From Sweeping Floors to a $100M Contractor — Doug Doucet of RCS Construction on EOS, Paying Subs in 48 Hours & the Project That Almost Broke Him

0:03Welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. I'm your host Daniel Arsenault. On this episode we have Doug Doucet, president of RCS Construction and Mill-Right Woodworking. We'll talk about Doug's entrepreneurial journey, Traction and EOS, hear some great stories, and hear a lot of history about both companies. Hope you enjoy. Well, welcome back to the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Our guest today needs no introduction, but I will anyway — Doug Doucet. Thanks for being here, Doug. Doug's the owner and founder of RCS Construction and Mill-Right. Doug's clients and companies that he's

0:42worked with in Atlantic Canada are some of the top who's who. Some of them include North American Development Group, Crombie, Sobeys, Canadian Tire, Choice Properties, Loblaws, Walmart, and the list goes on. Yeah, thanks for being here, Doug. Yeah, it's a pleasure, looking forward to it. First podcast! First podcast, great — we're happy to be here. First of many, that's right. Yeah, maybe just give us a little background on, you know, starting RCS, where you're at, and how far it's come.

1:17There is a 45-minute version, but I'll try to do it in five. I started in 1996, so we're in our 25th year — we'll actually celebrate 25 years on September 30th this year. You know, we've come a long way. We were a little unsophisticated company back then. I started the company with a fellow named Bruce Mullins, who went on to start his own company after we parted ways, and Stan Carew, who was a very good friend. And we

1:46traveled down from Ontario to kind of start renovating grocery stores — that was the intent — and it grew to being what it is today. Today we have probably upwards of almost 140 employees, and we just cracked $100 million in sales last year for the first time. So there's a long story in between there. Yeah, is there — is there any points within that growth of the last — was it '93, '96? Started where it was like, you know, kind of key points in those

2:13years where you took certain steps to kind of get things doubled or tripled for sales, or whenever things kind of had those milestones that you can think of? Yeah, no, there's a couple that definitely — especially the times we're in today. These times will be one for sure. But you know, the first 13 years in business — I was — people always said, you know, was there a big transition from going from working for someone else to working for yourself, and I'm like, I

2:38don't think so. I don't remember it being a transition — like, it was literally working for somebody yesterday and today working for myself. Because when we worked for somebody else, the three of us — I will say we all were pretty hard workers, and we were probably pretty driven in our organizations. So I went to work yesterday to work the best I could, and I went today for myself to do the best I could. So it's always been a "do the best you can do" kind of mentality.

3:01And I always felt that at the end of the day, or the end of the week, or the end of the year, if you gave it your best shot, good would happen. But I would say for the first 13 years, I don't know that we had a negative quarter in growth or sales or profit. So come 2008, I think — we were having the best year, we were going to hit $48 million in sales, and it was phenomenal. And the bottom

3:24fell out of it down in the U.S. when we had all the bank issues. But we were still going strong — it was going to go down there, and we were just still — and I just, I don't know, whatever made us think — because we'd never hit any depressed times as a company — this was '08 going into '09, and you know, '08 had already fallen in the U.S. and '09 was when it hit us. And we were naive to think that we were just

3:48going to keep trucking. And just the bottom came out of it. I mean, it literally stopped. We were at a time when — you know, it was unprecedented with the bank issues down in the U.S. And let's face it, we're Canada — they're the big sister, the big brother, and whatever happens down there is going to affect us. And that we didn't see coming. The next four or five years were very — I want to say up and down — like it was tough.

4:12It was tough. We would make a million bucks, we would lose a million bucks. I mean, we were going through some growth issues. All of a sudden you were really challenged — like, when you run a business and it's profitable quarter over quarter, year over year, it's really easy to make decisions. You know, if the guys want four-wheel drives you just buy them because you've got money. Decisions get tougher when you're not making money. So you know, that's when I had my

4:35breakups with my partners, because we couldn't agree — you know, I want to do this, they want to do that. And then it begins fighting. And when there's a nice check or a bonus check at the end of the month, you can put it all aside and look over top of that and move on. But when you really think you're making the best decisions for the company, then you really — you know, it's when it gets tough. So that was in 2009. So that

4:57was a big one. The next four or five years were tough. And then we had a life-changing moment — I will say — when we were introduced to EOS, which is an Entrepreneurial Operating System, which is called Traction. Have you read the book? You read the book? It's a great book. It's a fantastic book. Yeah. It was — I'm going to say it was where we had hit the growth ceiling. We were at $50 million in sales, you know — we went four or five years of tumultuous times,

5:27up and down. And then all of a sudden, you know, Stephanie said, "Doug, you've got to read this book, Traction." And I'm like — Stephanie, we were building one of our restaurants at the time — I said, "I can't; every time I get to the page I'm trying to solve all the world's problems, I just can't do it." And she's like, "Doug, you've got to read it." So she called me in November and she said, "Did you read the book yet?" I said, "No, but I'm going on Christmas holidays and

5:47I'm going to be down in Florida, and I promise you I'll read the book." So I got in the hot tub and I started reading the book, and I'm like, "Wow, the book's pretty good." And I think what was exciting about the book was everything it was telling you to do — we had done a lot of things, we had a lot of practices in place, we had a lot of process in place for a small company. But the book closed that gap. So I would say I was doing 75% of what

6:09the book said you should do. But when I read the rest of the book and I got into it — I finished it in two days — and I called her right after and said, "Stephanie, oh my god, this is going to change the way we do business." Like, I just — it was a profound moment. "I've got to get all the leadership to read this book, everybody's got to get on board." And we did, and we immediately made a lot of significant changes in the office. We had

