something that's fair and reasonable, based on the circumstance. And you can't do that via email — you just can't. You can't read tone either, and that's the biggest thing. In any relationship, conflict — if it's not personal, you're just looking for the truth, just looking to solve the problem — it's hard, I think, for people to get into that

14:05mindset. We're doing this director series now where we're doing something like continuing ed with us, dealing with all this stuff. And just to kick it off, we said: in order to get better, we need to have conflict. Because if we keep on just agreeing with one another, we're going to keep making the same mistakes over again. We're not going to get better. We've got to create a little conflict so that we can come to better solutions and do things better. That's the way

14:26it is. You mentioned something interesting just a minute ago — and I don't want to keep asking interesting questions, I know we have so many things to talk about — but you mentioned how it was going from PM to the business mindset, and you didn't have that tangible thing like "I built that" after two or three months or a year. And I think it's such an interesting industry, with the enmeshment of blue collar and

14:50white collar. And I think a lot of people who maybe haven't stepped over into that side don't understand how much you miss that when it's all numbers and things — you can't really show someone what you did this year. It's just all in your mind and in conversations. And I often think of that as I do what I do. I'm fairly busy, trying to grow the company. A lot of people don't understand really

15:14what you're doing all day. And it is tough. I say this all the time to staff too — you have to find what success looks like, and it can't be something that's way out there. As a project manager, success was pretty easy: I built a nice building, I've got a happy client, I made a little bit of money. Pretty easy, right? But when you're in business or you're doing

15:35other things, you've got to understand what success looks like in the next 12 months versus 18 months, or even three or four weeks out. Because if you can't keep finding that, it's hard to keep yourself motivated and want to come in and keep on improving. And I brought it up because I think, you know, everybody kind of has that — everybody wants to be the CEO, you'd say — but then everybody needs affirmation too, even

15:57CEOs. And sometimes people just don't quite get what it is that they do. Your layered thought — your mind is so full. You probably can't even sleep some nights. They don't get that. Yeah, absolutely. And you know, it helps because I grew up blue collar. I was a laborer, I was in the ditch shoveling — I did all that kind of stuff. So I've been through it all, and I think

16:19it gives me a really good understanding and ability to see it through the lens of all the different individuals, and to appreciate that they can't really appreciate what I'm doing every single day because they haven't been there — and it's impossible to figure it out. And Devin here — he's great. He gives me information and affirmation daily. Daily affirmations — he comes in, gives me a little hug to start every day. "You are really doing such a great job — I'm just happy to be here with you." Yeah.

16:52Well, you guys have been working together for 20 years and you still get along this well — then you're doing well. We live down the street from each other! You're driving over in a driver and a three-wood, nine years in. So let's talk about Lindsay's. Some current — there are so many topics we're going to touch on, but currently, some of the notable projects you have on the go right now. You're geographically immersed in every province it seems — you're really a strong foundation as an Atlantic

17:23company. It's important because we are an Atlantic Canadian construction company, right? We don't want to just focus on Nova Scotia — that's where we started and we have a lot of great projects here, but we work right across Atlantic Canada. So if you take a look at it — in Newfoundland recently, we finished off a Coast Guard design-build building, which was fantastic.

17:50Great client. We worked with some good local architects as well as some national ones to secure that project. Just did a school in Paradise — Paradise, Newfoundland — another design-build, which we really like. Design-build and construction management, where you can build real partnerships with the clients. You guys travel — do you take your labor force over there when you get those projects out of province? It's important to hire in the province. They operate as their own units with their own

18:19regional directors — folks that have been in the industry a long, long time. We'll supplement with some of our specialties. Tilt-up would be an example. When we go into one of those provinces, at the beginning we would send over the folks that knew what they were doing. Now we've got guys over there, and we have guys that relocated — they love Newfoundland, or they love New Brunswick, or what have you. The folks that want to move can move. So a couple of them

18:41— what are we doing, what are we doing here? Like, Cape Breton's the big project — we'll talk about that later on for sure. But locally, yeah — well, I think what a lot of people don't know or appreciate about us is we have probably close to 200 to 250 projects that we do a year. Wow. Right? So we do everything from our small jobs and service work division, where we'll come in and do a small renovation or change the

19:09doorknob — right up to the Cape Breton Regional Hospital. So in and around Nova Scotia, our biggest growing business unit is the multi-unit residential.

19:34Yeah, so we've got close to a dozen of those that are on the go. We do lots of work. We finished up the IWK; we're at the QE2. Non-stop working there. Our bread and butter — if you go through Burnside, we'd have half a dozen tilt-up buildings. We do a lot of work with Eastport, Thompson's Moving. We've got a bunch of nice light industrial work in that market. And then in New Brunswick, we're

20:04finishing up a nice multi-unit residential building called the Wentworth, in Saint John. Got a little bit of work in PEI for Crombie. The Field House in Saint John was nice — we finished that up. That massive field house — the Saint John Field House — big indoor track and field facility. Nicest one in Atlantic Canada. It's a phenomenal space. So we've got a huge cross-section of work all over the place. When do we finish Brigadoon? We're