6:31to let go of some key staff — we had to let go of people that didn't fit, you know, weren't in the right seats. The book's all about hiring people in the right seats — having the capacity, the ability, and the want or the desire. So when you answer those questions and people don't fit, you make changes. And since we reorganized our leadership team, we've got everybody in the right seats. The company has taken off like wildfire. We hit over $100 million in sales last year,

6:57projecting for $130 million this year, and we want to be a $250 million dollar company in seven years from now. So that book got you from $60–70 mil to — it got us from about $60, yeah, $60 to $100 million in two years. And for our listeners, Traction and EOS — it's very process-based, right? It's all about — is it delegating, and like how to run a machine? Everything from the orientation point out — is that how you'd describe it? It's accountability —

7:26it's a tool for accountability. Today, people need help. You know, there's the old rule — they say that 20/60/20 — it's a Harvard business study that says 20% of people in most companies are underachievers, 60% are average or above average and get most of the work done, and 20% are the overachievers. And the actual study goes on to say — and this was in the book — that you can't move somebody two notches. So why try to take an underachiever and

7:55help them be average? Why try? You want to work with your average employees and spend all your time trying to make them overachievers, giving them the tools to do that. But the majority of employees need process — they need process. And that's the big step to go from, I would say, a small company to a mid-sized company: having process so that you get delivery. We call it RCS 101 — it doesn't matter if you're dealing with Dan or Doug or Andrew,

8:20it's always the same process, it's always driven the same way — the projects are all run the same way, same direction. And that's been critical for us. Right, so it's basically eliminating all mental energy spent that's not going to be fruitful. Yeah, it's getting everybody aligned with your vision. I mean, we have what we call a VTO. The VTO sets your goals — your quarterly goals, your yearly goals, your goals for five and ten years — and it's understanding and sharing that. You know, back in the day with the big

8:48organizations they do all this strategy planning, bring people in, do color pictures, get everybody rah-rah. Well, this is more simplistic — it's just, let's all get in a room, let's do what we say we're going to do, let's put our heads together. And that gives us a list of achievements — let's focus around doing this all together as a team. So it's really engaging. It's not far-fetched that an outsider can

9:13come in and just get everybody feeling rosy — that's not the way it is. It's getting people engaged within and making them a part of it. That's a big deal. I want to go back to what you were saying — about one day you're working, and you know the work ethic is there and obviously the entrepreneurial spirit, and then the next day you started your own thing and it didn't feel any different. How old were you when you started RCS? I was 28 years old. I was actually in

9:34university — to say a little bit more of the story. I was in university to be an accountant, and I only went to university to be an accountant because my mom said you should be an accountant. So I'm like, okay. She was an accountant, and she's a mentor of mine in her own right — she was a hard-working business lady as well. But you know, I was one of three boys; the four girls went to university, two of the boys didn't — they chose to follow in their dad's footsteps and work with the

9:56family business. And I said, I'll go. Well, little did I know I wasn't cut out for university, and little did I know I hate numbers to this day — I'll never be an accountant. I don't even want to look at my balance sheet, because I think you know when you're having a good year. Yeah, you know when you're having a good year, you know when you're having a bad one. But sorry, go back — I will finish that story. Yeah, of course.

10:17I actually dropped out of university on September 16th, and my girlfriend at the time was pregnant. So I had to — you know, it was the right thing to do in my mind — go to Toronto, get a job. But in all reality I just wasn't cut out for university; it wasn't me. I needed to get into the business mode. But I started on a construction site sweeping floors, and I just worked my way up. I worked really hard. And I would say that

10:38when I worked on that construction site for my first job in Toronto — you know, sweeping that floor — I had a 100,000 square foot warehouse, and for five or six months that's all I had to do was keep that floor spotless. Because it was a big grocery store warehouse and they wanted an impeccable cleanliness on site — and that was my job. And I will tell you that I worked as hard cleaning that as I do today trying to get our next big job or trying to get our next proposal

11:02at the door. And I did that and everything in between. And I'm just a believer that the harder you work the luckier you get — like, opportunities will arise, you know, good things happen to people who do good things. And that's why we're so community-involved — it's pretty simple stuff. Yeah, that's so neat that you started, you know, right from sweeping floors and now someone as successful as you've become — I think a lot of our listeners, especially the younger guys that are

11:27listening right now that want to get into construction — did you have a passion for construction before you started, you know, that first job? Or did you think about a construction career at all? No, I was a little — I was a little messed up, to be honest. It's a long story, but it was a little messed up with the whole having the baby at such a young age. You know, in Toronto, being 18 years old, working 90 hours a week — I had to get an apartment fast, and I had

11:47to take care of my family at the time. So I was — to be honest with you — I wasn't thinking about business. Although all through high school I did, you know, paper routes — I had the hockey pools, I mowed lawns, you shoveled driveways. So you knew you were an entrepreneur. And I knew — I mean, my mom dropped me off at the airport, you know, at 18 and I was on my way to Toronto. And I let her down miserably by dropping out of university,

12:10but you know, I said, "Mom, I'll be back — give me five or seven years and I'll be back and we'll start my own company, and it's all going to be great." So it took me eight or nine years, but I did come back and do it. Yeah. She must be happy now. Yeah, she's definitely very proud of her son. And all of her seven kids turned out really well, so — I come from a family of seven as well.