20:39finishing up soon — well, over the next couple of months here. What is Brigadoon Village? It's a camp down in the Valley. It's a kids' camp and they work with a lot of children with cancer and other conditions. They bring in children for week-long camps so they can be with other folks like themselves. Nothing feels like Camp Brigadoon. It's an absolutely unbelievable honor to be able to do that. You know, when we go down there, our

21:11staff — it's one of the things our staff love, that we do these types of projects that mean something. Our superintendent there, Doug — I just got some feedback from them at Brigadoon about him and how much they just love the guy. He goes above and beyond because, you know, you're doing something that's going to make an impact on these kids' lives. So it's fantastic. And folks out there that do not know what Brigadoon is, they should Google it. It's a great

21:38great story. So you talk to your site supers a lot as president and CEO — is that at least every quarter? I try to. Devin's the CEO, so he gets to talk to them a little bit more than I do. But that is one of the things that you miss — trying to get out to the sites. We try to — like, we're a social company. The last couple of years have been tough, but

22:00we try to get as many people out and do as much as possible — company barbecues, family barbecues — doing things. A lot of the things we do for the Mooseheads game de-icers is coming up. We'll take over a hundred people to that. Just this weekend — yeah, Friday night. Yeah, Friday the 13th.

22:23Yeah. But I definitely try to get out and see the superintendents and get to the sites as much as I can. So are there some projects in the past that really stood out that you're extremely proud of? I was thinking of the IDEA Building — it seemed like a really showpiece project on the Dalhousie campus. But are there certain ones that really stand out to you guys? Yeah, for me it would be the IDEA Building —

22:48absolutely. You know, I went to Dal, so yeah, it's great to see that — and what they did, and the Lindsay family attachment to it as well. The Discovery Centre — a few years back — I was pretty proud of that one. It was a tough, challenging project, but just what the Discovery Centre does for Halifax and the importance of having places like that in Halifax to make it a better city and better region. So those two Halifax projects. So much

23:20— Halifax Hospice. Not as big and sexy, but you know how important it is to have that facility — first one in HRM. Being able to do those — they're unique projects. It's not just about how well the project went; it's about what the building means to the community. And we target that. Our staff love it. They love being part of it. It's one of the reasons staff love coming to us — because they know we do those types of projects.

23:47We give back, and the projects give back to them and they have opportunity to be part of it in any way. Yeah. I think one of the ones that stands out for me is the NICU/PICU at the IWK. Having five kids, and one of them was in there for a short while just as a precaution — when you go and tour that place upon completion, you realize how special it is and

24:18how lucky we are to have a facility like that in Nova Scotia. It's world-class. It really is. And that NICU/PICU — was that all renovation, or was there an addition to that? It was all renovation, yeah. That's right behind the Early Labor Assessment unit. And being a guy that was on the fundraising board at the time — all fundraising dollars — were you the chair? Yeah, no — I moved off the IWK board. Make-A-Wish is the one that I'm coming on as

24:47incoming chair. But yeah, the foundation board — that was all private sector money. Like, over 50 million. Fantastic what they did. Yeah, it's great. And Devin — a big part of your job is recruitment, talent, and stuff. And obviously we can talk about Cape Breton now if you want. Yeah. I know there are challenges getting so many scopes and trades — labor out there, and materials — it's endless. The challenges

25:15are endless right now. You're right. The human capital is the biggest thing right now. Skilled labor — at all levels, through all of our trade contractors. We self-perform a lot of work, so finding skilled carpenters, laborers, right through the office — project managers — would be one of the hottest commodities in Atlantic Canada right now. And when we have an aggressive growth plan like we've gone

25:52through and continue to go through, you're constantly looking for good people. So we spend an exorbitant amount of time finding good talent, finding ways to attract and keep the talent that we have — an ongoing cycle. It really is. And then layer in COVID, layer in all of the challenges in the market right now. You know, geographically it's very different. You talk about Cape Breton — billions and billions of dollars in investment in Cape Breton with a very limited labor pool. Challenge

26:32to find anybody. These are the challenges we deal with every single day. And a bunch of the other challenges with supply chain — again, through COVID you really start to realize how globally interconnected we are. Every industry is just like that now, at this day and age. It's really unbelievable. Just when you think you have something figured out, another curveball comes at you as far as supply chain challenges. And so your teams have to be smart,

27:08they have to be sharp, they have to be planning — contingency planning, monitoring and adjusting. It's tough to do. Prices are going through the roof, and if you can even get something. So it's much uncertainty. You're managing risk, and there's just a level of uncertainty that's off the charts. Yeah, off the charts. And it's tough conversations that you need to have, both internally and with clients and other stakeholders. And

27:40it is — we talked earlier about communication, and it's impossible to oversimplify — but man, there's never been a time where communication has been as important and critical as it is right now. Because the best-laid plans right now are changing every day. You think you've done everything right and all of a sudden you get a phone call or an email that structural steel that was set to deliver next week is now eight weeks away. One foot in order, one foot in chaos.

28:14Yeah. Exactly. So we hire great people, and they're paid to deal with that stuff. And we have great systems and policies and procedures to mitigate that risk the best that we can. We've got great ability at the size and scale of who we are to do everything possible to mitigate a lot of these things. But every day is

28:50— you never know what you're walking into. Just never know. So you talked a lot about growth. Obviously Lindsay's is one of those companies that's grown extremely — a lot — over the past say ten years. And managing that between the CEO and the COO — just talk a little bit about building those systems and preparing for going from this milestone to that one, and you know the new risk that's involved. You hear a lot of

29:23people talk about traction when they're at a certain level — outside consultants that you're using — you have to let the business operate itself while you're able to be outside and make those decisions. Maybe just chat a little bit about how that's been for both of you. Yeah, you're right. We've grown a lot over the last ten years — five, six, maybe even seven times our volumes over that length of time. And there — that's what I want. I stopped being a

29:55project manager. You know, but it kind of — you do jumps. You take a look at it and say, okay, we're going from 50 to 100, and what do we need to do over that time? What do we need to improve upon? What can we do? And what do you need to add internally versus where do you need some external support to help you out? Because you can't necessarily afford to add everything internally early. So you can sort things out or just shop it out

30:22to different individuals. And then as we got there in these little jumps, we kind of felt — and it helps that Devin is my best buddy, right? We've been very tight since the day we met, really. So we would talk and say, okay, how does it feel? Are we feeling a little bit out of control? Or are we feeling like we're getting a little too comfortable in our own skin again? And

30:46that's when I'd always say: this is a pause. The next year, year and a half, we're going to just get used to where we are — make sure we are who we say we are, make sure we don't have blind spots, we're backfilling what we need. You know, one of our first big jumps was adding a CFO. We were always led through good, competent accounting through controllers and such, but we went to a CFO. Added an HR department. Now we're

31:11adding — you know, the legal department? We just hired a director of legal and risk — Caitlyn — and she's fantastic. And it's not because we're litigating more; it's just that we're at the scale now where we need that support. We need the everyday support. Our project managers have comfort that they have someone they can go and talk to without knowing they're on the clock with whoever our lawyer happens to be. So it has absolutely been a challenge, but at no

31:41point has it felt like we're not in control of it. We've always been in control of it. Again, Devin and I — we have breakfast every Wednesday morning. We sit down; he talks about the challenges on the operational side of things, and I'm talking about the challenges we might have on the business development or finance side, or dealing with our partners, understanding what our limitations are. And pushing the limits —

32:08we're not afraid to push limits. Look at some of our sectors right now — healthcare is a perfect example. Years ago we sat back and saw what was coming, and we were deficient. We didn't necessarily have the resume to do healthcare. We had a few people that had some experience with it. So you go out, find the projects — the smaller ones, maybe get into the seven, eight, nine, ten million dollar projects, do those well, make sure

32:36you're doing well. Then build that up to the 20 million and keep on growing — you're not just jumping in. We never swing for the fences. I always use my baseball analogy: we bat singles all day long. Every now and then we hit a home run, and every now and then we strike out. Mostly we hit singles all day long, and that's how we generate our runs. And it's how we protect ourselves from striking out too often. Yeah.

33:00Today we would be considered one of the strongest healthcare organizations in Atlantic Canada, based on that solid approach. And what was that — about an eight-year growth? Something like that. And here we are today doing the Cape Breton Regional that nobody would have thought we were able to do just ten years ago. How's that going? It's going great. It's going great. We're in our partnership with Pomerleau, and the combination of what we bring to the table

33:33and what they bring to the table has been a lot of fun. You think you know an organization or a group of people, and until you're in a formal partnership — in the foxhole, exactly — you really find out. So we've had a lot of fun kind of feeling each other out and coming together and staffing it up. It's a big project. It's a complicated project. It's harder than anybody would expect, due to the challenges in Cape Breton with the labor

34:08force. It's hard to find people to go and manage it. It's hard to find sub-trades to respond to bids. It's hard to find creative solutions. From a common sense standpoint, you would look at it and think, okay, you're going to get the odd local trade that's going to do this or that. But say 70 or 60 percent of them are going to be mobilized in. So right away, there's like an

34:33extra 30 percent on each bid. So right away you know it's going to cost you way more than if it was downtown Halifax. Yeah, absolutely. And there are a number of large projects going on in Cape Breton as well, all competing for the same trades and the same resources. So it sort of magnifies the issue there. But it's a world-class project — eight-plus years until completion. Is

35:04this year two now? This would be year two. There's an energy centre, a cancer centre, and then the actual hospital expansion and renovation. The energy centre was the first piece — that building is well underway, going up. Cancer care facility, concrete is being poured, designs are getting finalized. So when it's complete, the people of Cape Breton are going to be pretty proud. They're going to have a world-class facility. I

35:45was talking to somebody over the last couple of weeks about the cladding package and I think that got awarded maybe two or three weeks ago. That was a big number. Yes. All kinds of — I forget now, it was a — what was the cladding type? There's some aluminum and — yeah, and you know, all kinds of ACM. Yeah, exactly. Exactly. The package that would have been TP2, or I think TP3 maybe. Yeah. But

36:17yeah, there are some really big packages there. And that's why I was saying — that's just like one phase of many, right? Absolutely. So no, it's been a lot of fun. And like I say, our partnership with Pomerleau has gone really well. Some great expertise across both organizations that, when you bring together — it's a great team. How does that relationship with