12:27It's not often I sit across the table from someone with the same amount of siblings. We were small — one family back then. Yeah, that's right — a little before my time, but not that far. Yeah. So what about — we can touch on — you know, the past — it's been crazy for everyone in every industry, more so in some obviously. Construction being an essential service, there's a blessing in that, but it's still really tough with all the uncertainty. What's been — for you as the president of a large general

12:56contracting firm in Atlantic Canada and Mill-Right — what's been the biggest thing? I know one of the things we were talking about earlier was material costs, but there's got to be all kinds of things. What's been the hardest part of that for you and your position? You know what, I don't find it's been incredibly tough, to be honest with you. Yeah, we had to pivot, we had to make a lot of changes. And you know, when it first was announced last March that we were going into a

13:23— that was stressful. Oh my god — things were just taking off, the city was booming, there was tons of work, every contractor was busy, any contractor that was very capable was doing incredibly well. And then it was like, oh my god, is the bottom going to fall out of it? So that was the initial reaction. But I was in a good position because I have my real estate company called TierToo Properties — you know, we're starting to be

13:46more active in developments, and we've got a dozen or so of our own developments and probably another dozen we're working on right now. So I said to Chris, our CFO, "I've got to roll up the sleeves — in case the bottom comes out of this thing, we've got to make sure our own developments are strong so that we can keep our employees that we've had for 25 years busy." So I really hunkered down and I

14:07said, okay, I'm going to work seven days a week. You know, I'm going back to the old style. I had things pretty good, and I just put my head down and I haven't taken my head up. But you know, within three to four weeks things kind of went back to normal in our industry. We adjusted really quickly — we got to figure out the PPE, we had our weekly calls with our other competitors. We had a real good thing set up — we were

14:29learning from each other. And I think our industry in general adapted so crazy quickly. It's impressive — this is how the industry responded. It's amazing how our staff and our industry — so nimble, to take something like that, such a big thing — and we just said, "We'll get through this, guys," and we never missed a beat. So we get through the first couple of months and, you know, I'm saying I think it's going to be okay. And then we got back to normal — I mean, you know, I think we actually got the

14:53wage subsidy for the first month and things went back to normal, we got busy again. People realized that hey, this industry is going to keep going, we're going to push through this thing. But then my own developments started taking off. So I can't underestimate — I spend 12 or 14 weeks in Florida over the winter, so my staff has me now 24/7. So I think I'm driving everybody a little crazy around the office. They want me to go back to Florida, they

15:18can't wait for me to go back. So the amount of — all I see is opportunity in front of me through this whole transition. You look at — I like doing what other people aren't doing, I like thinking what other people aren't thinking. Like, we're opening two hotels right now. Everybody says we're crazy, but I think we're going to be up just in time to hit our busiest seasons ever. You know, I'm thinking of a new restaurant concept that I'd like to get involved in. I've

15:41a lot of big development ideas on the go. Do you want to talk about the restaurant vision a little bit? No, I can't talk about the restaurant. You can't release any secrets? Top secret. Come on, Doug. You pride yourself on being a connector. And yes, you know your business and yourself — you're highly involved in the community. I just have a list of things here, I'll read them off quickly. You're the chair on the Canadian Cancer Society, trustee with the Sobeys Award of

16:09Excellence in Business Studies — I know we had Craig Donek on there, you were a mentor for him, we have him on one of our episodes now with PMCO — board member with the Halifax Hurricanes Basketball Club, and then I have about 20 different — past co-chair, past chair of Mount Saint Vincent University, Deaf and Hard of Hearing Youth Advisory Committee member, sorry advisory committee member of Nova Scotia Community College, Mount Saint Vincent University Annual Teleskills Golf Tournament, IWK Healthcare, IWK Foundation Building and Infrastructure, IWK — the

16:44Great Big Dig, Health Board Member at the Halifax Club, Construction Association of Nova Scotia, and the list goes on and on. But just talk a little bit about how you keep the passion up — you're so engaged in the community. And I mean that's amazing. What's that about for you? Like whenever you're connecting people — there's something there, there's a passion there that I just want you to kind of touch on, and I think people will be interested in hearing about. Yeah. I think, you know what, if you want

17:10to dig really deep, I think it probably comes from my family and my mom — just pushing us to do good things in the community. We had to do good things, you know. We mowed the lawn at the church when I was 12. So I think you know it's one of those things your family does a great job of bringing you up — to show you to be a good person. And I always say give till it hurts. When I was with the IWK

17:31Foundation, when I sat on the board of the foundation, they interviewed me one time. They said, you know, "What's the right amount to give?" And I said, "Give till it hurts." A gift — like what the heck — you know what, if it's easy, if you're making lots of money and giving a little. Describe that feeling you get when you do those things and you do give till it hurts and you push so hard — like some of these things that are not easy to accomplish and they take so much

17:49time out of your day, plus you have businesses to run. It must be amazingly satisfying. It's incredibly satisfying. But I think one of the biggest things we can do in life is giving back to our community. And I say it in a very respectful way to everybody, because I think we all have to give in different ways. You know, some people go to the soup kitchen every Saturday, some people give, some people sit on boards, some people

18:15share events. So I think it's really, really important, you know, to find out where you think you can give. But it doesn't matter — any one of those things, giving is a responsibility, it's a commitment to our community, and it's why we're here. So I never looked at it as being work. It's always been — when somebody asked me and it's the right feeling, I just did it. And you always make time for the things that are important in your life — that's what's really important.