36:49Pomerleau originate? Was it a joint bid? Yeah. Just again, it's about knowing who you are, right? Did we feel like we could build the project on our own? Of course — we had the people in-house and we could do it. Could Pomerleau do it on their own? Of course — they have experience doing it. But if you looked at the criteria the province was asking to see, it would have been more challenging for either one of us to get it on our own. So

37:17we said, okay, we want this project. Did they reach out? I think they reached out to us — or maybe we reached out. I don't remember. Anyway, it was probably three years ago. Yeah, it was a long time ago. And we said, you know what, let's do this. We think we have the team to be able to do this. Just broke it down and looked at the resources — this is where we'll play,

37:38this is where you'll play. They had a great resume; we had great local presence — we've been around for 65 years, so when people think local, we are local. And we were established in Cape Breton with some great people there. So it was easy, and putting together the package went real seamless. We had an MOU going into it and then you finalize the partnership agreement and away you go. Cool. So you guys are

38:07pursuing other jobs in Cape Breton right now as well, other than that one? With everything else that's going on, none of the major projects. We are definitely always doing more and more work there. Everyone seems to know about the work we're doing at Cabot, because everyone wants to go to Cabot. So we're building some houses for the golf folks up there. Yeah, exactly. So we're doing some work there. We have other private sector jobs, and we like to have a very good

38:36balance of public and private. We don't really load up on one side. We were always considered a private sector company, but growing our business, we grew it more into the public sector side of things because there's only so much private sector out there. But that's always been kind of your bread and butter with the design-build. Absolutely. And the in-house Burnside labor — yeah, built half of Burnside. And even in Newfoundland, right — so much of that type

39:03of work that we did in Newfoundland. Yeah, so it's kind of our bread and butter and we love it. It's great work, great clients. Again, there's only so much you can do in that one market. So can you talk a little bit about the relationships you have with First Nations and Indigenous communities? You've got some things on the go, and that's kind of a big part of what you do. Yeah, you know, we're still learning, and it's been great.

39:30Great relationships from the get-go. We see the importance of establishing true partnerships with some of the communities out there. We have Millbrook — we have a partnership agreement with them. We're doing some stuff up in Goose Bay. And then — I know I'm missing some — but when we come in and we work with communities, we talk about how we can do this as a partnership. How

40:04do we ensure that you're getting the benefit of folks in your community who want to work on the project, who want to be mentored, want to go through apprenticeship, want to do all these things? And it really makes the project go that much more smoothly. We're doing a Women's Resiliency Centre. We're doing one for CMM right now. It is relationships we value. And like I said, we're still learning. I would say we were the first Atlantic Canadian contractor to hire an Indigenous relationship

40:38coordinator — to learn more, just to teach us. And bringing her into conversations and getting a better understanding, because we didn't live it. So we don't necessarily have that understanding, but we're certainly open to it and want to learn more. And we put a big value on doing this successfully and making it hugely beneficial to all parties. And so

41:12far it's been extraordinarily rewarding. We're also working with the Rickball Friendship Centre on a housing project with them. I could go on and on — I don't know if I'm missing anything, Devin. You're spot on. It's mutually beneficial relationships. We talk about — and we've talked today about challenges with labor and finding people — the Indigenous communities are one of the untapped labor pools out there right now. So if we can

41:54work with them, bring people into the fold, put them through apprenticeship programs — it's a win-win for both sides. Our goal is always to bring people on, help train and mentor, and then have them either stay with us and continue to work on anything that we do, or even better, go back into their community and start a small business. Start a roofing company, a siding company, go back and hire a couple more people. And

42:26it's pretty powerful, working through that together with our partners. Yeah, it reminds me — and I know, Cory, you were on the board and chair of Habitat for Humanity. So it's kind of honest there too. I've been on a trip — it's probably eight or nine years ago now — to Mexico to help build, you know, lay brick with the community. And just that experience of kind of old

42:52school — building with the community, with your hands, and just being part of something. But it's much more than just the building. Yeah. It feels like that's what it is. You truly build that relationship when you're doing it together. And now you mentioned Habitat — we built a couple for Habitat, with other folks that sponsored it. But our staff — our office staff going in and doing carpenter work, laying brick, painting, or hanging drywall — you know,

43:23it was such a great — it's more than team building. People use that cliché, "team building," but it's really a sense of appreciation and impact when you see what you're doing. And when we work with Indigenous communities, we do basically mini job fairs, trade fairs — go in, see who's interested in what. And when we did Paq'tnkek, we had a young lady that stayed with us. We brought her on, trained

43:50her, and she stayed with Lindsay's. And it's great. Change takes generations, and we're committed to making sure that the next generation certainly does better than ours. Well, especially for an industry that's becoming more and more diversified. And just to see people from different backgrounds come together from such vastly different backgrounds for a common goal — it gets that

44:21absolutely. And we're just at the tip of the iceberg with what we want to do, with a number of underrepresented groups — African Nova Scotians, women in construction. There's so much as an industry that we can and should be doing. And we want to be leaders in doing that. We feel like we do a good job of that but always could and should be doing more. That kind of leads into — Cory, obviously, anyone who knows you would know that you have a huge heart for philanthropy and community engagement. Just reading off a few of the things you've done:

44:54past chair of CANS and long-time board member, IWK Foundation, incoming chair of Make-A-Wish, and also Halifax Partnership — chair of the Halifax Partnership committee responsible for the new five-year growth strategy for HRM. So you obviously still have that

45:22drive to give back, and all the community and philanthropy stuff you're involved in. Just tell us a little bit about what that does for you. Well, it does a lot for me. I'm fortunate to be part of Lindsay's and to be in an organization where folks like Devin and others are like-minded with myself in seeing the importance of giving back. We're fortunate — we do well. The company has done well over the last

45:50little while, and we have a responsibility to give back — to our industry, to the community, to the growth of the social fabric — all of those things. So, getting onto the CANS board early, went up to chair, stuck around for a long time. We made some great changes, looking at things like procurement and social procurement, and how to make sure

46:19it's a little bit more on a competitive and fair side. And then on the philanthropic side of things, always been involved at the IWK — from the Great Big Dig when I used to chair that, and moved on to the board. A lot of fun — easy organization to want to be part of. It's a privilege to be able to do that. And the stories that you hear and learn, and being there when they open the new

46:46NICU/PICU and seeing all that — what you get back is just indescribable. It just feels so good. And coming in as incoming chair of Make-A-Wish — again, young kids, you just want to do stuff for them. I co-founded with a friend, Chris Nolan, and a bunch of other guys, a fundraiser called Trailblazers for Cancer. A nice family event — go out there and

47:16just have a good day. And then, recently, more in the community — I love Halifax, I love Nova Scotia, Atlantic Canada. I want to grow it, and so I feel I have a responsibility to be part of that. Joined the Halifax Partnership board, watched it grow, working with the relatively new CEO Wendy Luther, who has a real passion for it. Having the opportunity to work with our mayor, a little bit more closely with our CAO, and getting an appreciation of what they're doing, our Premier a little

47:45closer. And it makes a difference. Being able to chair the five-year economic strategy — we're talking about things like attainable housing. I learned a lot more than I ever thought I would learn on that side of things. And it's such an important issue to the city. Transportation, the green economy — what's going on there. To be at the front end of that and help lead it — and for me, leading is just listening, bringing in

48:13the other subject experts and listening to what they have to say. It's been great. It's great for me, and it takes a lot of time — there's no question about that. So fortunate that Devin and others see value in it. And there are a lot of connections too with our goals at Lindsay's — with sustainability and zero carbon — absolutely. It's definitely tied in. The company's passions are very similar to mine and Devin's passions, for obvious reasons. And fortunately our community

48:45seems to be entwined into those same passions. So we're able to lead a little bit in that way. Yeah, a healthy, growing, vibrant Atlantic Canada is good for everybody, right? So Cory does a lot in relation to all those things — constantly out in front, constantly pushing our organization and us as people to do good things. And I know that we're fortunate to have leadership like Cory's. The city

49:22and the province should be thankful as well for guys like Cory, and there are many others out there who put the time, effort, and money into this province, because it's a great place. Yeah. I'll mention the Courage to Give Back Award from Family SOS, 2016, and the Inspire Award from Big Brothers Big Sisters, 2017. It seems like there's nothing on the philanthropic front you haven't touched on or been part of. And then you're a game changer just from being

49:51part of it. I don't know where you get the energy. Well, there are so many great causes, honestly. And what's good for the city — or the province — is going to be good for Lindsay's. What's good for Lindsay's is typically good for the city, because we give back. We punch above our weight because we believe in it, and our staff believe in it. It's everything — from like the SPCA. We have

50:17kittens in the office — we had kittens two months ago. And that's what they're always up to, man. Two people adopted them, one of them being Billy. You know, rough Billy — this guy that you would never think would have a kitten. And now he's posting a picture of himself with the kitten that he got from the office. You just never know, right? That's awesome. Well, you're also the founder of Summit Academy, an independent school in Bedford — maybe just tell us a little bit about

50:46what how special that is for you and getting that off the ground. Yeah, a big passion of mine is education. My parents are both public school educators. And like we talked about earlier, I've got my engineering degree, my MBA; my wife has her PhD. I think there is nothing more important in life than education, and fundamentally it is the foundation for all things. So when we moved — moved back here — we went down to

51:31Boston in 2007-2008 for three or four years and came back, and our kids were in public school. There are a lot of gaps in the public school system. There are a lot of fantastic people and great teachers, but the system is broken in so many ways. My wife and I, and my business partner Rob O'Brien, a friend of mine — it started with him and I just talking about the challenges

52:08our kids have in public school. We looked at a number of the private schools — again, there are a lot of great private schools around the city as well. But we have a philosophy where we believe in high-end academics — which is a no-brainer and a given for all private schools — but we're also big believers in physical activity and active learning. Actually going out in the community and experiencing what you're learning, not just learning

52:40about it in a classroom. And just creating that culture. And

52:47there were no other private schools around that really spoke to all those core pillars. And anybody that knows me — and my self-diagnosed OCD — I can't sit and complain about something and not do something about it. And a lot of people say, "How the heck would you think of starting a private school?" Let's just say it started with Rob and I over coffee and beers. Yeah, same time — coffee and beers. And after that — the idea just built