18:37Do you still feel that way about that — it doesn't feel like work? These days it's feeling like — I was getting there, I was just about to get there. You know, enjoying Florida and spending some time down there — I've had a place since 2012 down there, so it's been a nice thing to draw me away from work. I've always been a workaholic. But you know, I think this last year or so has been an opportunity to get back and just make sure we're going to come out on top, and

19:04we'll be leading. You know, we want to lead the industry when this thing's all said and done — we want to be a leader. Not the biggest — the biggest thing for me is to make sure that success has been something different for me all my life. But success today is seeing other people's success. So when I see an employee pull in the yard with a new car, or I hear an employee bought a house — that's success to me, because then we've done something together and achieved

19:25and that means so much to you. Your employees — and you mentioned earlier, you know, the pandemic hit — that's one of the things on the forefront of your mind right away: how am I going to keep the great employees that I have, that have helped build the business, how am I going to keep them employed? Is that part of what's driving — when things are — Yeah, you know what, I think it's like a killer instinct, but it's like a killer instinct, you know.

19:45It's like, you have to do it — you know what's the right thing to do. I don't think I've ever thought about it; I have to. You know, I just know I've got to keep busy. I don't want to lay people off — that's been one thing that has been really important to us. As we get bigger as a company, we tell staff we try to keep these people busy all year round — our carpenters, our laborers, our office staff. We had a very short

20:06layoff stint at the beginning of COVID — about, like I said, within a month, with everybody back. And that's kind of your goal. So I don't know if I think about it too much; I just know that's the right thing to do. You don't have time to think about it. I don't think so — probably not. So yeah, you mentioned — yeah, obviously you're very passionate. It's like — do you have certain — I just think it's interesting to ask a person like yourself — do you have certain personal

20:30things that you kind of have learned over the years to create a little bit of balance? Or like, when you know things are heavy or you had a heavy year, just little things that you do personally to keep yourself healthy. I just think that's something interesting to people, because stress — you know, often we don't take it seriously enough and we should take it as seriously as cancer, because stress causes people mental health problems, all kinds of issues in the workplace. So it's, for

20:55someone like you in your position — is there — I don't know if it's advice or personal things you do — just to keep some kind of balance with all the drive and passion that you have? That's a great question. I don't think I'm very good at it. Give us something. But no, you know what — when our first project as a company, back you know 25 years ago, our first big project was Pete's Frootique at Sunnyside Mall. Pete would say, "Doug, the only hour I have

21:20free — we're going to meet at seven o'clock at the gym, from seven to eight." And I said, "I don't go to the gym." He said, "Well, you're going to go to the gym if we're going to meet" — because I told him we had a regular construction meeting. Yeah. And he's like, "No, we've got to meet at the gym." And I'm like, oh man, is this guy on crack — he wants me to go to the gym? So I get there like 6 a.m., get ready, and ironically I've been going to the gym — we have a gym

21:40at the office today. You know, I was at the gym this morning. So, here's something I just knew, you know — Pete had taught me that. Did I know in the back of my head that I'd be going to the gym for 25 years? I mean, I try to balance it. So exercise — exercise is 100%. And you've got to balance in general. Like, I'm one of those guys that, you know, everything I do, I do hard. So yeah, I work hard, I have fun hard, I go to the gym hard.

22:05So you have to try to definitely balance it. I don't think I'm very good at it. Could I learn something? You could probably — I don't know about that, but I'll take the compliment anyway. Yeah, you mentioned a project — Pete's Frootique. Is there any projects over the years that stand out to you in Atlantic Canada that you can talk about — that went extremely well, or that were really good for your company, or just a great experience for whatever reason — and then

22:30maybe one that didn't go so well, and it kind of stands out and you just think, man, I wish we would have done this? Or maybe you don't even know — sometimes you don't even know on a construction project why things aren't going well, they just aren't. There are all these projects they're going through right now — I mean, there's a hundred of each. But maybe you can think of one or two. I can tell you one, and it's not a real big project but it was big enough to

22:51be significant. We just finished it today — it's the law courts over in Dartmouth Crossing. There's a new set of law courts going in next to HRM, and we were asked at the 11th hour to come on board as a construction manager and a partner with Cushman & Wakefield, working for Blaise Morrison. And I can tell you this is a project where, when I say leadership — Blaise's leadership from the get-go was to put a team together that could put this law court in from

23:18start to finish. I think we had 11 weeks — it wasn't a great deal of time, it was extraordinary pressure. Aberto was the designer — did an amazing job with form and design. I mean, they turned around drawings. But it was Blaise's leadership from the client side that said, "We're going to put the right team together, we want to hire you guys." They interviewed our team, we had the choice to pick some preferred subs — one being Arsenault Brothers, who've done the

23:46— and just the leadership level to pick the right team and make people think they were going to be a part of this team that was going to get this unrealistic schedule achieved. And I am impressed. Like, you know, it was a lot of little things along the way — we had our client buying us lunch one day, he brought over one of the companies that served breakfast to everybody. And it was just — as long as everybody did what they said they're going to do, everybody

24:10was getting a pat on the back, they were told they're going to be part of the team. We worked weekends and nights and extra hours. And I'm sitting here — you know, it took us right till yesterday to get done, but they're moving in there tomorrow into this — you know, they're holding court in two days. And it was just amazing for me to watch the leadership all the way down from each company. Like, every sub-trade did a phenomenal job. And I hope they're listening, because it's just amazing when you put a

24:35group of like-minded people in the same bucket and they share a vision — it's like your company taking off. This project was — and again, it wasn't a huge project, but it was just so nice to see that there's still people out there who have a desire to do well and act like a team in this industry. That was great. Yeah. Now the worst case — the worst — I can't — I don't even know — I've got to keep the profanity down on the show. Please. I'm starting to think who