53:29upon itself, talking to a lot of people who had similar thoughts and concepts. So we launched it five years ago in Bedford — called Summit Academy of Active Learning. Started with about 30 kids in the school. It's Junior Primary to Grade 9, and right now we have a vibrant community of probably close to 175-plus, relatively full classrooms, right from Junior Primary to Grade 9. Looking to build and move into a new state-of-the-art

54:06facility here in the coming years. So it's fun. It's really cool. Whenever I have a really tough day at work, or just feel mentally spent, if I can go over to that school for half an hour at the end of the day or the start of the day and see those kids and what they're doing — just drawing on that energy — it fills my bucket right back up. And

54:37gets you ready to go back to the grind of our business. That is amazing. Thanks for sharing that with us, Devin. That's really something, and congrats on getting that off the ground. Thank you. Five years. Maybe that's a good segue into Lindsay's and training and youth. You guys are big on your relationship with NSCC and your youth internships and stuff like that. Maybe just talk a little bit about what that means. And obviously

55:06you're always wanting to get a flow of younger guys — and girls, sorry — coming up. Yeah, we do a few different things. A while ago, when I was at CANS, we did a kind of partnership with the Department of Advanced Education and NSCC, apprenticeship and CANS, and created a program called Building Futures for Youth. It was around students in Grades 10, 11, or 12 and introducing them to construction. By doing that — some of them did it unpaid; we always pay —

55:51you introduce them to the construction world at a younger age, trying to get people to truly understand what it's like to be a carpenter, or a mason, or a sheet metal worker, or what have you. We had some that came in the office, and that has been fantastic. It's been a great model. We're a founding member — I was the founding chair — and we've always brought in three, four, five different students every year. And

56:20it's been an overwhelming success introducing youth to the trades — and sometimes to the technical side as well on the other side. NSCC — what a great organization. And the programs really bring out demanding, motivated individuals. The amount of information they work through. So we offer up some scholarships to folks looking into construction, primarily on the technical side — the Construction Technology class, Architectural Technology class, the Construction Management class,

57:03with a preference towards underrepresented groups — Indigenous communities, African Nova Scotians, women. And we've been fortunate enough that not only have we been able to support people financially, we've been able to bring them through our doors. So we've had folks who've received our bursaries and scholarships, come in and joined Lindsay's, and been part of our team. It's not enough — it's something — but I really do have a

57:34passion for getting the most out of our youth. And regardless of what it is, I still think — and we talk about the school system — there's a lot of marginalization based on marks. I've spoken to teachers in the past about folks where no one glorifies the trades. No one says, "My son or daughter is going to be a carpenter" and speaks of it with pride. And yet they still speak about university — in whatever capacity, arts degree, business degree — as if it's a significant accomplishment. And

58:08it is, but they both are. And we need — it's like a psychological shift. Yeah, really it is. And I always say I don't like the word "just," because they'll say, "So Sally is just doing this, going to NSCC," versus "Billy is going to Dal." It's those little nuances that make a difference. And the key is to just get the most out of every child out there — find out what they like. And NSCC's done a good job.

58:36The Department of Education is doing a better job, and getting folks that are passionate like myself or Devin and talking to them. But we're in a crisis for trades, and it's not going to get any better. It's not getting any better unless — to get busier you need a healthy labor pool. We're doing better with immigration and better steps engaging underrepresented groups, but it's not enough. It's not enough. So we've got to kind of shake our heads a little bit and

59:04do things a little bit differently. To cross tangent on that — I could sit and talk about this for hours, but specific to Lindsay's: we have a large percentage of our staff who have been through NSCC in one way, shape, or form. And they're producing fantastic results. In our office alone there would be dozens — I'm not even going to try to say a number; I was trying to find it before I came

59:37here knowing we might talk about it. But we have dozens and dozens of NSCC grads, both in our office and in the field. The quality of candidates coming out of there is fantastic. And we're constantly hiring young talent. It's the best way for us to hire, train, and maintain. Those who come and work for us generally stay. We have a fantastic culture, a great place to work. We respect our staff and provide

60:17unlimited opportunity. Cory and I just told the story today — we started at Lindsay Construction as our first jobs. And one of our biggest motivations for the growth of our company is to provide opportunities for people. Training, talent retention, talent — we want people to come through and grow into project managers. And then a lot of organizations, that's the most you can do. But we have the ability to offer

60:52a lot of different opportunities outside of that. If you have a passion for concrete, you can run the self-perform division. If you love wood framing, IMP, or metal buildings, you have an opportunity to specialize there. You want to estimate? You want to be in design, or be a structural specialist? We're constantly moving the pieces within our organization to align people's passions with what they want to do. And that creates new pieces — we're constantly creating new pieces

61:28and giving people — if somebody has a passion and wants to do something — how many times have we sat down with them, talked them through a business plan, and had them help create that business plan of what they want to do, built around that person? And then we're willing to invest in them, put the time, energy, and money into supporting them. As long as it aligns with our goals and

61:58what we want to do, or seems like a logical growth avenue for us. And people see that and want to be part of it. Yeah, people want that opportunity. It's not like they have to grow right away — they need consistency and to learn — but just to know that there are growth opportunities two years down the road, five years down the road. We talked about our growth earlier on,

62:22and if we didn't grow the way we did, we would have lost a lot of really good people because it would have peaked. And so our growth is a product of our young, smart, energetic staff pushing us, and us saying, well, we're not leaving and we're not losing them. So what do we need to do? Geographic expansion — do more, go into different areas. L360 is an example that we've been doing for the last two or three years. So two years, yeah. Two

62:49and a half, I guess — and forward integrated into the maintenance side. It's hard to remember; time flies. It's like pre-COVID and post-COVID. Are you doing a lot of work on just mainly the buildings Lindsay's involved with in construction, or is it any buildings? We're looking — we've done a lot. A lot of it is our client base, folks that we already have relationships with, but not necessarily Lindsay-built buildings. And our Lindsay-built buildings — well, L360 is just basically

63:19— we say we're just wrapping our arms around you. You buy a car and it comes with a warranty for a reason; well, most construction warranties are a year. This is a program that allows you to stay connected and maintain the buildings. The clients have loved it so far — they love the attention. And the toughest thing to do when you're building a building is keeping your project managers engaged for the last one percent, because they're already looking at the next shiny new

63:48job. Close enough, almost there, just don't care anymore. Exactly, exactly. So that's a good analogy. That's why these guys like L360 — it kind of supplements that, and it's really helped with clients enjoying the Lindsay experience. And what is it all about? We're dipping our toe into energy retrofits. We talked a little bit about the green economy and what that means. A lot of these buildings, with some of the goals that Halifax and

64:20Nova Scotia want to reach over the next little while — there's a lot of work to be done. And we have the knowledge and opportunity to help be part of that solution. So yeah, it's an example where we'll continue to grow. Folks come to us, like the idea, and we'll work with them on that. And again, our growth has been very significant and hasn't felt out of control because of the talent of our staff — because they're

64:51the ones driving us. And I can see that that's one of the most rewarding parts for you guys — to be able to be creative with the vision, get to know the staff over the years, and think, oh, if we do this, this is going to be great for them. It's almost like you're flipping it — you're working for them. Well, you're bang on. Because how many times do you make a mistake thinking this person wants to do that because

65:11it's what you did, right? Oh, well, clearly this person wants to do this — that's the typical growth path. So you take the time to actually sit down with our folks and say: what do you want? What do you like? What fires you up? Because if you put them in whatever fires them up, you're going to get a lot out of them, they're going to get rewarded, and we're going to get rewarded as a byproduct. It's pretty simple. And it's — we talk about it

65:38all the time. One of the biggest metrics that we are most proud of is the number of people we employ, right? And you wake up every morning and you want to go to work, continue to build out what we've been doing, so that we can provide for these 600-plus employees that we have. It definitely feels like a pressure associated with that, but it's a

66:13fantastic driving force to just keep doing what we've been doing. It's a lot of fun. We were just talking earlier, before we got on that topic — about youth and how the trades aren't glorified much in the culture, in the education system. And I think that might be a good lead-in to mental health — mental well-being. And obviously that's

66:45something you guys are really passionate about. When you own an organization with 600 people, it's something you have to deal with — especially after a pandemic. A lot of youth who are coming up, they have no other option but to be influenced by the culture within their micro-environment. A lot of them might be diagnosed with something, or you might assume there are issues, but it might just be that they

67:15should be swinging a hammer instead of having expectations that aren't really sorted out in the right way. Because the pressure of all this — and they're young, they're learning, trying to figure out who they are and what they like to do. Absolutely. That's a great comment. And I'll probably steal that from you — because it's true. Our youth, especially in today's world,

67:44there's so much opportunity to do different things. At 16, 17, 18 years old — it's young to figure that out. But to create opportunity and not pigeonhole folks, and not make them feel like a disappointment if they do this or that or the other thing. A couple of kids I coach hockey with — they're like, "I want to go to NSCC because I want to swing a hammer. It's what I want to do."

68:15And they get it. They say, "I just like it." You know, if you like it, you can make a great career out of it. And always leave the options open — you might want to take a business course with that, because you might run your own business someday. Don't limit yourself, just push your boundaries all the time. I guess we should put a shout out actually to Dal too — and in all engineering

68:38schools. We didn't talk about it, but they're fantastic. Yeah, we do — we have more graduates from SMU as well. Yeah, yeah. A great thing about Halifax is all the great schools. Exactly. But we focus on NSCC because it is more the lifeblood of our company. On the well-being and mental health side of things — the last two years have been tough. And we notice it. When we have over 120 people in our office in Dartmouth, plus staff in the other

69:07five locations we have — you see it. You see the wear and tear people have had, and they're scared to talk. It shows in your body. And you have to address it. We talk about things like: if you're having a 15-minute meeting, go for a walk. Nice day out? You and your colleague go for a walk and talk about whatever. A little walk and talk. Little things. We did a Bell Let's Talk event — we did a Zoom call with 120 people

69:38online — all of our office staff came online — and I led it, and just talked a little bit about mental health. Said something like: listen, I struggle at times. Everyone does. Just normalize it. And then next thing you know, three or four different people are telling stories, sharing stories. And that day, everyone went out for a walk — it was a beautiful day — everyone went for like a half-hour walk. And the feedback from our staff was

70:06that it was more impactful than bonus day. It really was. The appreciation, and understanding how much people need it — and people need it today more than ever. Right through the spectrum, from the most senior people right down to our youth. So we talk about it a lot, and we do what we say. We are going to be there to support and lead our organization through this and make sure — because the next decade, the ramifications of this