25:03I'm going to offend. No, you know, we did the Farmers' Market — which I remember — it was our first real big project at the time. We built it here at the pier, down at the pier. Yeah, we did that for the Farmers' Market and the pier at the time. And it turned out to be quite a disaster. It was a project that was way over budget. It was ironically — there were only six national contractors that were invited to bid, and we're like, we should

25:27be on that bid list — there are lots of capable GCs that should be on that list. And we were told we weren't. And they gave us an opportunity to pitch and put our best pitch forward, and we did. I challenged the team to say, "Let's make this our best pitch ever." And we got on the bid list. So we're the only non-national GC at the time. And little did I know it would turn out to be the nightmare. I wish I never went to that

25:51— took a few years, took a few years off my life. And you know, for no one independent fault — it was a whole lot of things that just went wrong. And probably didn't have a realistic budget for what they wanted to achieve. And it was a lot of effort. But you know, we go to every single project we do — we take it on, we own it 100% — and we're there. And some go good, and lots go good, and some go bad. But

26:14they go bad sometimes. Yeah. You mentioned you did a Sobeys job years ago on PEI with a couple of my uncles — Bert and Clarence — and my father Carl. Do you remember that one? You said you remembered them working — you were working on the site in those days, right? Yeah, it was Sobeys University Avenue. In those days, we would do — I'm going to plug your family there, just — you know, absolutely. I was the project manager at the time, and I think your dad was a project manager and he still carried a tool belt at that

26:36time, I think — or at least came in pretended like he did. But so did I at the time — I would be on the job sites at night on the night shift, meeting the guys. And in that store in particular, it was a brutal renovation. The store — if I remember correctly — was 24 hours a day: the Sobeys on University Avenue. We had to tear the entire storefront off and expand out the side at the same time, while keeping the grocery store live. So that's what we did, and we were

27:00really good at it. But if you didn't get that harmony with the trades — you know, with that leadership — and that's something we were really, really good at. You know, working around customers that are shopping. That's where we realized what our value was — to live renovations and to the people like Sobeys and different operators at the time. We could adapt — our staff would adapt to that. You know, you couldn't swear on site, you didn't smoke on site — you had to

27:26teach your employees not to do that if you wanted to be a leader. And everybody that tried to compete against us — that was kind of our niche. We could, you know — we had that figured out. So we'd lose the odd one and it would go disastrous, and then we'd just go back to getting the next number of jobs. But that one in particular — oh my god — your dad and his brothers at the time came in there, they got her done, they were the best

27:45trade on site. They did a fantastic job. They'd love to hear that — I have to make sure they watch this episode. Let's — I think you brought up something interesting when you said earlier, sub-trades. I know that's something that means a lot to you, especially as a GC and an owner. Your sub-trades — like, they're going to make or break your jobs. That's safe to say — is that how you feel about them too? I mean, you said you work with a lot of your preferred subs,

28:08you get to have a relationship with them, and then it becomes more like — not necessarily the low cost, but who do we feel comfortable coming in? Like, maybe just talk about what sub-trades mean to you and how valuable the quality ones are and the ones you can trust. Yeah. Sub-trades are no different than your own employees. I mean, you know, we're a relationship-building company — that comes first. I mean, you know, Doug's unique ability is creating good

28:32long-lasting relationships, and I love doing it. It's easy — it's something you know, when you're really good at something or you love doing it, it's easy to do, right? I mean, you just come in every day and you do good things. So the sub-trades — it was always important to make sure they got paid. That was the number one thing for them. So we have a policy at RCS: when we receive owner's checks, we turn the checks back around to the sub-

28:54trades within 48 hours — that's a policy. You know, so it's little things. It's like, you know, I've built the relationship over the years with the subs that, hey, if it's short on cash and they need some money up front, we'll pay people up front. There's nobody that's ever called me and couldn't resolve an issue. I mean, I don't know that we've ever been to court — I think we were sued once in 25 years and I think it got settled out of court.

29:17Pretty good record, hey — knock on wood. Things can go wrong and it can go downhill, but you have to take care of people. And we do a lot of negotiated construction management work, so we don't necessarily sole-source and work with one trade, but we can pick three very capable trades. So I want to make sure for my clients that we've gone out and did the due diligence, got them the most competitive bids, but we're not bringing people into the picture that can't do

29:43the work. So there are lots of great trades out there — there are lots of great tradespeople. As much as people say, "Oh, you can't find good people anymore" — there are lots of great trades out there, and we see it every day. So I value the trades as much as I value our own employees. I mean, we've got to try to work together and be happy together, be successful together. Yeah, I love hearing you say that — just coming from a family, you know, of

30:04in construction as a subcontractor — that's amazing to hear. Maybe I could — I want to run through a few, because when I did your intro I didn't want to read through all the awards because I didn't know if you would be comfortable with that. But maybe I'll read through a few of them and you can just tell me a little backstory or what it meant to you — there's some amazing stuff on here.

30:28So yeah, I'll start here. Quantum Shift finalist 2008 — that would have been around the time where you had some struggles that you mentioned earlier. 2014: ranked 36 in Progress Magazine's 101 Atlantic Canadian businesses. Ernst & Young Entrepreneur of the Year Award finalist in 2013. Best Managed Company program 2012. 50 Best Managed Companies 2015. Halifax Business Awards Business of the Year — Browne's Award — again 2015. Ranked 25th in Progress Magazine's top 101 Atlantic Canadian businesses. General Contract Award recognition Brendan Nobes 2017. CCA Awards 2018 winner of the General Contract

31:15Award at the NLCA Rock Awards. And recently, 2021 winner of Atlantic Business Magazine's readers' choice award of Best Atlantic Construction Renovation Company. Does any one of them kind of stand out and mean more than the others to you and your company? Or they're all great milestones? Yeah, I mean, they're all awesome. And what they do essentially is they give you an opportunity to build your team. So every one of those awards, there was a night out, there was a party,

31:45there was a celebration. So it really gives you — you know, it's part of your culture, it becomes part of your culture. It's not a Doug recognition — most of those are company awards — so we celebrated them all together. We've had great times. I mean, I think the probably the biggest one that stands out for me was the inaugural event — being the chair for the Great Big Dig. So we had an event in Halifax that raised money for the IWK called the Great Big

32:13Dig. And it was Phil Otto who had chaired that event. And Phil came to me and said, "Doug, we'd like to talk to you about taking this event over as chair for the IWK." And I was sitting on the board of the hospital at the time. And I said, "Phil, I don't know — like, you're doing this stuff — I mean, I'm really impressed with what you've done. I was at the event last year and I'm like, it's not really our thing. Like, all your contacts wouldn't be

32:36my contacts, so I don't know how — my fear would be I'd get involved and we wouldn't raise or do better than you did the previous year." And he said, "Oh, that's a great point." I said, "Can we rebrand it?" And he said, "Absolutely." And I don't know if it was Phil or me at the time that said, "Let's call this thing the Great Big Dig" — for the IWK. I said, "Now it's a construction industry thing. I can get all my competitors to

32:58get around it. I know I love my competitors — I'm good friends with a lot of them, and I know they will own this. Our industry will own this." And he said, "Give it a go." So we started a new event called the Great Big Dig for the IWK, and I was the inaugural first chair. I chaired it for three years, and I think in the first year we generated $200,000 for the hospital, and I think it was $350,000 the year I left. And I think

33:20last year they raised upwards of $400,000 to $500,000. And it's gone on to have a multiple of chairs from the industry. Yeah, you know — Corey Bell, John Fleming, Renée — Renée's had it — I'm just trying to think who has it now. And John Wills was the other one. Yeah. And the Fleming's production. So the event has gone on — I mean, they had an event this year, a virtual event, which was incredibly successful. I think it was over $400,000 they

33:46— and I mean, so our industry put an arm around the event and said, "This is for a great cause, the IWK, and we're going to own this thing." So it's just awesome. Wow, what a great initiative that is, and what it's come to be for those kids at the IWK to have a check like that presented to them. We did another one too, Dan — it was the Arthritis Society. So that was where they got to roast me.

34:11So the roast — I heard of that and I wasn't able to make it, but I would have had a few digs in there for you. It was a fun opportunity to be involved, and I highly recommend anybody who gets the opportunity to do it. Like, here you can go and have a lot of fun with your colleagues, friends, business associates, and raise a bunch of money. We raised over $300,000 that night for the Arthritis Society. So yeah, I've seen some of those

34:31roasts on YouTube — like the roast of Justin Bieber. The roast wasn't — that curly wasn't — it wasn't as good as — like no, but I did have some really, really good roasters. So I bet. I was very fortunate — there would have been a lot of people spending some time coming up with some good lines for that one. I wanted to ask you — as a president, as a person in your shoes — just if you could quickly, like what does a day look like

34:55for you at work? What are you spending most of your time on — is it RFPs? Are you involved — are you going to the meetings when you guys have meetings on projects for the tender process? Like, what does a day look like to you, or a week — where's your time spent? I don't have any idea. I think — you know, it's a moving target these days, it's not defined. I won't say it's defined — at one time it was very defined, but now it's just

35:17— you know, the last four weeks have been extraordinary, just trying to manage — prices are fluctuating, we're having supplier issues because of all the history with COVID here. Things are starting to hit us in a different way. So we're having to change on a daily basis. But a typical day for me — they're all different, because I have site days where I try to get out. I typically try to get out once a month with every project manager — we would have

35:44probably nine or ten project managers. I get out once a month and see their sites, and other than that I don't get to a job site unless there are issues. If a client has concerns I get out and I try to put out fires. But my leadership team has done an extraordinary job of trying to get to those fires before they get to me. And for me, it's — the first hours — I'm usually at the gym at 6:30 in the morning, and then I'm

36:06sitting up in my office between 7:30 and 8:00. I get on the emails, get caught up, I always have a stack of to-dos. My to-dos from the previous day I start hitting those off in between calls. And I'm one of those guys — if I'm not doing four things, I'm not doing my best. So I'm really good at being on a Zoom call and doing emails. Lots of those this year — the Zoom calls have been good. I think overall the Zoom calls have

36:31been just a real good energy for me. I don't know why, because a lot of people struggle with them. But I think for me it's just been a better way to present things. I find our job — you know, when we get on a design-build meeting with our client, we're doing a new banquet facility in Fox Harbour right now and we're going through the design-build process — it's extraordinary to bring drawings up, and the owner's able to draw what he sees. And I embrace that, and

36:54draw what I see — yeah, we're looking at it, we're sharing notes. And I think there's never been a more efficient process. You know, working with six designers around the table and consultants — we're all coming up with really, really good ideas and we're looking at the drawings together. And it's never been that efficient. Just zoom in to do the collaboration, annotate on Zoom — and yeah, you can retrieve — I mean, you can bring up so much stuff really, really quickly at your fingertips, where you know you would have had to go