70:38pandemic — we're in it and we've got to keep our eyes open. Yeah, we're just starting to see the tip of it now. Someone — our industry is supposedly known for being rough and tough, and "we don't talk about our feelings" — this, that, and the other thing. And that's the way of the dinosaur now. You just can't run an organization like that. You have to be in tune with the way people are feeling and

71:11create the right environment for them. And it's a win-win, right? People feel good, they enjoy coming to work, they're going to do a good job for you, and it's going to show in the results of how a company performs. It's not some super magic formula that's complex to figure out. But it is a mindset shift, and it certainly has been for us. We've seen it all and been through a lot over the last 20

71:41years. And it is very different managing staff and people today than it was 20 years ago. Yeah. And like you said, in an industry that's fast-paced and these projects you're working on — the two pillars are always going to be time and money, right? Budget and schedule. Totally. So the pressure's always going to be there. But to see companies pay attention to that and give that comfort level of being able to talk if

72:14you need to talk — yeah, we're running a business, we need to do a hundred different things, but we care about your well-being. Because if you're not well, nobody wins. Absolutely. I mean, Cory is the one who speaks about it the most — showing vulnerability, right? Like, we all have hard times, we all go through tough times, we're all not 100% mentally strong every day. And that's okay. That's okay. And there's always somebody

72:47to talk to. There's a support network. If you're not comfortable talking to someone at work, we have support lines to call and people to talk to. We're all in this together. And long gone are the days of just saying, "Suck it up, rub some dirt on it, and move on." Just work longer, do more with less — you just can't do that anymore. It's not healthy.

73:17People are not productive in that environment. You talk about vulnerability — I challenge our senior managers every day to show a little, because people need to see the human side of their leaders. And when leaders show that human side, everyone knows — I wear my heart on my sleeve and everyone kind of knows that about me. So it's easy for me to say that. But it is important, because then others will open up and you'll really understand what the folks reporting into

73:43you want. Because they're not going to open up if they don't see that vulnerable side in you — they're just not. And the next thing you know, you lose them because you didn't understand them. And we don't want that. They work better, and it's a big part of our success — we just care. It's pretty easy. But we do care. Yeah. No, it's really refreshing to hear those comments from people like yourself. Is

74:09there anything we haven't touched on? I know we've talked about a lot of things, and I'm sure there are countless other things we could chat about. But as far as you both go, as business owners and leaders in a large construction firm in Atlantic Canada — I hear a lot of talk about how busy things are, how busy they're going to be. How excited are you guys for the coming years? Oh, there's so much. That's what I should

74:38say — it is exciting times. But we spent a lot of today talking about challenges, and there are a lot of challenges. And that's coupled with — we mentioned the private sector — so you have interest rates going up. What is that going to do? That's going to affect how some folks look at their investments. People might sit on land versus doing something right now. There's some normalization that needs to happen. So as busy as we are, we have to understand that there's going to

75:09be some ripple effects. And it happens quick. You go back to 2008 and what happened back then. And you look at housing in the States right now — it's slowing down by 25 percent. There's a lot of things out there that you could easily get caught up in your own hype. But you always have to be looking ahead and saying, okay, what if? How do we make sure that we are there all the way through this? And you know, rising — keeping staff and, you know,

75:37rising employee salaries — happy to pay it. I want folks to make more money. But it has to come out the other end. So with rising costs, hyperinflation, all these things — it's just hard to believe that it's the most busy construction time ever. Because if I said we're into hyperinflation and rising interest rates and a labor shortage, who would say it's a great time to build? Not a lot of people. But it is — is it

76:08busy? Yes, there's still a lot of private stuff happening. I'm not saying — look, I'm not — it's hard to believe. And so if it's hard to believe, you've got to dig into that a little bit and make sure you're not ignoring anything out there. You're really paying close attention. And that's what we do a really good job at — paying attention. Talking to our clients, understanding what the runways look like, and making sure that we have the right

76:35number of people doing the right type of work. And it is exciting. What keeps me up at night — people ask me that often — it's the 600-plus checks that go out every week in the name of one of our staff. That's a big responsibility. And we're going to make sure that that'll be 700 or 800 as we continue to grow and provide a great work environment for everybody that's part of our team. So it sounds like a tough wave to ride, right in front of

77:04us. Any final thoughts? Yourself, Devin? It's been great. Yeah, it's been a great conversation. We're really blessed — we've got a lot of good things happening in our organization, and lots happening here in Halifax, Nova Scotia, and Atlantic Canada. Really appreciate you taking the time with us today, and really happy to be able to do this with you finally. Yeah, 100%. This has been a real treat. And it's

77:34been a pleasure talking to both you guys. To have a company like Lindsay Construction come on and be a part of what our team has going here is a real honor. So this has been great. Can't thank you enough for taking the time out of your schedules to come here and be with us. I hope lots of people enjoy tuning in. Yeah, well, thank you — it was a lot of fun. Yeah. Appreciate it. Thank you. Thank you.

77:57Thanks for tuning in to this episode of the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to follow us on any podcast platform you use. You can also find us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to send us a comment or a review — we'd love to engage with you.