37:20look for a set of drawings in the back room, and "Oh, I don't have that paper with me" if you're on a site going through these meetings. You just wouldn't be as equipped as you are today. So I mean, it's extraordinary what COVID has done for our industry and all businesses. I know you really enjoy probably getting to the site once a month with your PMs and seeing the guys working and stuff like that — is that one of the favorite parts of your job? Yeah, there's no question. It's

37:43disheartening that I can't get there more, because when we do our surveys with our staff, one of the things that long-term employees say is, "We don't see Doug enough anymore." But you know, we just did a SOCA — which is a state of the company address — the other day, where we had all the staff, mandatory, get on a Zoom call. And I presented for an hour and a half on what we've got

38:02— so those are the kind of ways that I have to make up for that. Past history was to go note and just pat somebody on the back and buying coffees — it would never be uncommon for me to show up on a job site on a Saturday with a tray of coffees or a couple of pizzas under my arm. And I always thought that was incredibly — people really, really appreciate it. It's a simple thing to do. Like, for you to show up at this — I

38:23mean, I was on the site on Saturday at the law courts, just to say hey and have a few private conversations with some of the team. Yeah, I think it's one of those things — everyone needs affirmation. Sometimes we don't know how to express that we need it, but we know when we get it that it feels good, and we do need it. And we probably need it more than — so I could definitely see how

38:44someone at the top coming down to a site and just being present and showing appreciation — how far that would go. Goes a long way. Little things go a long way. Yeah. What's your vision for the next five years? I know you said you're innovating, you're building hotels, you've got the restaurant thing going on that you want to keep under wraps. But as far as the retail construction as a general contractor and Mill-Right — where do you see things

39:13going? What are your goals for the next three to five years? Well, I think there are a couple of things that come to mind. I was sitting in the office not too long ago — we were in one of our real estate meetings with our team on the estate side — and I just said, "Concept to keys" — that's our tagline. We were talking about our logo and should we change it, and it's like, it's "concept to keys." And Dave, who had just started with us at

39:38the time, came back with a little wheel the next day he'd drawn up. And he said, like — and I'm like, oh my god, that makes so much sense. So it's kind of like a vertically integrated circle: what does "concept to keys" look like? So, you know, Doug sitting with a guy — an old friend or a colleague that he worked with in the past — and says, "Hey, I'd like to have a pet store in Tantallon." Well, I put my landlord hat on and I say,

40:02"Well, we'll build you a building, we can be your landlord." And TierToo Properties hires RCS to be the contractor, and RCS hires Mill-Right to be their millwork shop. And we just started a new company called PMCO — as I think you had the guys on here — so PMCO will manage the property. And hopefully it's an amazing experience, and in ten years when they go to renovate their place or build on or add to it, they'll hire RCS again and we'll do the circle all over again.

40:26Yeah. So it's "concept to keys" — like, I literally meet people and we start drawing up sketches on a napkin, and then I'm delivering them their keys two years from now. I sense that's something that really keeps you passionate — the vision side of things. You've created these companies and it's just — it's never going to end, you're never going to not be passionate about it. I can't help myself — when a client opens a window. So when a client says, "I might think or I've thought about doing

40:52this" — then I get home and — he was thinking he wanted to renovate his house, and I'll be there and say, "Give me your plans, I want to look at your floor plan." Like, I can't help myself when a client opens the window for help — you don't reach out and help? And sometimes it means nothing to me, sometimes it's a connection that I pass, sometimes it's an opportunity. You know, I met a guy on a plane — excuse me — I met a guy on a plane one

41:14time, and Pete used to always say to me, "You know, you're always on the plane — we'd be sitting on a plane traveling and you're just always busy, you're doing your emails, you've got your earphones on." He said, "Like, do you ever sit and meet the guy next to you?" Like, I don't know if I ever had. So I started thinking about that and I made it a point, for all of my life, doing that. And I've literally met people on a plane — I met this gentleman on a

41:37plane who was running CHC Helicopters, and three weeks later we had a $40 million pitch to him to build a helicopter hangar. Like, you don't realize the opportunities that are missed if you don't reach a little bit, or if you don't get yourself outside your comfort zone. So now that uncomfortable part of my core is my comfort zone — reaching out beyond is my comfort zone. And I don't sit very often next to anybody anywhere that I don't come away with some kind of an opportunity. Yeah, yeah, that's

42:04— do you see yourself as a creative person who thinks outside the box? Yeah, you know, you're really going to ask that question. I'm going to ask it, because I think that's a big part of entrepreneurialism, and it's very hard to make creativity monetize. But if you're in a job where you can't be creative, you're not going to be content. Is that right? You have to be able to have the vision and create. Yeah, you know what, Dan, it's a tough

42:28— everybody's different. You know, we do all these Colby reports and different reports on people's personalities. But we all attack a problem a different way. You know, some people need to take it home and think about it — like, I can't understand when we can sit at a table that people need to get back to you on something. I'm like, "Well, let's just decide now" — it doesn't make sense to me. You know, creativity for me is just natural, but it's not natural for everyone. No, that's right, that's right. Yeah, for me,

42:51I have to be under pressure. If I'm under pressure — like that last week before vacation is the best week of my year. You get more accomplished in that week because I know I'm never going to be able to enjoy myself on vacation if I didn't get every last detail taken care of. Yeah. So that drives me. So I try to put myself under pressure. Diamonds are made under pressure. They're made under pressure. But it's not for everybody. No. And it took me a lot of time to

43:17— that something — that people at the table need to be able to take that home, consume it, come back and give me very good advice the next day. Or maybe talk me off the edge, or maybe say, "You know what, Doug, I don't think your idea is so great." And I'm okay with that. Yeah. Anything that you want to — I know we're going to close out pretty soon here — just wondering, is there anything on your mind, anything you want to close out with to the audience? I know you're a great

43:43member of the Atlantic Canadian construction community — you've played such a major role — and it's so great to have you on the show. So I just want to kind of open the floor. If there's anything you want to close with? Yeah, I think I would close with four things that weren't as important to me a year ago that are incredibly important to me now. I'll say four pillars that will very quickly rise to the top of things we want to think about as a company going forward. And these will

44:08apply to all of our companies. And they're somewhat a result of COVID — and not necessarily a result, but COVID has allowed us to think about them. I will say diversification is a huge pillar. The four pillars for me going forward are: diversification. I say that — when I'm meaning not just with staff and employee picks and who we want to work with, and you know, love to see all our females — we're getting more and more females out on the site all the time.

44:36But just having qualified people — that's a big must. But also, diversification — COVID taught us to be diversified with our jobs. We need to diversify so that we don't put all our eggs in one basket. And if we ever get into another pandemic, we've got a really good diverse portfolio — a diversified portfolio when it comes to real estate. You know, if it had been the hotel business it wouldn't have been a very good zone the last 12 months. So having a diversified list of

45:03companies is going to be important. The other one — there's a lady, Mandy Rennehan — have you ever heard of her? Freshco? I don't know — check her out. She's a lady from Yarmouth. She's an amazing story. And she talks a lot about employee diversification. She's the largest tenant leasehold contractor in Canada, and she does all kinds of work down in the U.S. I chased her online, picked up the phone, was able to get a hold of her one day. We've had a

45:33couple of really great conversations. But she's been on Breakfast Television, Morning America — she's been on every TV show in North America — and she just thrives on employee diversity. And she was telling me that there are companies now that have an employee diversification checklist. Like, if you know whether it be Home Depot or one of the major brands in North America, if you don't check the box on diversification, they don't want you working for them. So that's one. Mental wellness is a huge — I hate the words "mental health" —

46:04I think we need to change the name. It's a big problem, but "mental wellness" just sounds better. That's a great point — mental wellness does sound better. Like, let's worry about keeping people well. And we have our EAP program at the office where people can confidentially call in and get advice. And there are things like that that we have to pay more attention to going forward. And the reason I bring it up — my old boss, who was one of my mentors when I first started — I would say

46:29it was probably '93, '94 — I started working for him in Ontario. Most confident guy I knew. 35 years old, family man, executive — you know, always dressed sharp, really sharp. Incredibly confident. We just happened to reconnect 25 years later — haven't talked to him since I started my business. Talked to him six months ago. And he now speaks about mental wellness around the U.S. — he lives in the U.S. And he's saying, "Doug, do you know that I struggled daily with mental health issues?" I'm like, "John, you're the most confident guy I

47:00— he said, "I couldn't get through the day," and then he had to turn to drugs to get through the day. And then eventually he had to leave the family business because he couldn't cope. And I'm like — you've got to be freaking kidding me, you're the most confident guy — from a visual perspective I'm looking at the most confident guy I know, who dealt with this issue on a daily basis. He eventually took a year and a half off and he dealt with it. He wrote a book, and he's

47:24actually developed a formula to show how much mental health affects every company. Because we all know of a couple of people that are definitely struggling, but how many that we don't know about is what's scary. Yeah. So mental wellness is a big one. Digitization is huge — obviously for obvious reasons, here we are today. On every level, I say digital platform — the best digital platform that I know of today was the cell phone when it came out. When the first iPhone was launched we got our first digital platform. I'm

47:53looking for the next digital platform for our company as a whole — that we can live and die by, from everything from file storage to running projects. And just fully integrated — we need a platform. So the first person that invents that platform — and the number four thing is engagement. In this new world, engaging — we nailed engagement. Like, we have great engagement, we have a really, really good group of people. Culture is number one at RCS. But this new world requires a new type of

48:26— you know, when I do my SOCA address, my state of the company address, how do we engage? So we were able to do breakout rooms in our Zoom calls, we were able to get people chatting within each — because just sitting here listening and watching for an hour is not the coolest thing. We need to engage people. So people are going to be working from home more, they're going to be living differently. So how do we create that new — and those are the top four things. So any details on how you're doing that

48:51as far as getting people engaged when they're working from home? Different specifics — through COVID we had to do the Zoom calls and the social hours and all that stuff. But you know, that's not enough. We have to go deeper. So going forward, we realize now that if you do an AGM or a SOCA, doing it virtually is the way it goes. But you have to have breakout rooms, you have to ask questions, you have to get people asking questions differently.

49:15They can't put their hand up and speak anymore. So it's just little things like that. But yes, we're just touching on it, but it's definitely a pillar that we're going to be spending a lot more time on as we go forward. Awesome. Doug, well, listen — I want to really thank you for coming on the show. I know you're busy and it's just been great for me to be able to sit here. And for all of our listeners and the podcast team, we really appreciate your time and it's

49:37been great having you. Well, listen, thanks for having me. I really appreciate coming. I think what you're doing here, Dan, is a fantastic idea. I told you coming in — I was just almost on your heels, I was going to do this. I think the industry — we will support you 100%. And I hope people really appreciate this, because it takes a lot of time and energy. So thanks for putting it together. Thanks a lot, Doug. Appreciate that. Thank you. Thanks for tuning in to this episode of

49:58the Atlantic Construction Podcast. Be sure to follow us on any podcast platform you use. You can also find us on LinkedIn and Instagram at Atlantic Construction. Be sure to send us a comment or a review — we'd love to engage with you.